HomeMy WebLinkAbout2026-01-14 Planning & Transportation Commission Verbatim Minutes_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Planning & Transportation Commission 1
Verbatim Minutes: January 14, 2026 2
Council Chambers & Virtual 3
6:00 p.m. 4
5
Call to Order / Roll Call 6
6:00 p.m. 7
8
Chair Allen Akin: Welcome to the new year, everyone. I call to order the January 14, 2026, 9
meeting of the Planning and Transportation Commission. 10
11
ROLL CALL 12
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Chair Akin: Mr. Tavera, would you call the roll? 14
15
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Chair Akin? 16
17
Chair Akin: Here. 18
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Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang? 20
21
Vice Chair Bryna Chang: Here. 22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman? 2
3
Commissioner Bart Hechtman: Here. 4
5
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James? 6
7
Commissioner Todd James: Here. 8
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Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji? 10
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Commissioner Kevin Ji: Here. 12
13
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson? 14
15
Commissioner Forest Olaf Peterson: Here. 16
17
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton? 18
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Commissioner Cari Templeton: Here. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: For the record, we have quorum. All are present. 2
3
Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions 4
The Chair or Commission majority may modify the agenda order to improve meeting management. 5
6
Chair Akin: Thank you. Assistant Director Armer, do we have any agenda changes? 7
8
Assistant Director Jennifer Armer: No changes. 9
10
Oral Communications 11
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 12
13
Chair Akin: Mr. Tavera, do we have any public comment for items that are not on the agenda? 14
15
Samuel Tavera: Through the Chair, I received no request to speak on Zoom, and no public 16
comment cards have been submitted. 17
18
Chair Akin: Thank you. 19
20
City Official Reports 21
22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1. Director's Report, Meeting Schedule, and Assignments 1
2
Chair Akin: May we have the City Official Reports? 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Absolutely. Welcome. Good – Happy New Year to everybody. We will jump 5
right in to the usual brief updates from Planning and Development Services, so next slide. 6
7
Upcoming meetings. As you may have noticed when we last met in December, there were a 8
couple of items we anticipated to be on this agenda. Those shifted, and some of that is 9
happening as well. It looks like the item that we thought might be going January 28 is also 10
delayed, so at this time, we do anticipate canceling the January 28 meeting. In February, we do 11
expect to have a couple of items for the – your first meeting on February 11, the Retail 12
Revitalization Ordinance. We hope to bring that back to you, though that is pending a 13
discussion with the Retail Committee, which I'll mention on the next slide. And then a project at 14
800 and 808 San Antonio Road. We do hope to have that ready for you, but again, it is actually 15
pending some additional information from the applicant. So with these housing projects, we try 16
and move them forward as quickly as we can, but occasionally, that means we have to shift 17
things around when we don't have everything that we need. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
A few other notes. Recruitment is now open for a number of our boards and commissions, 1
including 2 seats on the Planning and Transportation Commission and 3 on our Historic 2
Resources Board. We do ask that you spread the word to anyone who you think might be 3
interested in participating for either of those. The deadline for those applications is February 4
18. And then just a heads-up that we may be looking at a joint special – I don't know why I put 5
joint there twice – sorry – a special joint meeting with the Planning and Transportation 6
Commission and the Architectural Review Board to discuss the Cubberley Community Center. 7
They've asked for a date in late February or early March, and so we're looking at some potential 8
dates and will send out a survey to see what availability you all have. And the next slide. 9
10
So as previously mentioned, we do – we will be – staff will be attending the Retail Committee 11
on January 22 to discuss the Retail Revitalization Ordinance. They have also asked to hear about 12
the El Camino Real Retail Node Map. We hope that once they have done that review we'll be 13
able to provide that to Council very soon thereafter for consideration and adoption on their 14
consent calendar. 15
16
Then February 2, we have a discussion of the work plans, including Planning and Transportation 17
Commission but also Architectural Review Board and Historic Resources Board. And we are 18
targeting that meeting for a pre-screening for a potential project adjacent to Town & Country at 19
44 and 88 Encina Avenue. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
I also wanted to remind you of a training that you received an email about that is occurring on 2
the 21st of January. This is a virtual training, and it is a training session on Islamophobia, anti -3
Semitism, and anti-Palestine hate. You are all invited to join. It is remote, and if you are not able 4
to find the email with the registration link, please just let me know; I'm happy to forward it to 5
you again. And with that, it completes my presentation, but we do also have representation 6
from Office of Transportation to update you. 7
8
Chair Akin: Senior Transportation Planner Arce. 9
10
Senior Transportation Planner Ozzy Arce: Good afternoon – good evening, I should say, PTC, 11
and Happy New Year. Happy first meeting. My name is Ozzy Arce, Senior Transportation 12
Planner here with the OOT updates – Office of Transportation updates for January 14. Next 13
slide, please. 14
15
Just starting off with some good news. In mid-December, an OOT staff member, Sylvia Star-16
Lack, who's the Transportation Planning Manager for the City, was honored at the Western 17
Wheelers Club Meeting for the Lefkowitz Award for work benefiting the City Cycling 18
Community. This includes her work supporting the Bike to Work Day, leading the Safety Action 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Plan, and supporting the City's Bike and Ped Plan update as well as the Safe Routes to School 1
Program. So congratulations, Sylvia. Next slide, please. 2
3
On a Rail Grade Separation Project in mid-December, the Council had a meeting where they 4
approved advancing the Rail Grade Separation Project to the next phase, 15 percent design, 5
and they provided decision on the preferred alternatives for each location. Specific to 6
Charleston Road, they provided direction to move forward with an underpass alternative with 7
direct-access ramp. On Meadow Drive, they moved – they provided direction for staff to move 8
forward with a hybrid alternative, and for Churchill, they decided with a partial underpass 9
without landscaping at Churchill plus the complementary ped and bike underpass at Seale. 10
Given the cost considerations, just letting you all know Council also requested a study of the 11
implications of implementing only the Charleston underpass as the current traffic analysis 12
assumes all 3 get constructed. So the short here is that Council advanced the project to the 15 13
percent design phase. Next slide, please. 14
15
Quiet zone updates related to rail. Quick, short update on the implementation of the quiet 16
zones, specifically to the Alma Street and the Palo Alto Avenue train crossing. Just a reminder 17
that this is a multi-jurisdictional project to implement these quiet zones led by the City's OOT 18
Department but in collaboration with the City of Menlo Park. The construction of the medians, 19
as you can see in that photo on the right, has – took place at the end of last year. And with 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
these – this infrastructure installed, the City is now eligible to apply for a quiet zone 1
implementation, specifically at this location, and OOT staff plans to go to Council in late 2
February as part of this eligibility for quiet zone implementation, so moving along at this 3
location. Next slide, please. 4
5
And just some announcements on a Lunar New Year celebration coming up, 2 that I want to call 6
out locally. The City's library is hosting an event with performers, crafts, and friends from the 7
Palo Alto Junior Museum and Zoo on Sunday, January 25, from 2:30 to 4:30 at Mitchell Park. 8
And the second event is on Sunday, February 22, where OOT staff will be tabling in partnership 9
with Safe Routes to School parent volunteers to host an informational table. Tabling provides 10
our local Asian community with an opportunity to direct transportation -related questions to 11
staff, access bike and ped safety-related educational resources, and participate in child -friendly 12
activities. In the past, we've also welcomed Chinese-speaking volunteer interpreters to provide 13
assistance when needed, and so we're very grateful to the Palo Alto Asian American connection 14
and related co-sponsors for providing us with this opportunity to be there. And again, both 15
events are at Mitchell Park Community Center. Last slide, please. 16
17
And just more on a regional news level, exciting news. And maybe you caught wind of it, but 18
public transit riders are now able to pay for their fares tapping credit or debit cards as well as 19
their mobile – the mobile version of their cards. This includes over 2 dozen Bay Area transit 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
agencies, including Caltrain, BART, VTA, and SamTrans. This is in addition to the classic blue 1
plastic Clipper cards that we are familiar with but very much an advancement that was very 2
needed to be able to accept mobile payments. So just wanted to announce that as a good news 3
as well. And that concludes my presentation for January 14. Thank you. 4
5
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Arce. All right. I see Commissioner Templeton and then rapidly 6
following, Commissioner Peterson, Vice Chair Chang, and then Commissioner Ji have questions. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: I just wanted to say thank you for the – sharing the good news. We 9
don't often – we haven't gotten much of that as part of the presentation, but it's very much 10
appreciated. And I just appreciate the training that's being offered against all of the things you 11
listed. You said it was a training on, I'm like, well, it's not – we're not – just to be clear for other 12
people who might not have the context. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner Peterson. 15
16
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you, Chair. Okay. For the Transportation Director, a quick 17
question. I use public transportation all the time, and I did notice the changeover with the blue 18
cards and being able to use the phone, so one of the things that they discontinued was the 19
Caltrain app. You could pay without tagging in and tagging off, because I always forget, and it 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
was really nice. Is there any way – can you put your ear out and hear if you hear any discussion 1
that they're going to bring the app back so you don't have to actually tap on and tap off or if 2
that's just the new way it's going? 3
4
Ozzy Arce: Thank you for the question. I can certainly connect with our folks at Caltrain. I did 5
ride – I think it was yesterday, and I believe someone did show the app on their phone to the 6
attendant, so... 7
8
Commissioner Peterson: Oh, okay. 9
10
Ozzy Arce: ...it may still be an option, but I will look into it. 11
12
Commissioner Peterson: Okay. Thank you. I'm glad I asked. 13
14
Ozzy Arce: If we find out any information, I'll be sure to circle back with the group – with the 15
committee – commission. Thanks. 16
17
Chair Akin: Thank you. Vice Chair Chang. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: A quick question for Assistant Director Armer about the potentially canceled 1
meeting or likely canceled meeting. When will we know – is it at the time the agenda would 2
normally be published or... 3
4
Jennifer Armer: If we are able to get through today's discussion item and – with a 5
recommendation to Council, then we will be canceling the meeting on the 28th. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Thank you. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: The only reason it is not yet canceled is if you needed further time for 10
discussion of this item. 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you very much. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. Commissioner Ji. 15
16
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. My question is directed to Mr. Arce. I notice that in the 17
December meeting of the PTC last year that the BPTP update was scheduled for this meeting, 18
and I didn't see it on the calendar that Assistant Director Armer presented. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: I'll jump in. I believe it was the Connectivity... 1
2
Commissioner Ji: All right. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: ...South Palo Alto Connectivity. 5
6
Commissioner Ji: That's my bad. Yes. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 9
10
Commissioner Ji: It was a bike-related... 11
12
Jennifer Armer: Just to clarify. 13
14
Commissioner Ji: Yes. Sorry about that. 15
16
Ozzy Arce: I was like, wow, I'm happy to bring the plan back again with – if there's a budget. I 17
don't have an answer for you on the Connectivity Project, but I can circle back on the reason 18
why it was pushed. I will say Council did, at their last meeting, provide direction to move 19
forward with El Dorado Avenue, and so that may have caused them to reschedule or 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
restrategize the approach to the engagement now that they have a pre-definitive decision from 1
Council. That's my assumption, but I will definitely circle back with the group. 2
3
Commissioner Ji: All right. Thank you. 4
5
Ozzy Arce: Yes. 6
7
Chair Akin: Seeing no other lights, I have a couple of items. For Ms. Armer, the Islamophobia 8
training, is that intended as a follow-on to the previous training or is it essentially the same 9
purpose? 10
11
Jennifer Armer: My understanding is the anti-Islamophobia training is intended to be in 12
addition to what was provided previously. I don't believe it – I believe it is with a different 13
group who's providing the training. I'd have to confirm, though, but that was my understanding; 14
it was in addition. It was not a make-up training. 15
16
Chair Akin: Yes. We did have several sessions last time around, and I thought it was well 17
worthwhile, but I haven't signed up for the latest edition because I wasn't sure it would be new 18
material, so perhaps that would be good to know. Couple of questions for Mr. Arce. I'm a little 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
confused about Seale. I thought I'd heard some discussion that perhaps the Seale underpass 1
would not happen. Am I just out of date there? 2
3
Ozzy Arce: My notes here do note that they did tack on the ped and bike underpass at Seale as 4
part of that decision, but I can certainly confirm that with you. I know there has been some... 5
6
Chair Akin: Yes. It's quite possible I'm just out of date, but... 7
8
Ozzy Arce: Right. And I can – I will add that to my questions to circle back with the Commission. 9
10
Chair Akin: Okay. Thank you. 11
12
Ozzy Arce: Yes. 13
14
Chair Akin: And one of my kids has already used the new Tap and Ride payment system and 15
gives it a big thumbs-up, so I'm glad that's working. Any other questions, commissioners? All 16
right. I guess that concludes city reports. We'll move on to Agenda Item Number 2. Oh, AD 17
Armer. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Before we do, I did get confirmation that it is actually the same training as last 1
year; it just has been retitled, which is why I thought it was something new, so thank you for 2
asking that question. 3
4
Chair Akin: Great. Thank you. 5
6
Action Items 7
Public Comment is permitted. Five (5) minutes per speaker. 8
9
2. Recommendation to the City Council on an Ordinance Adding a New Section 10
18.70.105 (Noncomplying facility - De minimis exceptions) to Chapter 18.70 11
(Nonconforming Uses and Noncomplying Facilities) of Title 18 (Zoning) of the Palo 12
Alto Municipal Code; CEQA Status: Exempt Pursuant to CEQA Guidelines Section 13
15061(b)(3) (Common Sense Exemption). 14
15
Chair Akin: All right. Agenda Item Number 2 concerning a recommendation to Council regarding 16
de minimis exceptions in noncomplying residential facilities. So Ms. Armer, would you please 17
give the presentation? 18
19
Jennifer Armer: I would be happy to, so thank you, Chair Akin. So this is a minor code change to 20
create a new section of the code – next slide – for noncomplying facilities. So in September, on 21
September 15, the Council directed staff to prepare a text amendment – this is the actual 22
wording of their motion – specifically for the Director of Planning and Development Services to 23
consider or approve de minimis exceptions from noncomplying facilities' regulations, smaller 24
minor adjustments that are not impactful to adjacent properties or public realm for residential 25
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
properties. So this was a result of a series of other actions. First, we had someone who was 1
applying for a building permit of an – on renovation of an existing nonconforming house. It 2
exceeded its maximum allowed floor area, but that's because it was built before it was annexed 3
into the City, so it was built under different rules. Because the code was found not to allow 4
them to demolish some floor area and rebuild it somewhere else because then that would be 5
nonconforming, it would be reinstating that nonconformance, the – there was a director's 6
interpretation to lay out the reason for not approving that building permit. 7
8
The applicant for that building permit appealed the director's interpretation, which is the 9
process, and it then went to Council. They decided to pull it from consent for consideration, and 10
as a result, while they upheld the director's interpretation under – agreeing that the code does 11
not currently allow that sort of thing, that – there was an interest to do so. 12
13
So as a result – next slide – staff prepared text to modify the current code, the current zoning 14
code, to address the following goals: First, the 6-month turnaround for the code amendment as 15
specified by Council; aligning the revisions to the meaning of de minimis, so keeping it as trivial 16
or minor, so keeping it well defined for that; avoid additional process, delays, or appeals for this 17
sort of application; preventing impacts to neighboring properties; aligning with other floor area 18
thresholds and existing code, which is something we do try to do when we are creating 19
something new so that there is consistency and a basis if that is a threshold that's been used 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
elsewhere rather than creating something new without specific justification; and 6, allow 1
flexibility for projects similar in scale to the one proposed by the appellant. Next slide. 2
3
And so this is the language – it's also in your printed packet – that we are proposing to be 4
included in the code. It lays out that this exception would be allowed for up to 250 square feet 5
of floor area that is noncomplying – that's intended to be if it exceeds the floor area – 6
maximum allowed floor area – that up to 250 square feet could be relocated. We're giving that 7
quantity based on – that's also a threshold that's used in association with our Home 8
Improvement Exception in the code, and it is large enough to accommodate the project that 9
kind of started all of this and, therefore, aligns with the direction from Council to allow similar 10
projects. 11
12
We also placed the limitation that this – the noncomplying facility that houses a single-family 13
residential use in a low-density residential zone to try and really focus where this would apply 14
and then stating that if the project is moving floor area above the ground floor that it needs to 15
comply with the processes that are laid out elsewhere in the card – code, so it would need to go 16
through the individual review process if it is a larger amount on the second story, so that's 17
consistent with existing code. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
And then finally, if the project is less than 150 square feet, which doesn't – on the second story 1
doesn't generally require an individual review process, we did reference the objective 2
standards that we have for new single-family homes, 2-story single-family homes that do not go 3
through the individual review process. So that lays out what is proposed and what that is based 4
on, but I am happy to discuss, go through the details, and answer any questions. Thank you. 5
6
Chair Akin: Thank you, Ms. Armer. Commissioners, any clarifying questions before we ask for 7
public comment? I see. Oh. Commissioner Peterson. 8
9
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. So Ms. Armer, the one question is – so I looked into the 10
ADUs for Palo Alto and that you can have an ADU as small as 150 square feet. Does this allow 11
ADUs in yards, or does that fall under the impact on adjacent properties? 12
13
Jennifer Armer: This would not apply to ADUs. ADUs have their own regulations. This could 14
potentially be used for a junior ADU because that is meant to be – is required to be within the 15
existing home or what's allowed... 16
17
Commissioner Peterson: Okay. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...for the home, and so this allows us a little more flexibility there, but this is 1
not talking about detached structures. Also, to clarify based on questions I received ahead of 2
time that this also does not actually have to do with basements. Basements are not counted as 3
floor area for residential uses. 4
5
Commissioner Peterson: Okay. Thank you. 6
7
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Peterson. Commissioner Templeton and then 8
Commissioner Ji. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. I was just wondering what is driving the number 250. Is that just 11
a standard thing or... 12
13
Jennifer Armer: So when we looked at the code, we looked at a couple different thresholds that 14
are there in terms of floor area for single-family residential uses, and there are some areas 15
where we use a threshold of 150, for example, addition to the second floor. And there is the 16
Home Improvement Exception that does rely on a 250-square-foot threshold for additional 17
allowed square footage. And so those were the options we looked at when trying to determine 18
a threshold to recommend. The reason that we are recommending the 250 is based on the size 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
of the project that the Council felt was appropriate. It was more than 150 square feet; 1
therefore, we went for the larger threshold rather than picking something arbitrary in between. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Just a follow-up on that. Thank you for explaining that. So if I were to 4
have made a change like that on my home in Ventura, that would've been a – 25 percent of my 5
house, but it – say, a larger home that would not be commensurate, was it better to use the 6
objective number instead of a percentage, and do you have a – can you explain that thought 7
process more? 8
9
Jennifer Armer: So my recommendation – as staff, our recommendation is to have a square 10
footage number mostly because we're trying to limit this to something that's de minimis that is 11
not a significant change. Yes, in relation to a much smaller house, that change might appear 12
more, but we also don't want to overly limit what somebody with a smaller home could do 13
when somebody with a larger home could make that adjustment when it's existing 14
nonconforming size. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. That's all. I just appreciate the explanation. 17
18
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Templeton. Commissioner Ji. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Assistant Director Armer, for answering my 1
questions from the email. I see it came up again during this meeting. My question is about the 2
language of the – the use of the word "facility" here in Section A. I know that Mayor Veenker 3
had some questions about that during the actual City Council meeting, so I was wondering if 4
you could just elaborate what a facility is and how that plays into this section. 5
6
Jennifer Armer: I'm actually going to see if Attorney Yang is available to respond to that 7
question. 8
9
Assistant City Attorney Albert Yang: Sure. So we use "noncomplying facility" because that is the 10
term that is otherwise used in this chapter of the code, and it just refers to a structure or a 11
building. That's – yes. We're trying to be consistent with the rest of this chapter. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Mr. Yang. And then I have a second question, which is – Ms. 14
Armer, in your presentation, you listed out 6 bullets for the different criteria that we're looking 15
at, and also, I'm looking at Council's motion that's provided on Packet Page 9 that says, "Direct 16
the staff to prepare a text amendment authorizing Director of Planning Services to consider," 17
etc., etc. But my understanding of the way this code works – and correct me if I'm wrong, and 18
also, I guess this is a question for Mr. Yang – is that this just allows – there's no director 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
approval needed because I didn't see a reference to director approval in this section. I just 1
wanted to confirm that I was reading that correctly. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: Yes. Thank you for that question. So anything that is approved through a 4
building permit or planning permit is done so through the authorization of the director, so it 5
includes all of those elements. 6
7
Commissioner Ji: So just to confirm my understanding, by adding this to the code, the director 8
can then cite this section in the approval process? 9
10
Jennifer Armer: Correct. And so the approval of a building permit could move forward based on 11
this section of the code. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: All right. Thank you. Those were my questions. 14
15
Oral Communications 16
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 17
18
Chair Akin: Any other clarifying questions, commissioners? Seeing none, Mr. Tavera, do we 19
have any requests for public comment? 20
21
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Samuel Tavera: Through the Chair, I have not received any public comment cards, and I would 1
invite if there's any members of the public on Zoom that would like to speak to this item to 2
raise their hands. Seeing none, through the Chair, I have not received any requests to speak on 3
Zoom either. 4
5
Chair Akin: Very good. Thank you. All right, commissioners, it's time for our discussion. Vice 6
Chair Chang. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: So I'll just jump in to start this off. I was really pleased with the way staff put 9
this together using reference, other – enabling us to reference existing processes in the code, 10
and it seems to me to be done in a way that's pretty clear -cut for anybody trying to do such a 11
project and, furthermore, doesn't create a whole bunch of work for staff as well as ambiguity 12
because when I had first heard that this was coming to the PTC, I was concerned that we would 13
have to do findings and all of that kind of business. And I think this is much more clear -cut, and I 14
think that staff was – I really like the approach, so... 15
16
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. I have Commissioner Hechtman, then Commissioner Ji. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: So I think this is a kind of a common -sense modification of our 19
ordinance scheme. This last applicant that went through the appeal really exposed not a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
deficiency but a gap, something that legitimately prohibited what really should be harmless or 1
de minimis as we're using in this ordinance, so I'm happy to see this come up. I do think that the 2
250 square feet is an appropriate size for de minimis. Again, we're only talking about 3
noncomplying structures, but if we're talking about a house on a small parcel that's 1,000 feet, 4
250 square feet of that is 25 percent. If we're talking about a 10,000 square -foot house, and we 5
have, I think, some of those in Palo Alto, that's 2,500 square feet of moving, and that's not de 6
minimis. So I also appreciate staff's decision to focus on a one -size-fits-all for this limited 7
exception. 8
9
I did think that there are some refinements to this language, which I provided staff in advance 10
to run them by them. I will say that the bugaboo of ordinance language is found in lacks of 11
clarity, so the last thing you want is some citizen to read this language, think, "Oh, what I want 12
to do fits that," then go hire an architect and spend $10,000 to have them draw something up. 13
Then they come to the City and pay whatever the application fees are for that modification only 14
to be told by the City, "That's not what it means. I understand that you could think it might 15
mean that, but really, it means this." And so we want to avoid that. And so I always strive when 16
we're looking at ordinances to find ways to protect future citizens and staff from a debate 17
about what something means by clarifying where I think that we can. And so I have provided 18
some language for that, but since there are other commissioners who haven't yet weighed in, 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
let's hear from them, and then when it's appropriate, I can come back and display that 1
language. Thanks. 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you Commissioner Hechtman. Commissioner Ji, then Commissioner James. 4
5
Commissioner Ji: Since I already asked some questions, I'll let some other commissioners go 6
first. 7
8
Chair Akin: Commissioner James, then Commissioner Peterson. 9
10
Commissioner James: Yes, I don't have anything novel to add here. I will just say that I generally 11
support the streamlining. I mean, the initial situation, I think it revealed where there could be 12
some improvement. I think the reasoning – I like the way the staff threaded through that and 13
found that. I agree that any ordinance that – or regulation that sort of governs or guides the 14
public – I always want it be in third-grade readability because I think it just needs to be super 15
simple. So I also appreciate that. So I'm just generally happy with the simplification, how that 16
was sort of achieved and it seems like common sense. I even sort of measured out my garage so 17
I had a clear understanding of what 250 square feet was, so it all makes sense to me. Thanks. 18
19
Chair Akin: Thank you, commissioner. Commissioner Peterson. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Peterson: So I just wanted to comment first on Commissioner Hechtman's 2
comment on misinterpretation. Everybody looks at something from their own standpoint that 3
they bring with them when they're reading something, and when you're reading something by 4
yourself, you're not guided in that reading by anybody. You're coming up with your own 5
solutions. Words can have different meanings, different traditions. So I did appreciate that 6
mention that you made that making sure that that exact scenario laid out very clearly. Probably 7
happens a lot, which is where suddenly people hire a lawyer and come in there with their own 8
opinion. 9
10
So the other thing I want to comment on is just – having been on staff myself and having the 11
job of following ordinances that have been given to you by an elected body and you don't have 12
a lot of discretion in how you apply it. I was in charge of the checkboxes that everybody saw on 13
every business in the county during COVID. And that was an interesting – I didn't decide to put 14
checkboxes or how many feet somebody could stand behind somebody else or whether there 15
was a plexiglass shield, but I had a spreadsheet and I was checking them all – 60,000. So the 16
point is that I'm often not a fan of making legis-, an ordinance more complicated, making it less 17
complicated. And I just want to put the idea out there that I'm not opposed to this, and I think 18
it's absolutely necessary but also the discretion of staff that if staff could've just simply had the 19
discretion to say, "Okay, yes, this looks fine; we'll pass it through," rather than having to adhere 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to their interpretation of that. How much flexibility is there in staff because now we have added 1
a new little piece, a subsection, and then invariably there's going to be another subsection, 2
then another subsection at some point, and as there's more and more – and it makes the rule 3
less interpretable because it's more convoluted at some point with all these exceptions to it. So 4
I just think somebody had to speak to that idea that we're evolving into more complex law, 5
which I guess just happens anyways. Thank you. 6
7
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. I'd like to bounce that back to AD Armer because the 8
issue was raised that we did have a different interpretation previously. 9
10
Jennifer Armer: That is correct. 11
12
Chair Akin: So the question is what was the reasoning that got us to this point? 13
14
Jennifer Armer: I'd be happy to provide a little bit more of the background. So the allowance for 15
existing nonconforming structures that exceeded the floor area for renovations to relocate that 16
extra floor area from one part of the building to another is something that staff used to allow. 17
And then we had a project that came through – I think it was maybe 10 years ago – that went 18
through the process. It, I believe, was a commercial project so little bit different, but staff got 19
told quite firmly by Council that, "No, you shouldn't be allowing that floor area to be moved 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
around." And so when this – so that shifted how we were implementing this second of the 1
code. And so then when we got this pushback from this particular project, we said, "Well, let's 2
look at it really closely. Let's make sure that we are really tying to the legal definition of this 3
second of the code," and worked extensively because we were hoping to be able to allow this 4
as we've seen. It was a real minor change, and it was something that staff also is supportive of 5
having the ability to allow this. But legally, the code does not allow it, and that is why we put 6
together an interpretation so that it was in writing, it was clear, it was consistent, and there was 7
an explanation for why. And then, having the opportunity to go to Council, and Council agreed 8
that the current code does not provide Coun -, the staff the flexibility to allow this sort of thing, 9
but they felt it is reasonable, and so that's why they asked us to come back quickly with this 10
additional code. 11
12
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. I appreciate that. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you, Ms. Armer. Vice Chair Chang. Then Commissioner Templeton. Then I'll 15
get a few comments in. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: Can I just ask Assistant Director Armer for kind of the magnitude of the 18
changes that were formerly permitted by the director at staff discretion? Was it specifically for 19
residential? What was the magnitude? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: I don't know the details because that'd be going pretty far back in my memory 2
from the last time I was here as a planner with the City of Palo Alto, but what I can say that it 3
was a general philosophy that it's an existing nonconforming situation. As long as you're not 4
making it worse, we can let you adjust things especially if you're making it better. In this case, 5
we did not recommend something as broad as that because we really wanted to keep within 6
this definition of de minimis, and so we used the – as I said before – the project that was in 7
front of them as a guide and the existing code references that we've mentioned [inaudible 8
38:35]. 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: I appreciate staff's desire to get something done quickly because there's an 11
applicant that spurred this change and these people want to age in place and so we don't – I do 12
not think we want to – I can see ways that this could be improved, and part of me questions if 13
it's an existing nonconformance, then as long as it's making it better, we all – the – as currently 14
written, the ordinance has the right guardrails in place that should prevent any – if we were to 15
increase the square footage beyond the 250 feet, it seems like the ordinance is written such 16
that the individual review process and all the other – and the objective standards are the 17
guardrails that would keep this – that you really shouldn't impact a neighbor. And so part of me 18
says, "Oh, while we're fiddling around with this, why don't we just make it all the way better?" 19
All that said, I wouldn't want to slow this down in any way because we've got a project that's 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
there. But one thought is that if tonight there were agreement on the PTC about an alternative, 1
staff might be able to fairly easily write an Alternative A that is very much the de minimis option 2
as well as an Option B that might be a little bit more expansive that allows people to do things 3
with their house that won't affect – that just doesn't – that won't affect their neighbors. 4
So it's just a thought I had. But yes, I'll leave it at that. Thanks. 5
6
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. Commissioner Templeton. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. I really appreciate staff going through some of the 9
rationale with us early on with my questions. Very satisfied with the answers I received and I 10
appreciate that. I'm familiar with this project as well, and I'm very sympathetic, and I don't see 11
any reason to object to this very rational, practical approach. I hear the comments of Vice Chair 12
Chang, and I am sympathetic with it, but I'm not sure how far we can go because we haven't 13
noticed that kind of discussion. So if that is something that we want to include in the motion, 14
maybe you would need to come back with a noticed discussion so people can participate in that 15
because that's important part of the public process. So sympathetic with it but I think your first 16
point of let's just get this done is the most important. So I'm supportive as well. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Akin: Thank you, commissioner. I'll jump in with a couple of things in ending this first 19
round, and then we'll move on to Commissioner Ji. I will echo the Vice Chair's comments that I 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
really like the approach of delegating the details to individual review and to the objective 1
standards. That gives me good confidence that we won't be creating impacts on the neighbors 2
and that we won't have to create additional process in order to guarantee that. Should we 3
decide to clarify language, one thing that I would like to see is – and this – perhaps I'm just 4
unfamiliar with the way terminology is used in the code, but clarity about "and" and "or" 5
matters a lot to me. If a condition – we have a bunch of conditions that are in a conjunction, it's 6
nice if those are all at the level of the ordinance and then if there are a bunch of conditions that 7
are a disjunction, that those have their own level so that we know exactly which set of 8
conditions applies, and I can elaborate that if that's not obvious. And finally, the only 9
substantive suggestion I might make is the proposed Paragraph (b) requires relocating floor 10
area to the same or lower elevation. And the question I have is given that we have the 11
protections of individual review and the objective standards, is this even needed? Perhaps it 12
could simply be omitted. So what do you think? 13
14
Jennifer Armer: From a staff perspective, we would be open to that change. If that first 15
sentence if Item B were removed, we do agree that the objective standards and IR could 16
provide appropriate protections if that was the will of the Commission. 17
18
Chair Akin: All right. Thank you. I will pass it along to my fellow commissioners to see if anyone 19
else has opinions on that matter beginning with Commissioner Ji. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. My – I just had a quick question for staff. So in the City 2
Council meeting referenced, September 15, one of the reasons why the director decided to say 3
no on the project based on the current code is that it may open up a series – like a Pandora's 4
box of potential other projects that might get approved. I was wondering if staff had any 5
commentary about the language as is, if there are – what the most egregious cases would be in 6
this regard relative to what it was before or just kind of as a standalone question. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for that question, and I'll give an initial answer and then I'll see 9
whether Attorney Yang has anything to add. On the basic level, that's why we kept the 10
proposed language so narrow that it is focused just for residential uses in facilities on low -11
density, residentially zoned parcels so that we aren't then applying this to commercial 12
properties or other types of properties where that was not the target. And so then, I don't 13
know, Albert, whether you've got anything to add to that. 14
15
Albert Yang: I don't. That's all. Thanks. 16
17
Commissioner Ji: Okay. Then I will just echo my fellow commissioners and say thank you staff 18
for the answers to all the questions. I felt like it was very straightforward. And also the speed at 19
which the ordinance was provided; I think it's very timely. We, as previously mentioned, have 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
an applicant that is looking into making changes to their house, and so I really applaud the 1
speed and the simplicity for this ordinance. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Ji. Commissioner Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: So I'm going to get to my language in a minute, but first, just listening 6
to the other commissioners, just want to spend a minute on the legal philosophy of a legal 7
nonconforming facility. So the concept is that a legal nonconforming facility is one that was 8
legal when it was built and then the rules changed, and that made it not legal anymore. And the 9
general philosophy of the law is if you want to leave it there, it's fine, but if you want to start 10
changing things, then join the crowd. Follow the new rules. And in most circumstances, that 11
makes sense. I've had situations where it gives people a choice. If my house was built in the 12
county 6 feet from the property line then it got annexed and the setback is 10 feet , I got 4 feet 13
of encroachment. I want to do a remodel that might require me to remove that 4 feet from the 14
setback and join the crowd; follow the rules. But that's a choice I get to make if I want to 15
remodel past a certain point. And the idea is the rules have changed because what was allowed 16
has been deemed less desirable whether it's setback or height. And so as a general matter, I 17
think the idea of ending nonconformity over time is a good thing. And what we're looking at 18
tonight actually swims against that because it allows nonconformity to stay. But as I said in my 19
first remarks, it's kind of a common sense thing here. It's a small thing. It's designed so it's not 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
going to adversely impact neighbors through the application of the regulations, and so I think 1
it's the right move. 2
3
So I did have some language, and I think Ms. Armer may have prepared a slide that shows that. 4
And so if she'll pull that up, I'll just walk the Commission through these few changes and then 5
get reaction or not. And what's I've done is anything I've suggested to be added is underlined. 6
Words that I think should be taken out are crossed out. So in the preamble, I added this 7
"provided that the noncompliance is not increased." Maybe you might think it's implied, but 8
again, my thought here is for clarity. We don't want to imply it, we want to state it. So that 9
might just stop people right up front from proposing 350 feet get moved, which would increase 10
the noncompliance. And that language, I can't remember if it's .080 or .090 of the existing code, 11
but it's drawn straight from that. So it's a repetition, which hopefully will get people realizing 12
what this limit is. 13
14
My next change is – and this really gets to what the Chair was talking about – adding the word 15
"and." I don't want – we don't want somebody to read this ordinance in the future and say, 16
"Well, I comply with A because I'm a single-family house, so I don't have to worry about B or C 17
because any one of these gets me in the door. And so I've added "and" here to eliminate that 18
possibility. The threshold is are you a single-family home in a low density? If so, proceed 19
further. In B, you see I changed "elevation" to "floor," but having heard the Chair's question and 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Ms. Armer's response, I'm actually comfortable with eliminating that sentence and just having B 1
start with "any proposal to relocate" as it does after that sentence. Then we get to the end of B. 2
I've got the word "or," and I wasn't positive about this, so maybe staff can help me. Are there 3
situations where B and C could apply, or is it just going to be one or the other, or is there a 4
possibility, something where neither B nor C will apply? 5
6
Jennifer Armer: Would you like me to jump in? 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. That's a good time. 9
10
Jennifer Armer: Again, I will start and then, if Attorney Yang would like to add anything, I'll 11
invite him to speak up as well. I think it can work in the way that you've provided it. I think 12
having the "and" and the "or" may provide some confusion. I think that "and" could be used in 13
both places because if you go in and you say, "I need to comply with these sections," but they 14
don't actually apply to our project, then it bumps you down to the next one, which is the less 15
than 150 square foot. And so you will comply with all of the applicable provisions of those 16
sections in B because if it's smaller than 150 square feet, then they don't actually apply. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: But I think we are legally okay with either way as proposed or both ands. 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So as always, when we're talking about an ordinance, I always 3
like to let staff cogitate on it and make a decision of whether and or or should best be there in B 4
and that I hope our motion will give them that flexibility. And then the final 2 changes I had 5
were C. So this whole new ordinance is talking about relocation. Here in C we've used the word 6
modification. If that is supposed to mean something different than relocation, then we should 7
really spell it out. I suspected that it wasn't intended to mean something different and so let's 8
use the same word so that people don't say, "Well, if this says modification…" which is different 9
from the relocation. Those are my 2 changes there. that was my effort to bring some clarity to 10
this so that we have fewer disappointments and disputes. Thanks. 11
12
Chair Akin: Thank you. I have a question for you before we move on to Commissioner 13
Templeton and then Vice Chair Chang. So pedantically, as I read this, I would look for something 14
like Item B being 1 or both of the following 2 conditions apply and then have a B1 and a B2, 15
which covers the material in these items. Is that the sort of thing you're looking for? 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Actually, as Ms. Armer was talking about "and" and "or," I was 18
picturing B1 and B2. So yes, I think that would add some clarity. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Great. Thank you. Commissioner Templeton. 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: At least 3 of us up here are itching about the Boolean logic you're 3
trying to insert here. I guess it might even be more. But I like the proposed idea of separating, 4
like you can't "and" and "or" without parentheses. You're not laughing, but it's funny for math 5
nerds. Anyways, yes, I think having a section where it's really clear that you either – it can only 6
be or under this tree and you can and this tree and this tree, but you can't mix and match 7
because otherwise that lack of clarity will scream at all of us and we'll have to go have hives or 8
something; I don't know. But yes, if we're going to do this – I was not anticipating a Boolean 9
logic exercise, but I'm here for it. So if we decide to rewrite it to that, we can. But I'm glad. It 10
sounds like we have a few people here willing to help with that, and you sound like you're on 11
board with that too, so cool. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: That was much more detail than I was prepared to go into, but I'm glad you did. All 14
right. Vice Chair Chang. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: Thanks, Chair. Thank you for going into that because my immediate reaction 17
upon Commission Hechtman's – the text that's on screen right now was "ooh, this is not going 18
to work; this is confusing." So thank you, Commission Hechtman for all the changes. I also am in 19
favor of something like a B1 and B2 to make it really clear. I did have a question for you. So this 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
– I like the addition of the "provided the noncompliance is not increased." And specifically, in 1
the example that we've been talking about most recently with stream protection where this 2
would enable somebody to choose. You can leave the noncomplying floor area that is in, say, a 3
stream setback, but you can't go further into the stream setback by moving your – by relocating 4
the 250 square feet. So I just wanted to ask you, when you say "provided the noncompliance is 5
not increased," is that going to be something that we think is clearly understandable to 6
everybody given the appellant's – there's a back and forth between the City and the appellant 7
regarding the type of noncompliance. And so does compli -, if it's nonconforming in terms of 8
being too much GFA and as long as it doesn't increase the GFA that's fine, but there could also 9
be, to your point, noncompliance into a setback or into height or something. So I would love to 10
hear from you about your thoughts there. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Chair, may I? 13
14
Chair Akin: I think it's appropriate to respond. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So again, I took this language from either .080 or .90, and I 17
think my read of its intent in those sections is there are different kinds of noncompliance and 18
we don't want to increase any of them. And so in one circumstance, it might be a GFA is already 19
exceeded. In another it's a setback is invaded. There are probably houses with both of those 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
things, and I think that this language would preclude any of them from getting worse. So the 1
GFA is kind of simple because I've got 2,000 feet where I'm only supposed to have 18 00. I'm 2
going to move 200 feet some other place. The setback's a little more complicated because 3
that's locational, and there are some jurisdictions actually that have ordinances that say, "If 4
your house is already invading the setback, you can" – and maybe Ms. Armer has seen this; you 5
can follow that line and extend the nonconformity a little bit. There's some de minimis kind of 6
thing because sometimes you want to add 5 feet to your dining room; you don't want to have 7
to tear the whole thing out. And so that's another example that I think has kind of the same 8
spirit as this. 9
10
Jennifer Armer: The City does have language along those lines that allows an extension of an 11
existing nonconforming encroachment up to a certain extent so that you don't have weird 12
jogging in of a wall kind of thing if you're adding on to the back of your house. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: So I guess that begs the question of whether this language, provided 15
that the noncompliance is not increased, would conflict with that existing ordinance, which 16
could be argued, allows an increase in the noncompliance by adding square footage in the 17
setback. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: My nonlegal understanding is that that would not be creating or increasing the 2
nonconformance because the code does allow that sort of extension. 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. I like that answer. It sounds right to me. And again, I think 5
we're going to get through this tonight and not have to come back on the 28th. And so that's 6
something that staff can just think about on the way to Council. 7
8
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner Ji. 9
10
Commissioner Ji: So actually, thanks Commissioner Templeton and Vice Chair Chang for asking 11
and saying almost all of the comments that I already had. So great minds think alike. I second 12
the B1, B2 – the logic really got to me a little bit also staring at the screen, so that makes 3 of 13
us. So I would second their thoughts on that. And then I just wanted to kind of crisp up and 14
follow up on Vice Chair Chang's comment. So what would happen, I guess maybe either 15
Commission Hechtman or Mr. Yang, about this kind of coinciding noncompliance with the 16
setback versus the floor area with the statement that Commissioner Hechtman has added 17
here? 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Albert Yang: Yes, so I guess it really depends on what direction the Commission would like to go 2
in terms of the flexibility that we're providing. So I think staff's initial intention with this 3
ordinance was just to accommodate situations where the floor area was the noncomplying 4
feature where you had too much floor area. But I think what Commissioner Hechtman has 5
pointed out is it's actually writ-, it's written in a way that could be interpreted more broadly. So 6
if you had a home that was complying for floor area but part of it was in the setback, you could 7
say, "Oh, that portion of my home, maybe I have 400 square feet that's in the setback," that's 8
noncomplying floor area because it's in the setback. And you could – if you wanted, you could 9
have this ordinance allow that portion of the home to be relocated. If that's the intent, I think 10
we have other language that would clarify that could apply in those situations as well. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: And if you're taking square footage that is nonconforming because it's within a 13
required setback area and you're moving it elsewhere, it would not be allowed to encroach into 14
another setback, right? And so then it becomes complying floor area unless it is also exceeding 15
the maximum floor area. So I would not foresee that as being a concern. 16
17
Albert Yang: Well, I guess it – I think this language raises the question about that. So if you had, 18
for example, 400 square feet that was encroaching 10 feet into a setback, we would – this 19
language would clearly allow it to be moved in a way that reduced the encroachment into the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
setback. I think it could be interpreted to allow to be moved into a different setback as long as 1
it was not encroaching as much. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: So if you wanted – if the Commission wanted to avoid that, we could add some 4
language here to specify clearly that when we're talking about non -complying floor area, we are 5
talking about floor area that exceeds the current limits to gross floor area, if that is a concern 6
and an interest in the Commission. 7
8
Commissioner Ji: Yes. So just to kind of circle back from this little interlude we took, I would like 9
to hear from the rest of the Commission their thoug hts on this language because again, I think 10
all of us here at the beginning agreed that the reason why we like this ordinance is that it's 11
simple and clear. So I just want to make sure that any language that we end up agreeing upon 12
continues to maintain those characteristics. Yes. So I'd love to hear from the rest of the 13
Commission about this topic whenever − if people have thoughts. Thank you. 14
15
Chair Akin: Commissioner Peterson. 16
17
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you, Chair. So recently in the news, there's a large compound 18
that one of the Palo Alto residents has constructed – there might be multiple ones − but there's 19
one in the news. And so I'm wondering if something like this gives a loophole where if 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
somebody is incredibly motivated to look for loopholes and figure out different stuff, what 1
stops somebody from moving say 250 square feet of noncompliance per year or every 6 months 2
and making it a progression of a stacked project? It's no mystery that people do that. I mean we 3
have a large neighbor next door that's famous for it. And I think there's even – maybe even 4
proposed was to add to our planning was that you could only do so many projects per 5
timeframe. And so when I'm looking at this, I mean I'm trying to think through like if I was 6
building something and that would be the first thing I would see with it is I'd be like, "Oh, this is 7
250 square feet per year." The other one I wonder is if I have multiple outbuildings, can I swap 8
these between a detached garage over to my main house? What if I own 3 houses or 9
something, can I start moving things around between where I have amalgamated different 10
properties into now one property. Just what are some answers to timing and moving between 11
detached buildings – or outbuildings, I guess would be the question. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for that question. I would say that first remembering that this is only 14
for existing nonconforming. So it's only a situation where a house was built and the current 15
rules would actually limit it to a smaller size; that that's what we're looking at. So you could 16
potentially have a parcel that's got a house on it that's significantly over the maximum floor 17
area but significant nonconformance is relatively rare. And then when we think about moving 18
from one parcel to another, that is not something that would be included here. If they were 19
allowed to merge the lots, then it's – again, it's based on the existing house size and you 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
wouldn't be allowed to do a lot merge that created a non -conforming situation. So if – I mean if 1
we were getting into further details like that, then I think we're bringing this into an area where 2
it might need to be a discretionary kind of review. Those are my initial thoughts based on your 3
questions. 4
5
Albert Yang: And I guess I just wanted to address the question about timing. There's nothing in 6
this right now that would prevent someone from sort of submitting serial permit applications if 7
that – as Ms. Armer said, it's probably not practically an issue because I don't think that we 8
have a lot of properties that are nonconforming in a significant way where someone would be – 9
would have a 1,000 square feet that they would want to move in 4 separate projects. But if that 10
is a concern, we could add a provision that says you can use this once per property. 11
12
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. Appreciate it, Mr. Yang. Just checking the edge cases. 13
14
Chair Akin: All right. Commissioner Templeton. And then I have a question. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: I think that Mr. Yang pretty much covered it. I mean I don't think 17
that is in scope but there's a – I'm sure you know this. The old saying about boiling a frog, right? 18
So – but I don't think that's in scope. It's an interesting question but I think we are not 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
regulating timing of doing things that are allowed even though there are opportunities for 1
people to exploit any kind of loopholes. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Today we are not doing that. Sorry. Go ahead. 6
7
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Seeing no other lights, quick question for me. I like the 8
language that Commissioner Hechtman has proposed here provided that the noncompliance is 9
not increased. And I find myself feeling fairly sanguine about this because this section would be 10
applied, as I understand it, only at the director's discretion. So the director might decide in one 11
of these oddball cases that noncompliance has been increased and so this provision would not 12
apply. So that gives us a little bit of a backstop in case something comes up that we haven't 13
anticipated. Commissioner Hechtman. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: So again, just to reiterate, I stand with the 4 or 5 of you and possibly 16
Mr. James on the B1, B2 concepts. Again, I was trying to get at that with and/or and struggling 17
with it because coming in here tonight, I didn't fully understand whether what's in B and what's 18
in C could overlap or not. So I like that. And when I was first looking at this, one of the questions 19
I wrote is, "Does this only apply to where gross floor area is exceeded? And should that be the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
focus of it?" But as I thought through it – again, I saw that that language, well it doesn't really 1
have that limitation built in, and so that made me start to think about side yard setbacks, which 2
in my work, that's where I have seen the most legal non-conforming facility improvements. And 3
I should mention that this whole notion applies to a very small minority of houses in Palo Alto 4
because the ordinances in Palo Alto really haven't tightened up over the last 50 years in ways 5
that – well, we used to allow 45 feet; now we only allow 35. It really isn't that way here. I know 6
there are examples, particularly where the City annexed land; that's where I have historically 7
seen it in multiple jurisdictions. 8
9
So this is not going to be a flood gate-opening ordinance no matter what we do with it because 10
there just aren't that many. If it's the will of the Commission − we can limit it to the 11
noncompliance of exceedance of GFA. We can do that in the first sentence before this, 12
"provided that the noncompliance has not increased." Again, I like the idea of having more 13
flexibility for more kinds of noncompliance, so I'm not recommending it but I'm supportive if 14
other commissioners feel strongly that we really need to clamp this down to just that small 15
topic. I'm kind of ready to make a motion if… 16
17
Chair Akin: We have a… 18
19
Commissioner Hechtman: When people are ready for it. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Thank you. We have a question from Mr. Yang. 2
3
Albert Yang: Yes, I – so I just want to clarify, Chair, you made the comment that this section 4
would be applied in the discretion of the director, and that's act ually not our intention. We're – 5
we tried to create this in a way where there was not the need for discretion on the part of staff. 6
Because that would imply that there were – there was – there would be the need for an appeal 7
process as well. And so – yes, we are trying to make this something that is ministerial, 8
something that you could come to the − get a building permit and the staff there would be able 9
to tell you whether or not it applied. 10
11
Chair Akin: Okay. Thanks for that clarification. I used the word "discretion" perhaps when I 12
should not have but that's a useful clarification. Let's see. I have Commission Ji. 13
14
Commissioner Ji: Yes, I had a question possibly for Mr. Yang about the wording on Section B 15
about the usage of elevation versus floor here. So the premise for my question is that when I 16
went to Stanford, Green Library has 3 different flooring systems, right, across the same 17
building. So I was wondering if there are legal – there is like a legal definition for floor and 18
whether or not like how that applies here. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Albert Yang: Yes, there's not a clear definition of floor. I think we use the word "elevation." You 1
could use height. But again, as Assistant Director Armer said, we could also just get rid of this 2
first sentence and that would be all right as well. 3
4
Commissioner Ji: Okay. So with that statement, I am supportive of getting rid of the first 5
statement – sentence. Just so that we just ignore all of the – basically, the last 30 seconds of 6
our lives that I just wasted. 7
8
Chair Akin: Very good. Do we have any other comments? My last, I believe, is that I am 9
supportive of not restricting this to gross floor area. So my preference would be that we not 10
bake that into the ordinance. All right then. Any further comments? If not, I suspect we have a 11
motion in the works. Commissioner Hechtman. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. I will move the staff recommendation with the following 14
modifications to the language proposed by staff for the ordinance in our staff packet. In the 15
preamble, the addition at the end of, "provided that the noncompliance is not increased." At 16
the end of Subpart A, the addition of the word "and." Subpart B, the first sentence to be 17
deleted. And then what remains of B and C become B1 and B2 with an "or" between B1 and B2. 18
And then for what was C, what's now B2, change the word "modification" in 2 locations to 19
"relocation" in those locations. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Second. 2
3
Commissioner James: You can modify in that way. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: You can modify in that way. 6
7
Chair Akin: Very good. Commissioner Ji. 8
9
Commissioner Ji: Wait. Sorry. I have a very small question. On Packet Page 13, I noticed that the 10
last signature line says, "Director of Planning Community Environment" while the rest of the 11
packet refers to Planning and Development and Services. So I just had a quick question about 12
that, Ms. Armer. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: That is legacy because in the code, it still refers to that title, which is what our 15
department used to be called. 16
17
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Good. Any further discussion, Commissioners? All right. We have a motion on the 1
table. May we have a vote? 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Commissioner Ji? 4
5
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson? 8
9
Commissioner Peterson: Yes. 10
11
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James? 12
13
Commissioner James: Yes. 14
15
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton? 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 18
19
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang? 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin? 8
9
Chair Akin: Yes. 10
11
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries 7-0. 12
13
Chair Akin: Very good. Thank you all. I think that's a good outcome. And hopefully, the Council 14
will be able to move this forward as quickly as possible. 15
16
APPROVAL OF MINUTES 17
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 18
19
3. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary & Verbatim 20
Minutes of October 29, 2025 21
22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: On to Agenda Item Number 3. That's the approval of minutes for the meeting of 1
October 29, 2025. Mr. Tavera, do we have any public comment? 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Through the Chair, I have not received any public comment cards submitted in 4
person, and again, I would welcome if there's anyone on Zoom that would like to speak to this 5
item to raise their hand to let me know. I see no raised hands on Zoom. 6
7
Chair Akin: Very good, then. May we have a motion? 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Move approval as revised. 10
11
Commissioner Ji: Second. 12
13
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James? 14
15
Commissioner James: Yes. 16
17
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton? 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji? 2
3
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 4
5
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman? 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 8
9
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson? 10
11
Commissioner Peterson: Yes. 12
13
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang? 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 16
17
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin? 18
19
Chair Akin: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries 7-0. 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you all. 4
5
Commissioner Questions, Comments or Announcements 6
Chair Akin: It's time for Commissioner Questions, Comments, and Announcements. Does 7
anyone have anything to offer? Vice Chair Chang. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: So sorry to keep us all here. I just wanted to flag for my fellow commissioners 10
that I noticed both this – for this meeting as well as the prior meeting, that the public 11
comments that we've received in batches – so kindly batched by Mr. Tavera − are like 12
particularly for this time – almost all of them − all but one were actually written by folks who 13
intended for us to receive those comments in time for our deliberations on the 10th. And so I 14
just wanted to – I already raised this with Assistant Director Armer and Counselor Yang today 15
but we're looking at a way to – well, first of all, let me back up and say that formerly, 16
Commissioner Templeton, Commissioner Summa, and I were – we had elected to receive all the 17
public comments pushed directly to our email; that stopped on October 25. And I liked that 18
former system for me. I often just funneled them away and didn't read them but if I needed to 19
read them, I could, and most importantly, they were searchable for me, which was nice. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
And that would have been really relevant for today because I believe in one of the former 2
batches of public comments that we received from Mr. Tavera or his predecessors, we actually 3
had received a public comment from the appellant that kind of started this whole legislation 4
that we reviewed today. But I couldn't find it and was hoping to find it. And so that was kind of 5
what spurred me to look at it. So I know that staff is – so just additional information for the 6
Commission, there is a California law that requires that when we Commissioners receive a 7
public comment, the public does pretty much concurrently. And so that's one of the limitations. 8
Furthermore, many – I think Council might have a limitation; I don't know if Ms. Armer has 9
information on like the deadline for public comment submission. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: Generally, that is noon on the day of the meeting. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: Right. So my request to staff, which is that if there is a cutoff, that we make 14
that very clear in our agendas, so that the public isn't operating on the assumption that we 15
have received public comments that we actually can't – that we won't receive and cannot act 16
on. The other example that I had was when the applicant for the Geng Road project, that we 17
heard on December 10, wrote us a public comment asking if we wanted to meet with them and 18
had suggested several times. By the time I opened Mr. Tavera's PDF, I – because it wasn't 19
coming into my inbox and like right in front of my eyes, I no longer personally had the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
availability to meet with that applicant, and as you all know, we're all volunteers, so when 1
we're available, we're available. And while many a times we might not be able to respond to 2
somebody, it would be nice if we could respond to somebody assuming that we had the time to 3
read that public comment in time. 4
5
And then finally I had wanted to follow up with that applicant to say, "Hey, I'm sorry. I didn't 6
read this until now, which is why I haven't responded." But because it was received in PDF 7
form, I didn't have his email address and couldn't respond to him. And so for all those reasons, I 8
– I've raised these issues – I want to – us to be able to be responsive to the public. And so I just 9
wanted to kind of share all that thinking with my fellow commissioners. Thanks. 10
11
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. That triggered a lot of other comments here. Commissioner 12
Templeton. Then Commissioner Ji. Then Commissioner Peterson. 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. I'm going to make a comment. The primary purpose of my 15
comment is perhaps we should discuss this with staff, if we're not allowed to discuss it tonight. 16
But whatever reasons were provided to the Vice Chair are absolutely not credible. There is no 17
reason that you can't provide us those emails and the public at the same time. Literally, the 18
world operates on this kind of technology. Like this is unacceptable. So if that is the reason it's 19
not happening, then we need to have a serious talk with whatever department staff is liasoning 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
with that is blocking us from getting this information in a timely manner. So I would offer 1
myself up for participating in an ad hoc or if we agendize this for our future meeting. I would 2
love to be able to get to the bottom of this. But technology, like being able to share an email 3
with a few individuals and the public, is not a mystery. It is not difficult. Is unacceptable to be 4
blocked from that. Thank you. 5
6
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Ji. 7
8
Commissioner Ji: I echo my fellow commissioners' comments but I had a question, which is 9
what can I even say given that's not an agendized item. I'm not super familiar with that. So I 10
was wondering if staff could comment on how we can comment on this. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: I would welcome your thoughts, input, and requests via email if you would like 13
as we do try to establish some clear procedures and information for the public on when and 14
how they can provide public comment. I'm also, based on this discussion, considering whether 15
there could be a discussion of whether, for example, an offer from an applicant to meet with 16
commissioners is actually public comment or whether it's just correspondence. I'll need to look 17
into the legal components of that. So what I would say is thank you for this input. Thank you for 18
these comments. And I would welcome any additional thoughts the Commissioners have via 19
email, as I look into it further. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Albert Yang: And I guess I'll just add that the general guideline is that you can make brief 2
comments, maybe in the range of a minute or 90 seconds on items that aren't on the agenda. 3
That's fine. 4
5
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. Then I will take my minute to 90 seconds to say that I concur and if 6
– I suspect that the law probably did not change on October 25 of last year. But if staff needs 7
help providing some kind of email support, as someone who's previously done technology 8
consulting for other agencies, I'd be happy to work with staff on a way to make the information 9
provided to the Commission and the public at the same time. That's all. 10
11
Chair Akin: Commissioner Peterson. 12
13
Commissioner Peterson: I just wanted to say the public apparently has been more than happy 14
to email my email that was posted on the website. I get a lot of emails, invitations to go out and 15
meet. I don't even know how many coffees I've had with people. It's been continuous. So I 16
hadn't even considered the public comment in there because it seems li ke I get the public 17
comment. It comes to me and − so – but then I heard your comment as well. It's more about 18
the – yes. Is – are those emails that come directly to us – are those public comment? I don't – 19
it's – no. Okay. I didn't want to say that then. Okay, I'll leave. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided t hat
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: No, you didn't do anything wrong. 2
3
Commissioner Peterson: There you go. So I just wanted to say the public apparently has been 4
very free to be contacting me. And I appreciate it. I really enjoy all the time I spend with the 5
public. 6
7
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. And I'll second that. If you do have a personal email 8
address published, people do take advantage of it. All right. Any further questions, comments, 9
or announcements? If not, then we are adjourned. 10
11
Adjournment 12
7:28 p.m. 13
14
/ekl 15