HomeMy WebLinkAbout2025-12-10 Planning & Transportation Commission Verbatim Minutes_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Planning & Transportation Commission 1
Verbatim Minutes: December 10, 2025 2
Council Chambers & Virtual 3
6:00 p.m. 4
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Call to Order / Roll Call 6
6:00 p.m. 7
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Chair Allen Akin: Good evening, everyone. I call to order the December 10, 2025, meeting of the 9
Planning and Transportation Commission. 10
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ROLL CALL 12
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Chair Akin: Mr. Tavera, would you call the roll, please? 14
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Samuel Tavera: Yes. Chair Akin? 16
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Chair Akin: Here. 18
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Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang? 20
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Vice Chair Bryna Chang: Here. 22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman? 2
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Commissioner Bart Hechtman: Present. 4
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Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James? 6
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Commissioner Todd James: Here. 8
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Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji? 10
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Commissioner Kevin Ji: Here. 12
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Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton? 14
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Commissioner Cari Templeton: Here. 16
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Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson? 18
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Chair Akin: He should be remote. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Oh. And… 2
3
Commissioner Forest Olaf Peterson: Here. 4
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Chair Akin: Thank you very much. 6
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Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions 8
The Chair or Commission majority may modify the agenda order to improve meeting management. 9
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Chair Akin: Assistant Director Armer, do we have any agenda changes, additions, or deletions 11
tonight? 12
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Assistant Director Jennifer Armer: No changes, though if everybody could check their iPad to 14
make sure it's muted. We'd have a bit of an echo coming from one of these. 15
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Commissioner Hechtman: Working on it. 17
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Samuel Tavera: Yes. It's on my [inaudible 1:07]. I'm trying to work on that right now. 19
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Jennifer Armer: In progress. 21
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Yes. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: Thank you very much. 4
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Chair Akin: All right, good. Do you want to delay it until there is a confirmation or do you want 6
to go ahead? 7
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Jennifer Armer: No. I think we can go ahead as soon as we can get the presentation shared. 9
We'll just give that a moment for the technical issue because that can be distracting. And I 10
actually – if you'd like, Chair, can jump in and get started with the Director's Report. 11
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Chair Akin: Or we should have public comment for items not on the agenda first… 13
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Jennifer Armer: Oh. 15
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Chair Akin: …but I just wondered if you had any changes, additions, or deletions. 17
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Assistant Director Armer: No. No changes, additions, or deletions. 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Oral Communications 1
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 2
3
Chair Akin: With that, do we have any public comment requests for items that are not on the 4
agenda tonight? 5
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Samuel Tavera: Through the Chair, at the moment, I've received one request to speak, so I'd 7
like to invite Mark W. at the moment. 8
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Chair Akin: Will the public speaker stand? 10
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Mark Weiss: Here. Do I sit? 12
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Chair Akin: Yes. 14
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Mark Weiss: Good evening, staff and commissioners. Thank you for your leadership and service. 16
My name is Mark Weiss, and I'm here to speak briefly about live music and specifically live 17
music as it pertains to the public sector and our use of resources, staff time, commission time, 18
etc. And I was noticing in the news, and I attended it in person several times over the couple 19
years, the Third Thursday program, which was sort of a public-private partnership between 20
some individuals, merchants, landlords, some staff time, Stanford for a little bit, the 21
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Development Office, I think, and it sought to use, from my estimation – as someone who works 1
in the music world – it sought to use live music as an attraction that would be like stimulus 2
spending for the restaurants and the merchants and, I guess, indirectly the landlords. And I 3
thought it's a worthy idea, although there were a lot of flaws inherent in the idea. And so I hope 4
– it's sort of an inflection point, which is just as well. I think it should really be a seasonal 5
program from April through October; that's one recommendation. And I think – I hope we do 6
put some resources in terms of staff time, commission time, and some money. I also notice in 7
the audience is – Mr. Weidanz from the Chamber of Commerce is here, and he's quite 8
knowledgeable on this topic as well. 9
10
But secondly, I wanted to bring up, as I do every 11 years apparently, that there is a property, a 11
very large property in town – 456 University Avenue – that in its history there have been at 12
least 2 initiatives for suggesting that leadership could work proactively with the landlord and 13
think about turning that into a cultural asset for public benefit. And the precedent of this is, for 14
example, in Menlo Park, The Guild Theatre was turned into a entertainment venue featuring 15
live music as compared to its previous permit use as a movie theater. In that case, it's a bit of a 16
red herring, but they raised – a nonprofit raised $35M to turn the movie theater into a 17
performance space. I'm not saying that's perfect precedent for trying to work with the landlord 18
and raising $35M for the Varsity Theatre, but I think it is – opens your mind to something like 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that. And also, Berkeley had a program at the University Theatre that became a nonprofit 1
performing art space, so that's 3 ideas. Seasonality of the street fair, continue – pushing on… 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you. That concludes your time. 4
5
Mark Weiss: …and to work with the well-known landlord, and you could do some kind of a 6
trade out where you let him develop something bigger somewhere else in exchange for him 7
giving the people a favorable deal towards working with some type of cultural program. Thank 8
you. 9
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Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Weiss. 11
12
Samuel Tavera: And through the Chair, I have no other comment cards for general public 13
comment and no raised hands on Zoom. 14
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City Official Reports 16
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1. Director's Report, Meeting Schedule, and Assignments 18
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Chair Akin: Thank you. AD Armer, do we have an official city report? 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: We do. Thank you. Good evening. Jennifer Armer, Assistant Director for 1
Planning, and we will go through just a couple of notes on upcoming meetings and recent 2
occurrences at Council. So for – next slide. 3
4
What would have been the regularly scheduled second meeting in December has been 5
cancelled as previously mentioned. We have 2 items tentatively scheduled for the first meeting 6
in January. Be bringing you the South Palo Alto Bike/Ped Connectivity item and then a Planned 7
Home Zone, PHZ, project at 808 San Antonio Road. There's a third item that is potentially as 8
well, but we will publish that information once we have it available. The – next slide. 9
10
Couple of updates just that on Monday this week, we brought the Dark Sky or Lighting 11
Ordinance to update to Council, and it was approved with modifications at about 11:30 p.m. on 12
Monday, so really excited to have brought that to a conclusion. There is now some 13
implementation to make sure that we're getting the word out and everybody's understanding 14
those new regulations. With that, it concludes my presentation, but we also do have 15
information from Transportation this evening. 16
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Chair Akin: Mr. Arce, take it away. 18
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Senior Transportation Planner Ozzy Arce: Thank you, Chair, members of PTC, and I think there's 1
a slide deck that's coming up, but I'll go ahead and get started. My name's Ozzy Arce, Senior 2
Transportation Planner. I appreciate everyone's patience with our new setup today too. I, 3
myself, am trying to get used to it, but here we go. So Senior Transportation Planner with the 4
Office of Transportation providing these updates for PTC for December 10. Next slide. 5
6
Just to quick – close the loop here because I know that this was something that you all 7
discussed at November 12 and expressed your enthusiastic and unanimous support for the 8
draft plan. We presented a draft plan and the near-term project list to the City Council at a 9
study session on December 1, and overall, Council spoke positively about the effort. It's 10
collaborative process in the draft plan. Specifically just wanted to call out that they wanted us 11
to reconsider revisiting certain comp plan policies that limit some of the street improvements 12
that the Office of Transportation can move forward with and also asked us to revisit and 13
reconsider bike facilities on portions of Middlefield rather than in the entire corridor. There are 14
current key areas that we could focus on, so I just wanted to close the loop there. Staff is now 15
preparing the final plan for presentation and adoption by the City Council in early 2026. Next 16
slide, please. 17
18
Speed surveys. Speed surveys are how the City captures the real-world facts about driver 19
behavior. They're required legally for the – as a foundation for enforcing speed limits using 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
radar. They tell the City the actual operating speed of traffic on the street, and then this data is 1
essential for setting these defensible speed limits. So Palo Alto conducted speed surveys 2
starting in 2023 through the spring of 2025 at various locations as illustrated on this map, and 3
most recently, at the December 1 City Council meeting, they approved the second reading of 4
the speed surveys, which means that now OOT can collaborate with the police department to 5
encourage the enforcement of speed on key arterials with the use of radar. This includes 6
Embarcadero Road, Middlefield, Alma, and University Avenue. Next slide, please. 7
8
Quiet zone quad gates. Council reviewed the recommendation on the Monday, November 10, 9
meeting to install 4 quad gate systems at Churchill, Meadow, and Charleston in order to make 10
the rail crossings eligible for a quiet zone designation. There's an illustration of what those quad 11
gates look like on this slide deck. Next slide, please. 12
13
Traffic garden at Ventura Community Center. We recently opened this traffic garden at this 14
community center. It's the first traffic garden in the Bay Area. It's also known as the Palo Alto 15
Bike Safety Park, a brainchild of a Gunn High School Student. And with the support of the City, 16
and the school just – we identified a site and raised the necessary funds to make it happen, so 17
we invite the community to check it out at the Ventura Community Center. And one defining 18
feature here that you'll note is the – what's called turning of the stop signs, which is known for 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
our bike boulevards here in educating students on some of the street elements that they'll find 1
locally. Next slide, please. 2
3
And I know it was mentioned that you're going to see this in January, so just as a tee-up to that, 4
the South Palo Alto Bike/Ped Connectivity Project, that's looking at identifying locations for up 5
to 2 locations for bike-ped crossings in the south part of the city. The City Council, also at their 6
December 1 meeting, reviewed the 8 alternatives and narrowed the options from 8 to 1 7
location, which is Alternative A in the vicinity of El Dorado Avenue. Now, they did direct staff to 8
advance 2 variants of Alternative A, and we'll learn a bit more of this next month. But there's 9
A1, which is a signalized crossing of Alma and El Dorado, and then A2, which is a tunnel under 10
Alma and the Caltrain Tracks. So there's a difference between there, and there was a slight 11
preference for Alternative A2, which is the full grade separation. 12
13
Next slide and last slide here, which is happening in the room next door at Council Chambers. 14
There's a big discussion around the Rail Grade Separation Project and looking at the 15
alternatives, looking at the 15 percent design as part of the preliminary environmental and 16
engineering phase. So if folks are interested in that, that meeting is happening at Council 17
Chambers right now. That concludes my updates for December 10 and also this year, so we will 18
connect with you all in the new year. Thank you. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Arce. Commissioners, any questions for Ms. Armer or Mr. Arce? 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 3
4
Chair Akin: Commissioner Templeton. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: I just wanted to say thank you for bringing up the traffic garden, the 7
Bike Garden Project. Just want you to know, Nara Cammack is the young woman's name, and 8
you should mention it when you mention this project because it was brilliant, and it was her 9
project. She came here to us, to this body first, and it was part of her Gold Award for Girl 10
Scouts, and I really love that she was able to give back to the community. So I wanted to call her 11
name out and ask you to do so as well. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Any other questions/comments? Perfect. We'll have to 14
do a hand raise tonight, so – yes. I was worried about the implications for the sound system, of 15
having a bunch of mics on at the same time. Commissioner Ji? 16
17
Commissioner Ji: I just want to say thank you, Mr. Arce, for a very thorough report again. Thank 18
you. 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: And Mr. Arce, I had a question for you. Could you elaborate on what's going on with 1
the Middlefield bike lanes and the BPTP, because I think I missed some of the implications 2
there. 3
4
Ozzy Arce: Yes. So just really quick recap. In the summer, we had initially recommended a full 5
corridor-wide improvement on Middlefield, different sections at a time, but it would be a full 6
corridor-wide improvement. Based on feedback that we received from the community, there 7
was not an interest to move forward with an entire corridor improvement along Middlefield; 8
however, based on feedback that we received from the community as well as Council, they 9
want us to consider bike improvements along certain areas of Middlefield, 2 that I just want to 10
call out. One that is already on the near-term list, which is the section of Middlefield in 11
Downtown, what we're proposing from Channing to the Menlo Park City Limit line to facilitate 12
activity in a more dense urban area around Downtown and to facilitate folks getting to Menlo 13
Park. There is Bryant adjacent; however, we do believe that a redundancy in the bike network 14
in a more dense urban area is appropriate. Separate from that, also looking at the area of 15
Middlefield between Greene Middle School and Matadero Creek and crossing Oregon 16
Expressway and as a response to the student activity that goes on in the commercial areas after 17
school as well as the commercial midtown shopping center that's there. So Council saw that 18
there is a benefit in focusing on Middlefield, especially key sections, and so we're going to move 19
forward with those recommendations. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Okay. Thank you. I will pass along that I've had some public feedback critical of the 2
segment between Channing and the Creek so find a way to address that to everyone's 3
satisfaction I hope. Any other questions, commissioners? All right then. Thank you very much. 4
5
Action Items 6
Public Comment is permitted. Five (5) minutes per speaker. 7
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2. PUBLIC HEARING / QUASI-JUDICIAL. 2100-2400 Geng Road [24PLN-00356]: 9
Recommendation on Site and Design, Conditional Use Permit, and Vesting Tentative 10
Map Applications to Demolish Four Existing Commercial Buildings and Construct 65 11
Three-Story Buildings Containing 145 For Sale Townhome Units. Thirteen Percent 12
(19) of the Units Would Be Deed Restricted to Low Income Households. The Vesting 13
Tentative Map Would Merge Two Parcels and Re-Subdivide For Condominium 14
Purposes. The Project is Proposed in Accordance with Builder’s Remedy (California 15
Government Code Section 65589.5(d)(5)). A Senate Bill 330 Pre-Application was 16
Filed on July 8, 2024. CEQA Status: Exempt from CEQA in Accordance with CEQA 17
Guidelines Section 15183 (Comprehensive Plan Consistency). Zoning District: ROLM 18
(E)(D)(AD) -Research, Office and Limited Manufacturing (Embarcadero) with Site and 19
Design and Automobile Dealership Combining Districts. 20
21
Chair Akin: We are now ready to begin our action items. This, on the agenda, is Item Number 2, 22
quasi-judicial hearing for a recommendation on site and design, the conditional use permit, and 23
a vesting tentative map for a project at 2100 Geng Road. For those of you who are following on 24
the packet, this begins on Packet Page 9. We'll begin with disclosures. Commissioners, do you 25
have any disclosures for this item? 26
27
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
I see no others, but I do. I spoke to the applicant briefly a couple of days before our packet 1
came out, so while there was material in that presentation that was new to me, it was all 2
included in the packet, so there is nothing that I can report that is not already in the public 3
record. Anyone else? All right then, Mr. Switzer, I guess we're ready for the staff presentation. 4
5
Senior Planner Steven Switzer: All right. Well, good evening. Let's take a trip to 2100 Geng 6
Road. All right. To orient ourselves here, the project's location, we are in the Research and 7
Office and Limited Manufacturing (Embarcadero) Zoning District with the Site and Design and 8
Automobile Dealership Combining District applied to this site. Some adjacent land uses are the 9
Baylands Park to the north as well as a post office and some offices surrounding the project 10
site. 11
12
So how did we get here today at the December 10 meeting? If we go back in time to July 8, the 13
applicant filed a Senate Bill SB-330 pre-application to lock in some development rights, and 14
following that, they filed a formal application on December 18 in 2024 that has been under 15
review with City staff. It went to an early Architectural Review Board meeting on October 16 16
where some feedback was received as well as incorporated in the Project Plan seen before the 17
PTC today at the December 10 meeting. And we are scheduled – or tentatively scheduled 18
should I say – for the January 15 meeting at the Architectural Review Board and a March 19
meeting at City Council, so moving the project forward. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
As for a overview, this is a conditional use permit, and that is for a portion of the project site 2
that has the – should I say not identified in the housing element, so that would be exclusive 3
residential uses and not ROLM District, and that requires a conditional use permit. This is also a 4
Site and Design permit, and that is for development in that same zoning district as well as a 5
vesting tentative map for the condominium component of the project. And for discussing a 6
little bit about kind of what's going on or what would go on on the site, that would be to 7
demolish the 4 existing office buildings, construction of potentially 65 buildings that would be 8
approximately 150 – 145, excuse me, townhomes. Three stories in height at 42 feet tall, 4 9
bedrooms, would be 75 units. Three bedrooms would be approximately 70 units. Then we have 10
our 19 below-market rate units, which meets the state-mandated 13 percent for the 11
affordability at 50 to 80 percent of the area meeting income. 12
13
And a little bit about some parking. It's 332 parking spaces provided, and we have 290 in the 14
garages, 70 of which would be tandem, so one in front of the other, and we have 43 on the 15
street. And there is substantial tree removals on the site due to the raising of the site to move it 16
out of the flood zone, and I'll get – touch on that a little bit further in the presentation. 17
18
To kind of frame the discussion this evening, I wanted to briefly go over some of the state laws 19
and some of the constraints that we have in reviewing the project. So this is a builder's remedy 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
application, and that's defined in that Assembly Bill or AB 1893, so I think colloquially it's 1
defined as Builder's Remedy 2.0, so that's the reduced affordability limits down to that 13 2
percent that was noted in the previous slide. And with it being a builder's remedy, the project 3
may not be denied based on an inconsistency with either the zoning ordinance or the 4
comprehensive planned land use for the site, and the City may only require compliance with, 5
say, objective standards that would apply to the project if it was proposed on a site that allows 6
the density that's requested. And in this case, that is the governing zoning district for the site, 7
so – and on that note, the project is proposed with a .97:1 floor area ratio, and it would be a 8
density of 13.2 dwelling units per acre. And that is permitted within the RM-20 zoning district, 9
which – that's garnered from the residential uses that are applied in the ROLM district, so the 10
standards are borrowed from the RM-20 district. As noted, meets the minimum density, which 11
is the 11 units, so we're coming in a little bit above that. And again, under State Density Bonus 12
Law, the applicant is afforded some further protections, if you will, of waivers or from – or 13
concessions from appliable standards that may physically prevent the project from being built 14
at the requested density. 15
16
So on to the actual project. Here's the site plan here. Noted on the screen is the distribution of 17
different housing types on the projects. We have some detached units. We have some 18
duplexes. We have some row townhomes of multiple townhomes within one building with a 19
common open space. And the rendering of the project, to give a little bit more visual interest 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
here, and just briefly going over some of the elevations here. I believe the applicant has a 1
presentation that goes a little bit more into some of the design choices. So these are for the 2
alley loaded detached homes that are highlighted in red on the screen with some muted colors 3
that were changed from the initial application. That was one of the feedback from the 4
Architectural Review Board to better align with some of the Baylands design guidelines. 5
6
Moving on to the duplexes, which are centered around that common space, again with those 7
muted colors and material scheme. Moving on to some of these townhouse buildings, the 501 8
Block as noted in the plan set and detailed on the screen. And what's called out as Townhouse 9
Building 601, centered along Geng Road as well as on the southern portion of the site. And the 10
last remaining or one of – second to the last should I say, the Townhouse Building 801. And now 11
the last, which is the front loaded detached townhomes on the rear property lines shared 12
between the Baylands Athletic Center. 13
14
So some key considerations. As noted, this is a builder's remedy project. The project may not be 15
denied on the basis of an inconsistency with the zoning ordinance or the Comprehensive Plan. 16
The project applicant is afforded waivers and concessions from applicable standards should 17
those be identified. There is a distinction between a waiver versus a concession. There's limited 18
concessions versus, perhaps, the unlimited waivers that could be afforded to the applicant. 19
Concessions generally center around, say, financial feasibility of the project as well as the 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
waivers would be something that would physically prevent the project from being built, 1
perhaps like a daylight plane encroachment or something that would reduce the number of 2
units on the project site. And as detailed on the staff report, it was for informational purposes 3
only, but it was conformance with the applicable standards that any other project would be 4
required to comply with, and those are detailed on the screen here. And that's the RM-20 5
development standards for the zoning district as well as objective design standards. You have 6
the Baylands Master Plan as well as the Baylands Design Guidelines and the Site Assessment 7
and Design Guidelines as well. 8
9
So a little bit about the feedback from that October 16 Architectural Review Board meeting. It 10
was identified that the project, as previously proposed, should kind of incorporate more 11
housing typologies. The zoning code is, for the lack of words, a little silent on defining what a 12
housing typology is. One of the suggestions by the Architectural Review Board was to 13
incorporate a duplex, which the applicant has agreed to do and is detailed in the plans. 14
15
Lighting considerations. Those are – this is approximated to the Baylands concern, so having 16
that as a condition of approval, that is detailed in the Record of Land Use Action. Materials and 17
colors. The applicant has agreed to revise their initial proposal to have more muted colors and 18
materials that would be a little bit more sympathetic to the Baylands and not have a stark 19
contrast. I believe the earlier designs were more or less kind of a black and white, almost piano 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
key kind of contrast, which was a nice design, but I think perhaps in the Baylands it was not 1
meeting quite the standard, so I – definitely reducing that contrast level of the colors has been 2
incorporated in the design. 3
4
Some more information on the grade changes and the retaining walls was requested, and that 5
has been included in the architectural plans just because of the sensitivity of the site and the 6
raising of it in order to move out of the flood plain, better understanding what retaining wall 7
would look like and kind of those areas where the fill would be increased to a higher level as 8
well as some considerations for the rooftop decks. There is a common open space provided for 9
the project as well as one towards the northern – northwestern corner of the site but majority 10
of all of the units do have a private rooftop deck, and that is deviating, if you will, from one of 11
our standards, our general provisions of having a rooftop deck and any features of that being 12
within 45 degrees of the actual plate. So the railing is, of course, at the edge of the building, so 13
just a consideration if there could be another design for that as well as the flood zone. 14
15
So speaking a little bit towards about the financial feasibility of the project in order to develop 16
144 – 145 townhomes in a flood zone, raising that out of the flood plain would be necessary for 17
getting flood insurance, so the applicant has been working with the City and Public Works to 18
develop a CLOMAR, so that is a Conditional Letter of Map Revision, with FEMA. And following 19
securing that, it would be a letter, a LOMAR, a Letter of Map Revision, which is the official sign-20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
off from FEMA that the project site has moved out of the flood zone. So that's running in 1
tandem, kind of in the background if you will. 2
3
And tree removals. So since the site is being raised upwards of anywhere from, say, 2 feet in 4
some areas to 6 feet – I believe that some of the other portions of the site may have a little bit 5
higher grade differential, but along that kind of shared property line, that's the numbers. But in 6
doing so, the trees on the site would be removed, and there would be a retaining wall for that 7
shared property line between the Baylands Athletic Center. And there's approximately 50-some 8
trees that would be on city property that would be impacted. The arborist report does detail 9
about the sustained impacts. Those are blue gums or eucalyptus trees. Those are not entirely 10
the best species to deal with. Any impacts to the root systems or adding potentially 2 feet to 6 11
feet of soil on a root, so they would sustain impacts from the construction-related activities, 12
and those were recommended by the arborist to be removed. So that is scheduled for the Parks 13
and Rec Commission on December 16, and it will be weighed in there for any developments on 14
city parkland. It's a Parkland Improvement Ordinance, so that has been drafted and is available 15
and circulating for the public to comment on. 16
17
As for the environmental analysis, we had a Section 15183 with the CEQA Guidelines, so that's 18
essentially an initial study checklist to make sure that the project is consistent with the 19
Comprehensive Plan, and it was determined that the project would not have any adverse 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
impacts, and it was consistent with the Comprehensive Plan with standard conditions applied. 1
And those are detailed in that record of land use action. 2
3
So onto the – probably the item of discussion here, the recommendation we have before the 4
Planning and Transportation Commission. Staff is recommending that – consider the project 5
exempt from CEQA in accordance with that CEQA Guidelines Section 15183, consistency with 6
the Comprehensive Plan as well as recommend approval of the Site and Design, Conditional Use 7
Permit, and Vesting Tentative Map to City Council based on those findings and subject to the 8
conditions of approval found in that Draft Record of Land Use Action in Attachment B. And with 9
that, I can entertain any questions, and the applicant does have a presentation. 10
11
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Switzer. I'd like to ask the commissioners if we have any clarifying 12
questions for Mr. Switzer, and then we will have comment from the applicant and public 13
comment thereafter. And if I could ask the applicant when the time comes to use this space 14
here and to remain there because I'm sure there will be questions for you after the public 15
comment. So commissioners, any questions for Mr. Switzer? Commissioner Templeton. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Hi. Yes. I apologize if I missed this. I know it's a lot of information 18
here, so my brain is trying to remember it all. But is there any history at all, since we're not 19
going to do the CEQA stuff – any history of disturbance to that soil? Like we have a plume here 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
in Palo Alto and other areas. Is there any concern at all with that amount of disturbance of the 1
soil? 2
3
Steven Switzer: So that was identified or evaluated should I say in that initial study checklist. 4
We do have the environmental consultant online for any specific items, but to address your 5
question, no in short. So… 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: That's… 8
9
Steven Switzer: …and I can [inaudible 33:48]… 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: …what I thought. 12
13
Steven Switzer: …on that. Yes. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: I just wanted to double check because that could affect a line of 16
questions, so I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. Okay. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Akin: Commissioner Hechtman. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. A couple of quick questions about the trees. So the city 1
trees that are being removed – are those just the row of trees as you describe them that are at 2
the boundary line between the ball field and the subject site? 3
4
Steven Switzer: Correct. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. And of the 648 new trees being planted to replace all the trees 7
that are being removed, are some portion of those going to be planted on the city property, I 8
guess on the other side of the retaining wall? 9
10
Steven Switzer: So those 648 would be located on the project site itself since work on city 11
property, or city parkland should I say, requires a Parkland Improvement Ordinance. That would 12
be captured at that December 16 meeting, and that isn't detailed in the packet here just 13
because of that work on city property would be separate from the project site. But the 648 new 14
trees would be on the project site itself. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. I'm almost there. I got… 17
18
Steven Switzer: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: …where the 648 will be. Is there something that's going to happen at 1
the meeting on the 16th that will potentially result in new trees on the city property? 2
3
Steven Switzer: So I can't speak for the Parks and Rec Commission for what their decision would 4
be, but based on our Tree Preservation Manual with the city and what's proposed in the 5
ordinance, it does allow some flexibility as to either have a planting or either an in-lieu fee paid 6
for those trees. So we have a ratio set of if one tree is equal to however many – the diameter 7
width of it [inaudible 35:47] replacement value. So whatever is decided by the Parks and Rec 8
Commission would move forward with that Parkland Improvement Ordinance. So it could be a 9
fee or new planting of trees. So that would be the options. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. And if it were the pleasure of the Parks Commission to have a 12
new planting of trees, will that affect the 648 number on the site? May some of those slide 13
over, or those would be in addition to the 648? 14
15
Steven Switzer: It would be an addition to that. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Thank you. 18
19
Chair Akin: Okay. I have Vice Chair Chang and then Commissioner… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Just to… 2
3
Chair Akin: …Templeton. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: …make it crystal clear – So the 648 is to deal with the loss of – the 648 6
replacement on site is to address the loss of trees on site, and then the rest of it is what Parks 7
will be looking at. 8
9
Steven Switzer: Correct. 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: Is that correct? Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: Commissioner Templeton. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: Gosh. We love our trees. You knew you'd be spending time on this 16
one, didn't you? I am going to ask it as a question, but it's really a hope and a dream. Whatever 17
replacement trees that you are going to propose to the Parks and Rec Commission will not be 18
wildfire hazards, will they? Because the Eucalyptus doesn't need to be replaced because it's a 19
dangerous tree. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Steven Switzer: I think the applicant has, at least for the project site, indicated that a majority – 2
more than half would be native species. So if we – yes. So not eucalyptus. So… 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. That seems like an improvement, but I'll save my 5
opinions for the next section. Thanks. 6
7
Chair Akin: Commissioner Ji. 8
9
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. This is kind of more of just a general question. I'm pretty 10
new to the Commission, and so I was looking at your slide deck, and you said that we cannot – 11
so on Packet Page 21, the options are to recommend approval of the project with modifications 12
or to recommend denial based on revised findings, but you said in the presentation that you 13
cannot recommend denial based on the Comprehensive Plan. So I was just wondering if you 14
could provide some examples of what denial actually means in this case, or what that could 15
look like. 16
17
Steven Switzer: Yes. So I can start that, and then I believe that we have some other folks that 18
might want to chime in. But when we're dealing with these Builder Remedy projects, that 19
would be reserved to either a public safety or health kind of issue that the project would 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
impose rather than, say, an inconsistency with a zoning standard, its exceeding the height limit 1
or its exceeding the floor area ratio. Those wouldn't be reasons for a denial of a project, but… 2
3
Albert Yang: Yes. I can chime in. Steven's absolutely correct. The grounds for denial on this 4
project are very, very narrow, and those are difficult findings to make. So if you believe – if the 5
Commission believed that there were specific adverse impacts on public health and safety 6
based on objective standards, we could look into that further, but it's not something that staff 7
is anticipating at this time. 8
9
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. 10
11
Chair Akin: Commissioner James? 12
13
Commissioner James: Just have a couple of questions. I was very interested in the flooding 14
remediation, but I think you covered that. And then presumably, that's sort of to allow, as you 15
said, the map to change so that homeowners can get FEMA insurance – flood insurance. Is that 16
basically – is that the basic understanding there? Is there anything you'd like to kind of add to 17
summarize that? 18
19
Steven Switzer: I think that's probably it in a nutshell, so. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner James: And is there a strong sense – how do you determine – let me ask it this 2
way. How do you determine how high that should be given global warming and Bayland 3
flooding and – it floods on the other side of the highway. That's a pretty – so I'm just curious. 4
That seems like a pretty flood-sensitive area. 5
6
Steven Switzer: Sure. So I'm definitely not an engineer or civil engineer for that matter, but my 7
understanding would be it's above the base – the BFE, the Base Flood Elevation… 8
9
Commissioner James: Yes. 10
11
Steven Switzer: …and it's a certain number of feet that would be above that in order to remove 12
it out of that flood zone, or the hazard area, if you will, from FEMA. So it can range in the 13
number of feet, whether it's one foot above or perhaps 3 feet. So. 14
15
Commissioner James: Yes. I also wondered if the plan – and I may have missed this, but does 16
the plan – since these are 3 and 4-bedroom, presumably family dwellings, does the plan include 17
any – does it contemplate a safe route to school for bicyclers? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Steven Switzer: So there is, in the multimodal component of the staff report – I mean there's a 1
mention of kind of the transportation that's afforded to the project site and kind of the access 2
points if you will. Bus lines – the applicant may provide a little bit more details, but there are 3
bike lanes and of course the trail network. Obviously, you wouldn't be necessarily taking the 4
Baylands Trail to school, but that is available for that, so. 5
6
Commissioner James: Actually, I think I do remember reading there was a description of what 7
the bike path potentially would be to Caltrans, or Caltrain. 8
9
Steven Switzer: So… 10
11
Commissioner James: [Inaudible 41:20]. 12
13
Steven Switzer:…yes. The staff report does note the distance, yes, from the project site to the 14
station, so. 15
16
Commissioner James: But does it – so that must assume a path, if you're calculating a distance. 17
So what would be the – appear to be the safest path for the students – presumably students in 18
those families getting to public schools? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Steven Switzer: Well, I think that there's definitely options, right, for say a perspective buyer of 1
one of these townhomes to get to school, but there is the Palo Alto Pedestrian and Bike Bridge 2
a little bit further south of the project site. I think that probably would be an ideal opportunity 3
for those residents to use that to cross over, but there's, of course, the other roads that lead to 4
the project site, so. 5
6
Jennifer Armer: And I would add that, while we always encourage applicants to be thinking 7
about how they're development's going to fit into the existing fabric, and our transportation 8
team is always looking to where additional facilities are needed, something that could extend 9
to a full safe route to school is often beyond what we could require in terms of improvements 10
for a development. 11
12
Commissioner James: Yes. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: So we do try to identify those kinds of immediate connections that we could… 15
16
Commissioner James: Yes. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: …require as part of a development project, but there are often limitations as to 19
how far afield that could go. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner James: Right. Lastly, I just wanted to – I kind of wanted to better understand and 2
wonder if you could summarize for me the income qualification process and whether or not it – 3
I'd just like to know – understand better how that works and whether it favors certain jobs that 4
we tend to want to have those folks locate here, like teachers and public service workers. Do 5
they have any advantage in the selection process? And I think it's funny because I've had a lot 6
of people ask me, like – in an income-qualified purchase, is there any mechanism if the owner – 7
is there any deed restriction or something? If the owner then sort of – their income raises 8
above that category, is there any remedy there? Or it's just – they just were lucky and they 9
managed to get in when they were at a certain income level and did well. 10
11
Steven Switzer: All right. Well, I think the governing document that you – would have all the 12
answers to your questions would be the BMR agreement – that Below Market Rate agreement, 13
and that does specify timelines for, say, the longevity of a BMR unit. This is a for-sale model, so 14
that is a little bit different than, say, some of these rental properties that we've seen in more 15
recent development proposals. So capturing that BMR unit would be that medium – that 50 to 16
80 percent AMI at time of purchase. The City does utilize Alta Housing to have, say, like the 17
selection of a BMR unit. So as for the specifics of whether it favors either a teacher or maybe 18
some other industries that might be in the area, I'm not privy to exactly that selection process, 19
but that would be through Alta Housing. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: And I'll add to that there is some preference given to those who live and work 2
in Palo Alto, though not usually type of employment. And so it has to do with a variety of things, 3
depending on the unit size and therefore family size, income – we have a wait list for those who 4
are available to participate in applying for one of our BMR units. And as mentioned, Alta 5
Housing does provide services to the City to review those applications and consider potential 6
future owners to ensure that they do qualify with our criteria. They are… 7
8
Chair Akin: Could you use your mic for that? 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: Are those criteria the same across the city, or is it specific to this 11
project? I'm trying to determine if this conversation is relevant to the approval. Thank you. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: The criteria are the same across the city. There may be some projects that 14
choose to have additional criteria. I know we've talked about one recently where… 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Right. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: …it was employees… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: But is this one… 1
2
Jennifer Armer: …at the schools. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: …but is this one… 5
6
Jennifer Armer: But this one does not have any further [inaudible 46:19]. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: …thank you for clarifying. 9
10
Commissioner James: Thanks for your answers. Very helpful. 11
12
Chair Akin: Commissioner Hechtman? 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: Just to follow up on the bikes because – in case that safe routes to 15
school is of concern to any of our speakers – today, there are bike lanes on both sides of Geng 16
Road, which I would call it the back side of the project, if you will, away from 101. 17
18
Commissioner James: Yes. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: And so a child would be advised to come out that way… 1
2
Commissioner James: Yes. 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: …take the bike lane to Embarcadero Road, where there's a signal and 5
a crosswalk, and once you cross that, you're on the Mercedes Benz property, which a couple 6
years ago we required them to do a 10-foot… 7
8
Commissioner James: Oh yes. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: …bike path wrapping off street, around the corner, which heads you 11
down East Bayshore until it meets the bike lanes… 12
13
Commissioner James: Yes. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: …which take you to the bike bridge that takes you over into sort of 16
behind the Oregon Expressway side road. 17
18
Commissioner James: Thank you. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Commissioner Hechtman, is that it? 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: No. That's it. Thanks. 3
4
Chair Akin: Commissioner Templeton. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: I know we're asking clarifying questions. I'm trying to figure out how 7
to phrase this as a clarifying question, Chair. 8
9
Chair Akin: I think we can be flexible. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: But nothing that the Commissioner just described would get you to 12
Duveneck or Walter-Hays. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. 15
16
Samuel Tavera: And to the Chair, I did want to note that Commissioner Peterson has his hand 17
raised on Zoom. 18
19
Chair Akin: Thank you very much, Mr. Tavera. Commissioner Peterson. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. Quick question. Refresh my memory. What is the distance 2
from – is it a Caltrain station or a public transit? Give me the rule real quick – clarification for a 3
Builder's Remedy project. 4
5
Steven Switzer: Well, there isn't a distance requirement for a Builder's Remedy project. I mean, 6
there's AB 2097, which affords a project reduced parking requirements, but aside for the 7
Builder's Remedy project being a certain distance from a quality transit stop, there isn't a 8
requirement. But for the sake of conversation, it is 2.2 miles from the nearest Caltrain station… 9
10
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. 11
12
Steven Switzer: …which would be the University. 13
14
Commissioner Peterson: That was the clarification I needed. So this one is not dependent on 15
distance. There's another – not a Builder's Remedy but another waiver that is based on distance 16
to public transit, but this one does not apply to that. Correct? 17
18
Jennifer Armer: Correct. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. 1
2
Chair Akin: Anything else, Commissioners? If not, I believe we're ready for the applicant's 3
presentation. Mr. Cohen? And I believe we have 15 minutes allotted. 4
5
Female: Red light. There you go. 6
7
Strada Investment Group Founding Partner Michael Cohen: Oh. Red is good in this case. Okay. 8
Thank you. My name is Michael Cohen. I'm a founding partner of Strada Investment Group. We 9
are the developer of this property. And if you could move up one slide, that would be great. 10
11
As you heard from staff, this site was previously developed as a 4-building, kind of suburban 12
office park. It's an 11-acre site. They're pretty low-density office buildings surrounded by a sea 13
of parking. Notwithstanding the fact that technically this a Builder's Remedy project because 14
our applications went in before the Housing Element was adopted, the property zoning 15
currently permits residential uses at the densities we're proposing. And I think at least half the 16
site was included in the City's Housing Element. Under state law, we could've developed a much 17
taller, more dense multifamily project here, but we elected to develop 145 single-family small-18
lot and townhomes, for 2 reasons. Part of it was sensitivity to the adjacency to the Baylands, 19
but really the biggest driver is there is a massive undersupply in this area for first-time home-20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
buying opportunities, especially for families. And as you'll see, we've designed this project with 1
that goal very much in mind. If we go one forward. 2
3
As you heard, the homes are all 3 or 4 bedrooms, and they're at a really wide variety of sizes 4
and price points. They range from 1600 square feet to 3000 square feet across 4 different 5
building types. The homes all have 2-car garages and roof decks, and many have side or rear 6
yards. And approximately – these guys will correct me – 50 percent of the homes have ground-7
floor bedrooms with baths that support multigenerational families and aging in place. Similarly, 8
the layout and landscape plans are very focused on community building. We have a mix of 9
central gathering spaces, pocket parks, community gardens, family play area, all linked by a 10
network of pedestrian pathways, and all of this is wrapped in a very robust planting program. 11
As you heard, we're going to triple the number of trees on the site from what currently exists. 12
There's currently 18 percent native species. We're going to be doing more than 50 percent, and 13
I promise you we will not plant a single eucalyptus on the site. 14
15
We have – it was interesting when I saw the calendar pop up because I had a year in my head, 16
but I guess it's been a year and a half we've had the pleasure of working with Planning staff. It's 17
been very constructive. As you heard last month, we had a very productive meeting, kind of a 18
study session with the ARB. We got some very concrete feedback, which is incorporated into 19
the designs that you have. We've also reached out to a number of stakeholders, including we 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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had a really positive meeting with the Palo Alto Airport Association, and we spent a lot of time 1
talking with them. I think we had the majority of their board, and we explained to them a 2
couple very important things. One, understanding that we have legal requirements, which we'll 3
be complying with – deed restrictions that provide notice to buyers very clearly that there's an 4
airport in the vicinity, something called an avigation easement, which, among other things, 5
requires homebuyers to waive nuisance claims against the airport, which is generally the 6
biggest thing that airports are concerned about. And we also talked a little bit about, from a 7
construction typology perspective, how we deal with sound attenuation. At the end of the day, 8
we told them I think being close enough to the airport could be a really wonderful amenity for 9
this project. 10
11
Finally, I did want to say this is not our first project east of the 101. We've done very similar, 12
largely townhome projects, both in Redwood City and San Mateo. And through that experience, 13
we've learned some very important things, one that you've already raised, which is a very clear 14
understanding of what we have to do to lift the site out of the floodplain. The real answer to 15
the question is FEMA sets these ground rules, our civil engineers understand what those ground 16
rules are, we build to that, and then the CLOMR process it was described is the way FEMA signs 17
off on the fact that we're adequately lifting this out of the floodplain. In part – there are local, 18
state, federal laws that we have to meet, but also so our homebuyers can get flood insurance. 19
The other thing is just on a more general matter, we've developed some experience in how to 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
design and implement this process of converting former office properties into really thriving 1
residential communities. So with that, I'm going to introduce the design team. We're going to 2
start with Darian from Dahlin Architects. 3
4
Dahlin Group Principal and Senior Architect Darian Wagner: Good evening. Darian Wagner. 5
Thank you. 6
7
Michael Cohen: Red is good. 8
9
Darian Wagner: Red is good. Darian Wagner. I'm a Principal and Senior Architect at Dahlin 10
Group Architecture and Planning, and happy to kind of walk through some of the ideas behind 11
the architecture with you. So as you all can see, we thoughtfully thought of the architecture not 12
only of the community itself that we're creating, but of its surroundings. And so the placement 13
of the homes and the typologies were very thoughtful as well as to how we were interacting 14
with the edges of our community. So as mentioned, the houses range from 1600 square feet to 15
3000 square feet, which is a pretty good range, even in a good dense community. And really, 16
that is starting to create different price points for different affordability and attainability. 17
Through each of these typologies, the attached and detached and duplexes creates 18
opportunities for different lifestyles and livability. Different home styles have more open first-19
floor plans of just bedrooms and bonus kind of living areas. So again, it has a really great diverse 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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mix for multigenerational living and aging in place as well for a lot – and families as well for this. 1
It's a really good diverse mix. So next slide. 2
3
We'll start with talking about the detached single – detached townhouses, the single-family 4
detach, thoughtfully tucked to the north part of the site. It starts to transition that density for 5
the Baylands Athletic Center there, and it really starts to create some gaps of space. So as its – 6
for its surroundings, you really start to see glimpses between those buildings for perceived 7
density. Next slide. 8
9
As you'll see, there's the front loaded and alley loaded. The architectural character, since they 10
face each other, respond to each other as well in terms of colors and materials, and really just 11
thoughtfully kind of crafted on the space to face each other for those. Again, different layouts 12
of living spaces on these first floors. Next. 13
14
This is the rendering where you'll start to see the clean-lined architecture, but you'll start to see 15
that movement and engagement that we're starting to create within these homes and on the 16
streetscape as well. So inviting in how you can start to bring those materials down to that first 17
floor as well. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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We'll go on to the duplexes. So tucked to the core center of the site, again starting to blur the 1
lines of density and really start to transition so it's not so abrupt. So you'll start to see the 2
duplexes attached here into the core of the site. This provides a different opportunity for side-3
yard living, which is just – the house engages with the site and the yard a little bit differently, so 4
different opportunities. And go ahead. 5
6
As you'll start to see on all of these, we have roof decks on all of these, so livability and the 7
healthy living as we've really started to study more of. The opportunity for open space and 8
outdoor is really important for healthy living, and so being able to provide balconies and roof 9
decks that face these open spaces like the park is really important. It's going to be, I think, really 10
an awesome amenity for these homeowners. 11
12
Moving on to the attached townhouses. Start to see it more on the fringe and those borders. 13
The – it is a modern architectural style, and it relates to the square-shouldered commercial 14
building on the adjacent parcels nearby. So really – and these have a variety of styles as well, so 15
tandem and side-by-side garages, again creating attainability and affordability for different 16
types of people living in these spaces. Inaudible. The – actually, go back one. 17
18
The other thing that we paid attention to is on some of these townhouses, paying attention not 19
only to the fronts, but some of the sides. You'll start to see some of the relief in the articulation 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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on the sides of the buildings, paying attention to what's going on within our community in the 1
streets, and the surrounding streets, and the commercial as well. So you'll start to see that it 2
starts to separate so it's not so canyon-like. And so we did try to pay attention to the sides of 3
the buildings as well, and what that feels like. Go ahead. 4
5
The colors – I'll just touch on this quickly so we can get to landscape, but the rich – really the 6
colors is a lot of the – there's a lot of rich materials and textures in these – smooth stucco, 7
metal railing. And then the – if we move on to the next slide, you'll start to see, in the duplexes 8
and then in the townhouses, the siding materials. We're using Trespa siding and cementitious 9
siding. And then you start to get introduced – the richness of the brick for the tactile and 10
texture, and that starts to come down by the entries, and so adds it – so it's impactful. Right? 11
Trying to be conscious of cost, but where does it matter? Where do the materials matter most? 12
It's where you tactfully feel them at that ground level. Go ahead. 13
14
[Inaudible 60:53]. Some of the changes based on ARB feedback. Again, the duplexes, softening 15
of the colors from an architectural perspective were the main things that we had focused on to 16
incorporate, so those are the changes that you saw today. And then a tiered retaining wall, 17
which [inaudible 61:10]. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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Principal at The Guzzardo Partnership, Inc., Morgan Burke: That's a good segue for me. My 1
name is Morgan Burke. I'm one of the principals at The Guzzardo Partnership. We're the 2
landscape architect actually at another – might've been one [inaudible 61:21]… 3
4
Michael Cohen: [Inaudible 61:21]. 5
6
Morgan Burke: …[inaudible 61:22]. Keep going. Yes. 7
8
Michael Cohen: Yes. 9
10
Darian Wagner: Yes. 11
12
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 61:24]. 13
14
Darian Wagner: [Inaudible 61:25]. Yes. 15
16
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 61:26]. 17
18
Female: [Inaudible 61:27]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Morgan Burke: Okay. We'll run through this quickly. The goal of the landscape design was to 1
create a comfortable, lush, garden-style community with ample opportunities for the residents 2
to gather outside and engage with nature. Next slide, please. 3
4
So we worked with the design team to carve out open space throughout the site. So we have 5
one larger central green open space flanked by 2 pocket parks, and then those open spaces 6
would be connected via a robust pedestrian network of sidewalks throughout the site, 7
connecting all these pieces together. All told, these 3 parts of the project total in just under an 8
acre of open space. And I do want to touch on that the single-family homes and the duplexes 9
would have their own fenced, private yards in addition to these community spaces. 10
11
The slide before you here is the central green. This is really the star of the show here. This is 12
where we're hoping to build the community that Michael's talking about with the residents 13
coming together into this space. Has a variety of program elements – open lawn area, 2 fenced 14
tot lots for a variety of age groups, community garden. There's a stage with – not an 15
amphitheater, but there's a stage with a trellis overhead. There's barbecues, cooking areas for 16
large gathering, and then benches throughout here for more intimate seating. There's also – 17
through the network of sidewalks here, there's also some slimmer decomposed-granite paths 18
that cut through the planting, so we're hoping that the residents can actually engage deeper 19
with the plant material on site. Next slide, please. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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1
So this is just a shot of the central green. You can see the character of the planting. Next slide. 2
You've seen these before. So this is the open lawn space. Next slide, please. And then again, 3
another view of that central – but yes. You see the variety of seating elements there. Next slide. 4
5
So this is the pocket parks. They'll have the same character as the central green but just slightly 6
less in terms of programming. They'll have areas for large gathering and then more intimate 7
seating elements throughout. Next slide, please. 8
9
Landscape amenities will be made up of a rich material palette that will complement the 10
architecture, both color and style. And you can see here some precedent imageries of the 11
community garden and the tot lots and then a variety of seating options and paving options. 12
Next slide, please. 13
14
So last but not least, as Michael touched on, the real star of the show here, the California native 15
planting palette that will stitch the site together. And we've selected plants that come in a 16
variety of shapes, sizes, textures, and colors. We worked with an environmental design firm to 17
create a palette that's both drought tolerant as well as hopefully will create habitat for small 18
animals, pollinators, and birds. Just to give you some quick numbers, 85 percent of the shrub 19
types are California native with 62 percent of those as habitat defining; 50.5 percent of the tree 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
types are California native with 55.6 percent habitat defining. We're also proposing, as Michael 1
said, to mitigate the removed tree planting at a 3:1 ratio. I did want to touch on something real 2
quick. The 648 trees that we brought up before actually takes into consideration the eucalyptus 3
trees if they had to be removed, while we're working with the City to see what we could do on 4
the neighboring site. So we wanted to see if we could do it, and we can. So that's above and 5
beyond what we're showing to be removed at the moment right now. Next slide. 6
7
So that concludes our presentation. So we thank the commissioners for your time and your 8
consideration of the project, and we're here to answer any questions. Thank you. 9
10
Chair Akin: Thank you all. We have a slightly odd convention for how we proceed at this point. 11
We would like you to remain so that later we will be able to ask you clarifying questions in 12
response to the public comment as well as for any issues of our own. So the next step will be 13
public comment. And Mr. Burke, you may be at the public comment slot. Thank you very much. 14
Mr. Tavera, do we have any requests for public comment? 15
16
PUBLIC COMMENTS 17
18
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Through the Chair, we do have, at the moment, 5 requests to speak. I'll 19
invite our first speaker, Stephen L., to join us. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: All right. Since there are only 5, we'll stick to our 3-minute limit. 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Oh. Yes. Stephen L.? Yes. [Inaudible 66:40]. 4
5
Stephen Levy: The City, to my thinking, is finally making substantial momentum on approving 6
housing, and I thank the commissioners for their effort. For me, I look forward to supporting 7
this project when it gets to Council, and I always [inaudible 67:26] look forward to the 8
thoughtful suggestions from the ARB and the PTC. As you heard earlier, some of the ARB 9
suggestions have been taken into account, and so I'm hopeful that the commissioners will offer 10
suggestions within the Builder's Remedy constraints and the need for project feasibility. The 11
applicant really said to me the main thing. We are critically short of ownership that is remotely 12
affordable to first-time homebuyers. This project adds a substantial number of units and as a 13
bonus, adds, as you know, 19 units that under state law will be affordable to families or 14
residents earning between 50 and 80 percent. I think as most of you know, the lowering to 13 15
percent was a tradeoff to ensure that the BMR units are affordable to low-income instead of to 16
moderate-income residents. It's part of the legal training – tradeoff. Let me just mention in 17
closing one thing. It's not related totally. The Builder's Remedy projects are showing the benefit 18
of streamlining, but you will, now that I see the 800-808 San Antonio, have 4 PHC projects all 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
coming in the next year – 414 Cal Ave, Town and Country, and the one next to where I live, 332 1
Forest. 2
3
I’m hoping the Commission can work with the staff and the council to get some kind of 4
streamlined process so we don't have the 4 years that it took for 660 or the 6 years Elaine 5
Wong said last Friday for the teacher housing project. That takes incredibly critical staff time 6
away… 7
8
Samuel Tavera: Thank you. That [inaudible 70:09]. 9
10
Stephen Levy: …and will add to the cost of the project. So thank you. 11
12
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Levy. 13
14
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Herb B. Herb B., if you are here. 15
16
Chair Akin: I think I saw him leave earlier. 17
18
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Just wanted to ask one more time. Our next speaker is Winter. Winter, you 19
may now speak on Zoom. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Winter Dellenbach: Yes. I'm not pleased about this development in any way whatsoever. I 2
realize that Builder's Remedy limits our city's options in this project, but I still want to say this: 3
145 townhomes with a mere 13 percent BMR set aside, down from our normally required 20 4
percent for Builder's Remedy, is the lowest in our town's set-aside history of decades and 5
decades. A new law allows this reduction. It can even go down as far as 7 percent. It gives the 6
lie that Sacramento's priority is for more affordable housing. It is not. So there will only be 19 7
BMR units, 126 unaffordable units, and in addition – can correct me if I'm wrong – this 8
developer wants to build segregated housing with the low-income dwellings all clustered 9
together in one area. And not only clustered together, but lower-income residents would be 10
restricted to 3 bedrooms only while richer occupants can opt for either a 3 or 4-bedroom unit. 11
And this would result in larger low-income households that need 4 bedrooms unable to live in 12
this development. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. The justification by development – by the 13
developer for segregation is to save money. It's more – it's a lower cost. And that's not a 14
justification. And our City Council has pushed back on this sort of thinking before and 15
succeeded. And we shouldn't have this kind of housing in Palo Alto. Our City Council, as I said, 16
has pushed back on it. Please don't grant a concession for this. 17
18
Also, the Baylands location is bad housing for our city's sustainability and climate goals. The 19
flood zone side is susceptible to both sea level and groundwater rise. Zillions of greenhouse gas-20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
emitting trucks loaded with fill will raise this entire flood zone site by several feet, making 1
earthquake consequences more severe. More light means more stress for local wildlife and 2
migrating birds. Putting rooftop decks will exacerbate this with that lighting. The trees – not just 3
native trees but large canopy trees are needed for cooling and for carbon sequestration. We 4
need more affordable housing, but we mustn't turn a blind eye or abandon critical thinking 5
when reviewing this project. Should push back to the extent that the law allows. Thank you. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Thank you. Our next speaker is Scott O. Scott O., you may now speak. 8
9
Scott O'Neill: Hi. My name is Scott O'Neill. I'm with Palo Alto Ford, but I'm speaking for myself 10
tonight. My wife used to work at that site. She got her start in tech right out of college via a 11
startup near there, or on that site. Today, I live a little bit – we live a little bit south and across 12
the freeway in a complex that's not dissimilar from what the applicant has brought forward. All 13
of our units are a little bit on the smaller side [inaudible 74:07] than what they're offering, but 14
it's pretty similar. I think this looks like a really great project. Like my own home, the access to 15
transit is amazing, but I enjoy commuting by bike using the Bay Trail to various office complexes 16
along 101 over my career, and I expect the residents of this project will as well. 17
18
I love the community spaces. My own complex lacks one, probably because the parking 19
requirements were insane when it was being proposed. So we have one guest – no. We have I 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
think one-half of a guest space per unit, which is just nuts. Right? And so that starved all the 1
space, and we don't have any room for a green space like that. Getting that done with the 2
original project is just really amazing. I love that kids are going to be able to play in that space, 3
and without risk of balls bouncing out into streets and kids getting hit. Maybe some kids who 4
grew up in Palo Alto will be able to avail themselves of these housing opportunities and some 5
more of our adult residents of the City will be able to hug their grandchildren without buying 6
plane tickets. Too many can't. I love the diversity of the unit size, and I want to align myself with 7
everything my friend and colleague Steve said earlier about the benefits of streamlining and 8
how we need more housing. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. 9
10
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. O'Neill. And I forgot to thank Ms. Dellenbach earlier, but thank you 11
as well. Mr. Tavera, do we have any other speaker requests? 12
13
Samuel Tavera: Through the Chair, I have no other requests to speak on Zoom or public 14
comment cards. 15
16
Chair Akin: Normally, the way this works is that we'll have up to 3 minutes for a rebuttal 17
presentation, and then the commissioners I'm sure will have many questions to ask. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Michael Cohen: Okay. I will try to be brief. Three things really, and most importantly about the 1
affordable housing. I'm looking at Darian's side. It's [inaudible 76:26] A7. I'm not sure where it is 2
in your packet, but what you'll see is, one, the affordable units are scattered truly across the 3
site. They're not aggregated in one place. They are also proportionately set across the 3 and 4 4
bedrooms. So we put a lot of thought into making sure when you walk, drive by one of these 5
units, you're not going to know the affordable different from the market rate units and that it's 6
the opposite of segregating in one area. Second, I will note, even though we weren't legally 7
required, we have agreed to comply with the new Dark Sky Ordinance, I think in part given the 8
proximity to the Baylands. And then the last thing, which is something that's come up through 9
our experience with these kinds of projects, and it's kind of remarkable when you think about it 10
from an environmental perspective, but when you take an old office park and you convert it to 11
residential at this density, not a big high-rise tower, we significantly reduce the amount of 12
traffic to and from the site. These are rough, but roughly 2,100 trips a day go down to 1,100 13
units a day. You're almost cutting it in half. The opportunities as a matter of public policy to 14
increase housing and reduce parking are rare, and it's one of the reasons that we really love 15
these kinds of projects. Thank you. 16
17
Chair Akin: So Ms. Wagner or Mr. Burke, anything to add? All right then. I believe we are ready 18
for clarifying questions of the applicant from commissioners. Commissioner Templeton. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
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Commissioner Templeton: Thank you so much. Thank you to the applicants. I am really excited 1
about this project. Your presentation was really helpful, and so were the visuals. I mean I could 2
imagine myself living there, and I would say before I saw this project, I was not very excited 3
about developing in this area. So that's quite a transformation in my perspective. Thank you to 4
your talent and vision. I would suggest – I have a few things, and we're all going to have a few 5
things, so just strap in and get ready. So I really respect our affordable housing activist and 6
someone with a law background in housing, Ms. Dellenbach, who spoke and shared her points 7
of view. She also is a strong environmentalist, and she brought up some good points. So one of 8
the things I would encourage before you go to the next step with this project is to really talk in 9
more depth about the environmental benefits. I mean you're taking all this paving and you're 10
turning it into these lush parks and this space that people can enjoy. Nobody's going out there 11
to sit in the parking lot on the weekends right now. Right? Think about what could be 12
happening in this space, and it's an incredible gift that that's part of your vision if this should go 13
forward, so I really appreciate that. I wanted to ask, are you thinking about having any kind of 14
shortcut park access? You got that whole back wall next to the ballpark. I'm just – you're going 15
to have to think about it because if you don't build it, they're going to. 16
17
Morgan Burke: There's a path connection on the lower – I'm sorry – on the upper left hand side 18
of the drawing. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: I [inaudible 80:08]… 1
2
Morgan Burke: Yes. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: …is it that blue arrow that you were showing [inaudible 80:10]… 5
6
Morgan Burke: No. [Inaudible 80:10] was actually a sidewalk that… 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. There's a sidewalk? 9
10
Morgan Burke: …[inaudible 80:12] that will connect. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Look at you. 13
14
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 80:14]. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Already thinking it through. 17
18
Morgan Burke: Yes. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: So that's great because we want people to use this space. And right 1
now, there's not a lot of homes in the vicinity for walking to use it. People are driving, so that's 2
even more trips that will be reduced. I am concerned about the access to the schools. This is 3
something we've discussed many times as a Commission. And having driven, having biked over 4
Embarcadero and 101 and also the corollary down the highway to San Antonio, that is 5
terrifying. I would not put elementary kids on a bike to get to school that way; however, that's a 6
huge part of the experience of growing up in Palo Alto. So whether it's part of your project or 7
not, that needs to be really strong feedback that our planning department gives to help 8
improvements in that area. Because right now, nobody can walk across it, and it's going to be 9
sad if your development just increases the number of people who would want to go across but 10
can't. So I think this is something that could be a benefit for the City and maybe something to 11
talk about when you take it to Parks. 12
13
Okay. I don't know which of you this is talking to, so maybe both of you combined, but one, I 14
think on the Baylands, there can be wind at certain times of year, and the way you've 15
structured it as a little island of protected space with the design of the buildings is nice, but I 16
also wonder if that means in other times of year it's going to be really hot. And I think we did 17
have a public speaker mention it would be nice to make sure we're having cooling and places to 18
keep away from the sun and the intense heat at certain times of year, like October. So do you 19
have any – well, I don't – is it appropriate for me to ask them and them to respond, Chair? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: If we can stick to questions that you think will elucidate the discussion when it 2
comes back to us, I think that's best. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: I think we can do that. 5
6
Chair Akin: Okay. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Do you have a plan to make it tolerable for people who live there in 9
certain unpleasant times of year? I can imagine the windy times have a little protection. 10
11
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 82:32]… 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: What about hot times? 14
15
Morgan Burke: …I think that's the role of the tree planting [inaudible 82:35]. There's so much 16
robust tree planting on there, and it's not just deciduous species, and it's evergreen species as 17
well that would provide the wind block as well, and [inaudible 83:43]… 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: Lean into that when you… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Morgan Burke: …[inaudible 83:44]. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: …take it to the next presentation because I don't know if you heard, 4
but we love our trees. 5
6
Morgan Burke: Yes. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: So. 9
10
Morgan Burke: We've done numerous projects here, so we know. 11
12
Darian Wagner: [Inaudible 82:53] balconies. You do have roof decks, but that is not the only 13
open space on these units. And so there are covered balconies in some of the renderings that 14
you may have saw that does provide some protection from sun, so it's not just all bake in the 15
sun on the roof deck. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: That's very good. Well then, I'll leave – my last question on the roof 18
deck was – this is a bird highway – a migratory bird highway. There is a lot. I know you know, 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
but are we going to be seeing birds trying to nest on these roof decks? And how do we feel 1
about that? 2
3
Male: [Inaudible 83:30]. 4
5
Male: [Inaudible 83:32]. 6
7
Michael Cohen: I don't know if birds will nest there, but we have taken a number of steps 8
[inaudible 83:38]… 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: And I'm going to tell you the answer. They will. 11
12
Michael Cohen: The Dark Sky Ordinance… 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 15
16
Michael Cohen: …and frankly, just the building typology, the fact that we – lower height, lower 17
density, less glazing than a large multifamily. There's a lot that we're trying to do. I don't know 18
enough about where birds decide to nest. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Well, I used to work in a similar office building in a similar grove of 1
eucalyptus trees, and I can tell you we would go out at lunch and look at the birds – the egrets. 2
They loved it there. They nest there. They come back on a regular basis. It's very likely that 3
you'll see birds like that, or similar birds if not those. Maybe those ones only go to Mountain 4
View. Who knows? But the thing is, if your vision like you have described it is to not be 5
disruptive but to integrate with the environment, I would like for that to be something that you 6
put to the forefront and talk about. And it could be that those new trees that you're thinking 7
about could have a height or a – they like to be able to see where they're going to land, so the 8
appropriate density for birds like that. Okay. That's all for me for now. Thank you very much. 9
10
Chair Akin: Thank you. In order to simplify this for your Chair, I'm just going to go left to right. 11
So Vice Chair Chang. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: So we're trying to keep it to questions right now. Is that correct? Okay. So 14
then I have a question for you about the landscape plan. And I love that there is as much native 15
planting as there is, but given that this is in the Baylands Master Plan area, is there a way to 16
increase the – or tell me more about why it's only 50 percent native trees and why not more. 17
Can it be more? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Morgan Burke: I mean we could study it. I think there's a fine balance between creating a 1
commercial property and then doing a total nature preserve too. So we're trying to balance 2
that as well, so it's not – it's [inaudible 85:44] that they're not native, but they're climate-3
adapted species that do well here and that they're drought tolerant. It's not like they're 4
inappropriate species that we're adding here, but we're just trying to create that balance. 5
6
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. Well, I guess my 2 cents would be, given that we just talked about 7
nesting birds, I think there are native – I also know that we don't want it to look like a forest. 8
Right? So – but there's a lot of different native species that can be chosen. 9
10
Morgan Burke: It's very true. The trick too is a lot of those species that you're talking about too 11
have very aggressive root systems, and it's a tight lot. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 14
15
Morgan Burke: So we want to be cognizant of that. So we don't want to propose something 16
that's going to have a negative impact on the foundation later down the road. So. 17
18
Vice Chair Chang: Sure. So it's something that would be great to look at. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 86:29]. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: The other question I had was about the bike parking. So I saw that there's one 3
bike space per unit and then 16 kind of public spaces. And you all mentioned that this is meant 4
to be kind of family-friendly housing, and we just heard from Commissioner Templeton that in 5
Palo Alto, it's sort of a thing where everybody wants to bike to school. So I don't know of any 6
family of 3, like 2 parents and a child, much less any family of 4 that has only one bicycle. And 7
so where are people going to put their bikes? That's my question. Because they're not – these 8
units are not coming with one bicycle. And I mean the amenities right there. Right? There's all 9
these beautiful bike paths, and they can bike all over through the Baylands, so they're going to 10
come with more than one bike. Where's that going to go, and how do we make this an amenity 11
– like a real amenity for the people who live there? 12
13
Michael Cohen: I'm going to let the designer try to answer… 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: Great. 16
17
Michael Cohen: …this, but I do think the answer is the garage. But… 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Darian Wagner: There is – in some of these houses, we are at least showing 2 bike parking 2
spaces, at least in the garage and in some of the – so at least one in every one, but there's more 3
than that in some of them. And I think from Planning Commission as well, they reiterated – 4
people are going to have strollers and… 5
6
Vice Chair Chang: [Inaudible 87:51]. 7
8
Darian Wagner: …[inaudible 87:51] and things, and so there are units that have additional space 9
for some of that to go that do allow for that – not every single unit. So some of the tandems 10
and garages… 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 13
14
Darian Wagner: …[inaudible 88:01]. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: I mean I'm specifically looking at the – right? Because some people have side 17
yards, and they can put their bikes there. It's those other units where – we want this to be truly 18
livable, and we do want the car trips to be as low as you hope that they are… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Darian Wagner: Yes. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: …that you've projected. 3
4
Darian Wagner: Yes. So every unit was not – [inaudible 88:22] garages was not designed to 5
complete minimums on every single garage. So in some units there's ample opportunity for 6
more, and so it'll just depend on the homeowner and which house they want to buy. And 7
maybe that may be a buying point for one of the house plans over the other. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: So is that – you said in some of the units. 10
11
Darian Wagner: Yes. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: Can you be more specific about how many? 14
15
Darian Wagner: [Inaudible 88:42]. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: And to the extent that there are – there is a design for more than 145 bike 18
spaces, I think that you should like that. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Darian Wagner: Yes. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: That's a good thing. 3
4
Darian Wagner: Yes. So looking at [inaudible 88:55] Plan 1 and Plan 2 of the single-family 5
detached, the duplexes offer more space than that. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. And I'm least concerned about the duplexes… 8
9
Darian Wagner: Yes. 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: …and most concerned about the units with the… 12
13
Darian Wagner: The townhouses? 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: …the townhouses with tandem parking spaces. 16
17
Darian Wagner: The tandem – the car [inaudible 89:13]… 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: Because they don't have a side yard, so that's why I'm… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Darian Wagner: They don't, but they have some – I'll call it a leftover kind of storage space that 2
there's some [inaudible 89:20] storage space that potentially far more than just the 2 cars could 3
fit, and along on the side as well. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: And is it secure? 6
7
Darian Wagner: Yes, within their… 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 10
11
Darian Wagner: …yes. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: All right. Thank you. And then finally, you had mentioned that even though 14
it's not required, that you're going to abide by the new Dark Skies. Is that mentioned anywhere 15
in the conditions of approval or anything? 16
17
Jennifer Armer: So the Dark Skies was only adopted… 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: I know. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: …on Monday, and… 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: I know. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: …there were some modifications made as part of that… 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Right. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: …adoption, but it could be part of the PTC's recommendation that that be 10
added… 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: …to the conditions… 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: Great. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: …of approval. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: Thank you. 1
2
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. Commissioner Ji. 3
4
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. One of the questions I had was about the number of units. 5
So I'm looking through the Housing Element here, and I see that for lot 2100-2200 Geng Road, 6
which is about half the size of this lot, it's listed that there's going to – supposed to be 175 units 7
per the Housing Element, but I see here that you've provided double the amount of space with 8
145 units. So can you just talk a little bit more about that? 9
10
Michael Cohen: Excuse me. I think I'll defer to staff on that. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: So… 13
14
Steven Switzer: Sure. So the – let's see here how to frame this. So the – one of the project sites 15
was identified or called out by APN, so that is what is referenced perhaps in the Housing 16
Element inventory site that you're referring to. So that was 175 units at moderate income level, 17
and the applicant is proposing, of course, 145, so coming in below that anticipated amount. 18
When City staff identifies these housing inventory sites, it's a good guess, if you will, on perhaps 19
what a developer might do on a project site. I think when that site was identified, it was 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
subscribed that number. I don't know exactly how those calculations were garnered, but it is 1
coming in below that, so… 2
3
Jennifer Armer: I'll add the additional clarification that when we assign a certain number of 4
units to a potential housing development site as part of the Housing Element, it is a projection. 5
It's an estimate of how many units we think we could justify to the State as likely to occur there, 6
but it's not a minimum. There isn't any requirement the developer come in, and it's not 7
unusual. A lot of cities are seeing that this type of townhome development is very popular in 8
the market these days, and there's a high interest both in building them and buying them. And 9
therefore, it's not uncommon that we have applicants coming in proposing projects that have 10
fewer housing units than what we projected. And we are looking into what the next steps are 11
for that. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. And then back to the developer. I believe in your introductory 14
presentation, you described this as hopefully affordable to first-time homebuyers. Do you mean 15
just the affordable units or like hopeful like – can you talk a little bit more about that? 16
17
Michael Cohen: Sure. No. I mean the market rate units. And I will say, we all have to take this 18
with a certain amount of relativity because depending who you ask, the average home price for 19
a single-family home in Palo Alto can be north of $4M. The – one of the reasons I think that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
you're seeing this segment really finally start to grow in California is because we have this 1
structural undersupply. And one of the reasons that the variability in the unit sizes is so 2
important is when you're really selling these units, on some level you're selling them a price per 3
foot. And so a 1600 square foot home sells for quite a bit less than a 1900 square foot home. 4
From the world I grew up in, these homes will still be expensive. Right? But on a relative basis, 5
they will be much less expensive than buying what is typically available, not just in Palo Alto, 6
but in this part of the Bay Area as a first-time single homebuyer. 7
8
Commissioner Ji: And then did you think about having – I noticed that they was all like 3 and 4 9
bedroom. Did you think about having kind of a diverse set of different bedroom sizes for this 10
size or – for this lot, or did you think mostly in 3 and 4 bedrooms? 11
12
Michael Cohen: We really did – some of this was informed by our experience with other 13
projects and really trying to understand this market, and particularly with the focus on families, 14
that I think a smaller, 1600 square foot, 3-bedroom – some people may turn that third bedroom 15
into an office, but we really want to give the buyers the broadest opportunity to be able to lean 16
into staying here for hopefully as long as they can, even with a growing family. So the 2 – a 2-17
bedroom, for example, was just not a really efficient use of the space here. 18
19
Commissioner Ji: All right. Thank you. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Commissioner James. 2
3
Commissioner James: I feel very comfortable with the questions that have been asked. I'm 4
going to pass to my colleague to the right. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. 7
8
Chair Akin: Commissioner Hechtman. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: So the path to the ballpark – is that depicted, for example on A51, as 11
the space between Building Units 14 and 15? There's like a 20-foot gap there. I'm just trying 12
to… 13
14
Morgan Burke: I don't know. [Inaudible 95:17] – what sheet? 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: I'm looking at A.5.1. 17
18
Morgan Burke: I'm sorry. I only got the landscape drawings in front of me. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. 1
2
Morgan Burke: No. It's to the left of Unit 1 there, in that triangular area on… 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh. 5
6
Morgan Burke: …the far left side. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Got it. 9
10
Morgan Burke: There should be a path in there. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. Thank you. Next question, just sort of a safety issue. We've 13
had – oh. Sorry. 14
15
Female: Just through the Chair, we are sharing on the screen… 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh. 18
19
Female: …the illustration of that location of that path in case that's helpful. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So that squiggly blue line gets you into sort of the back of the 2
back lot behind the ballfield. 3
4
Morgan Burke: That's [inaudible 95:59]. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman : Okay. Yes. And then it's just kind of a free walk through there. Okay. 7
8
Morgan Burke: Correct. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: So we have actually had a few kids who now or have played pro ball 11
hit baseballs out of that park. And so I was just a little curious. Your homes are closest at pretty 12
much dead center on the larger field. And so is there any thought of risk of broken glass and 13
maybe stronger windows just at that straightaway point where you're the closest? If not, you 14
might want to. 15
16
Michael Cohen: I don't know the exact measurement. I know we measured it before. I think 17
from home plate to where the big eucalyptus trees, which will be replaced with big, beautiful 18
new trees, but maybe more native, was about 415 feet. And then there was about another 20 19
because they all have backyards, and my first thought on this was anyone who could hit it out 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
should go play for the Giants right away. We have thought about it. It has come up in 1
conversations. I think the short answer is – obviously, in growing a community like this over 2
time, putting netting up feels like it'd be really unattractive. And honestly, if somebody can hit it 3
that far, it might be kind of cool, but there is a very healthy distance. I would have to defer to 4
Darian in terms of thinking about where the windows are in the back in relation to that. But we 5
did measure it because it has come up in conversation with various stakeholders, and it was a 6
Ruthian shot to… 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 9
10
Michael Cohen: …[inaudible 97:47] out of there. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: And I was expecting but mostly concerned that you had at least given 13
it some thought and decided on your course of action. Related to that back line –it sounds like 14
today we don't know what the Parks Department will do in terms of having you put trees on 15
city property or retain them all at the edge of the back row that we're talking about. And so I 16
was just curious about your landscaping vision for that row of front-loaded units, their back 17
windows are going to look out in the direction of the ball field, and so in your planting plan, 18
you've got sort of a mix of interests of privacy versus beautiful green space. And so, since I can't 19
really tell the kinds of trees or plants you're putting back there, what's the thought? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Morgan Burke: So a couple different things here. It's a great question. One, it's a private yard, 2
so we're not going to do any program in there. We are planting a tree, or 2 trees per yard back 3
there, which is a tall, upright tree that will fit in the conditions of native tree. It's Catalina 4
Ironwood there. So that goes along that entire back row. There's also a good neighbor fence 5
that'll be there. It's a 6-foot tall fence. And on top of that, it'll be mounted on top of the 6
retaining wall that has to hold the site up as well. So you have that – you're going to have that 7
grade separation as well to screen. So for their vantage point, they have cart blanche to design 8
their backyard as they see fit, but we're going to provide that one tree to provide screening for 9
the overall property. So that's the vision as it stands now. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. I've heard from staff that the range of fill is going to be in the 2 12
to 6 foot range depending upon the area of the site. What's the average height of that retaining 13
wall along that back row? 14
15
Morgan Burke: [Inaudible 99:44]. Yes, 2. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: About 2? 18
19
Morgan Burke: Two feet. Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. And then the final question is really about the product 2
type. I understand entirely why you have selected the product type you have. That is the hot 3
market, and I am hoping that this project will move forward fast enough for you to get it 4
approved and built in time to catch that market. That'd be great. I know we've got not the same 5
but a similar product type that Summer Hill is finishing across 101, and reports we get from 6
them are there's a lot of excitement, and that's going to move. And so I think that's great, but 7
you may have noticed in our staff report, and Commissioner Ji just alluded to it, in our Housing 8
Element, part of this land was contemplated for moderate income units rather than market 9
rate. And so, I understand why you went market, but I was wondering if you contemplated 10
could we do a moderate rate development here? What would that look like? Obviously it'll 11
change the economics, probably the number of units, and the only reason I ask is – and this is 12
more the City's problem, not yours, but because this is such a big chunk of the moderate units 13
that we were contemplating, when those no longer become feasible here because you've built 14
something different, we've got to start a process of finding another place in the city to 15
designate for moderate. So I'm just curious if you thought about it, and obviously if you did, I 16
know how you came down. 17
18
Michael Cohen: Yes. It's a good question. The short answer – we focused initially on the zoning, 19
what did the zoning permit, and meeting that density range between 11 and 19 units per acre. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
As much as there are things I love about this process of being able to convert an old office park 1
into new residential housing, which I think is really a great opportunity across the region and 2
the state, it does come with a cost. Office parks have value. They're not as valuable as they 3
were 5 years ago in some cases. You'd never see this in Stanford Research Park or on Sand Hill 4
Road. It just wouldn't work, but even in this location – so I don't think that it is a feasible 5
strategy given that, and if I wasn't around on the Housing Element, given that there were 6
existing office uses here, I probably would've said maybe put it somewhere else. We've done a 7
lot of work as a company with middle-income housing, and the math tends to work a lot better 8
in multifamily rental projects. I think there are going to be a lot of opportunities in Palo Alto and 9
the San Antonio [Inaudible 102:42] Road plan and other areas to make up some of that ground, 10
but it just – it's not economically feasible given there's already – you're starting behind a cost 11
basis scraping an office park. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Thank you. 14
15
Chair Akin: Commissioner Peterson. 16
17
Female: Sorry. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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Commissioner Peterson: Thank you, Chair. Quick question. So on this site, educate me on the 1
Builder's Remedy requirements, if there's skilled and trained workforce requirements under the 2
Builder's Remedy or if that has been triggered through either a CEQA process or through any of 3
your funding sources, if it's – you have public funding. 4
5
Albert Yang: There's not any such requirement on this project. 6
7
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. 8
9
Chair Akin: Anything else, Commissioner Peterson? 10
11
Commissioner Peterson: No. That's it. That's all I wanted to ask. 12
13
Chair Akin: All right. The advantage of going last in this process is that most of my questions 14
have already been answered. But I just did want to confirm – the packet describes many of the 15
modifications that you expect to undertake in order to be as compatible as possible with the 16
Baylands wildlife, and the only one that I noticed being absent was color temperature of 17
exterior lighting. Now, the Dark Skies Ordinance does cover that, so I wondered if you had 18
considered it as part of your earlier work. So the goal here would be to have the exterior 19
lighting limited to 2700 Kelvin or warmer. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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1
Morgan Burke: There's a note about it. As far as the site lighting is concerned, on sheet L5.2, 2
there's a whole paragraph about – multiple paragraphs about bird-safe lighting, and it does say 3
to hold the temperature to 2700 Kelvins. 4
5
Chair Akin: That's what I expected, but good. Thank you for confirming that. All right. I believe 6
everything else on my list has been covered. So Commissioners, if there are no more qualifying 7
– Commissioner Templeton. One… 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Sorry. 10
11
Chair Akin: …more clarifying question? 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Sorry. I just was rereading my notes, and I forgot to ask about the 14
lawn. The grass is – that we're expecting that that's going to use up – my lawn that I don't want 15
to keep uses up a lot of water. Can you tell me about your lawn choice? Thank you. 16
17
Morgan Burke: It's – I think you can do it a variety of different ways, and you can offset that 18
water use by keeping the shrub planting demand or that water demand down throughout the 19
rest of the site so that you can have actual turf in that space. The other option that I'm not a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
huge fan of is to use synthetic turf as well, and then you don't have any water, but you don't 1
want to do that. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Don't do that. Well, I… 4
5
Morgan Burke: No. I think it's a balance game between what – we're going to have so much 6
low-water-use planting on the site given the amount of native planting that we're going to have 7
here in terms of the shrubs – I'm not talking about the trees – that it should offset what we 8
would need to carry that. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. 11
12
Chair Akin: Any more questions for the applicant before we bring it back to the Commission for 13
discussion? No? All right then. Thank you. You're free to withdraw if you like. All right, 14
Commissioners. It's time for general discussion. And once again, I will move left to right. So 15
Commissioner Templeton, would you like to begin? 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. Thank you so much, Chair. I really like this project. I mentioned 18
before I was a little skeptical at first, but reading through it and listening to the presentation 19
has been very encouraging. I do hope that the City will consider more in that space. I think the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
problem that I've had developing here before is it didn't really understand how to deal with the 1
flooding, and it sounds like this is a technique that has been used successfully in other parts. 2
And really with sea level rise, this is what we're going to have to deal with. That's where our 3
land is. So I'm really interested in that, and I hope that maybe some of those nearby industrial, 4
former commercial sites could be new neighbors if this project goes through. So I don't have 5
any more details. Most of my questions were the practical questions I had to ask the applicant. 6
But in general, I like the idea of having the diversity of the different levels of income, the 7
different size of units, and the different kinds of people it will attract. I like the proximity to 8
work, opportunities for different kinds of laborers. Right? We've got technical folks. We've got 9
building materials and supplies nearby and everything in between. We have a lot of 10
opportunities for the kinds of people we can attract. And of course, whether this is specified for 11
teacher housing or not, we hope that people that are teachers and nurses and other lower-12
income folks can access this space and join our community. So thank you very much. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Vice Chair Chang. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. So I'll talk about the things that I like about this project and things that I 17
hope we can maybe make some changes or conditions of approval to address tonight. So I'm 18
really pleased to see the office conversion because that helps our jobs-housing imbalance. It's 19
really nice to see a project that's adequately parked. I'm glad that the market is speaking here 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
because I think it would be hard to sell homes that are not adequately parked. And it's nice also 1
to see the larger number of bedrooms because in almost all the other projects that we've seen 2
here this year that are multifamily homes, it's been really rare to even see a 3-bedroom. So 3
while there's not as much affordability in terms of percentage as I would like, this one 4
development with its – was it 19 units? I think that's – I don't think we have 19 three-bedroom 5
affordable units in all the other projects that we've seen this year. So that, I think, is actually 6
really fantastic because my concern has always been that – great. So you have a 1-bedroom or 7
a 2-bedroom that's affordable, but then what are we going to do with this family that lives 8
there that's now a part of the community? They're not going to have any place to move to. So 9
this solves that problem for 19 households. 10
11
I love that there's plenty of open space per unit. So that's really nice and I think very 12
appropriate given that this is in the Baylands Master Plan area. And love that the affordability 13
that there is, is in the 50 to 80 percent AMI, which I think we've discussed here many times on 14
the Commission, that we see things that are effectively market rate because, as the developer 15
mentioned, the market sets rent sort of based on per square foot. And so here with these larger 16
units, we've got 2 things that make for real affordability, which is one, these are quite large. 17
Second, at the 50 to 80 percent of AMI, we're not talking about 120 percent of area median 18
income, which is more than what half the people make. [Inaudible 111:15] I think it's a state 19
law problem that we have, so I'm really glad to see that this is like real affordability here, and I 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
love the natural plantings that the landscape architect spoke about. I do hope that kind of given 1
where this is – yes, I know we're improving on a parking lot and improving on eucalyptus trees 2
by having 50 percent native trees, but I just think that to make it more of an amenity even for 3
the people who live there, it would be good to have as high a percentage of natives trees as 4
possible. Second, I couldn't really see the bike parking, but I really do think that for the size of 5
units that we're talking about, [inaudible 112:03] it sounds like it's more than one bike space 6
per unit, but we really do need to – that becomes a real problem for a household, I think. A real 7
problem. 8
9
And finally, I hope, as I mentioned in my questions that I hope that we can add a condition of 10
approval, since the developers already said that they will agree to abide by our new Dark Skies 11
Ordinance, that we can add that and codify that as a condition of approval. So that's – the final 12
note is that when I first started looking at this project, I was struck by how it is on a parcel that 13
is now double the size of what was counted in our Housing Element. So it is about 11 acres 14
instead of the 5 acres in our Housing Element, and it's going to provide fewer units of housing 15
than what we're counting in our Housing Element. Now, there's many good reasons for all of 16
that that I mentioned earlier in terms of the larger unit sizes, but I just – this is an example of 17
how developers build housing. The City doesn't build housing, and the market has spoken here. 18
And so it makes me really wonder about sort of like our overall housing allocation given that 19
this is what people want to build, and it's also one of the very few projects that we've seen on a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
parcel of this size. The other thing that we've seen is Fry's, so this is 2 in the entire time that I've 1
been on the Planning Commission. And so it just – I think the State might be a little bit 2
misguided in terms of what is actually feasible for the market. Thanks. 3
4
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. Commissioner Ji. 5
6
Commissioner Ji: Always a tough act to follow, Vice Chair Chang. I will not kind of repeat a lot of 7
the comments. I think one thing that the Commission knows is that I'm sensitive about parking, 8
and I'm very excited to know that the parking – there seems to be adequate parking for this 9
area. I'm also pretty excited about the large bedrooms. As Vice Chair Chang mentioned, we 10
don't really see that many projects that are this bedroom size. As Commissioner Hechtman 11
alluded to, it is actually the City's problem to go figure out where those moderate-income 12
housing is going to go, but I would've liked to have been able to allocate some of that here, 13
although it appears that the market has spoken and this is what makes sense here. I am 14
incredibly excited also about the amount of open space. I think that, in my short time on the 15
Commission so far, I feel like I've seen a lot of projects with pretty tight spaces. For example, 70 16
Encina, where there's very little amounts of open space. Having grown up in Palo Alto, I think 17
that it is very exciting to be able to walk to my friend's house through a community path or go 18
play baseball in the park right behind, and I think that I'm pretty excited about the 19
opportunities that are provided here. And yes – I think those are my comments. Thank you. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Ji. Commissioner James. 2
3
Commissioner James: Thank you. I don't have a lot to say that hasn't been said, but I'm really 4
pleased, as others have said, to see this office space redeveloped into residential – into housing 5
to kind of try and correct an imbalance that we are concerned about. I'm extremely pleased 6
that the owner did not submit a Builder Remedy plan for a 30-story building. So the simple fact 7
that good judgment sort of prevailed and it was – matched the zoning fairly closely, I think 8
that's wonderful. I'm pleased that the study session with the ARB was productive and just 9
another example of kind of a sensitivity that we would hope all Builder's Remedy projects 10
would conform to or make themselves available to. And lastly, I'll just say that I think you've 11
done a good job of representing it, designing it, thinking about it. When I visited the site, it 12
reminded me that I need to take my son out there and bike on the Baylands, and I echo what 13
Commissioner Ji said about sort of being able to walk to friends and that it's going to be family 14
centric or family oriented, and then to be able to avail themselves of the Baylands. I think that's 15
– I can imagine that being a very nice place for Palo Altans to live, so good creative problem 16
solving in my view. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner James. Commissioner Hechtman. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. So I am supportive of the staff recommendation here. I think it's 1
a great project, and I'm very familiar with that development. My former law firm, after I worked 2
there, is located in that complex., and it's funny, I've been there many times, but I never even 3
thought about it as potential housing. And so I'm glad there are people who think more 4
creatively than I do. And style is not our issue, but I like the style, and I like the sensitivity, and I 5
liked the listening you did with the ARB. Appreciate that. Something nobody mentioned but 6
that I appreciate is – I think about this more because of our future plans for the end of San 7
Antonio and the sort of proximity to amenities and shopping, but this location – there are 2 8
excellent grocery stores right in that Home Depot complex, and a variety of other things that 9
people – families are going to be able to utilize, and those are close. Those are a lot closer to 10
those homes than many of our folks up in the Palo Alto Hills who have substantially more of a 11
drive to get to the nearest grocery store and whatnot. So I really like that. Of course, the open 12
space possibilities here are kind of phenomenal. I am forever plugging the Baylands because I'm 13
there almost every day, very close to my house, and I am often making a pitch that I'm out 14
there alone. So please ride your bike. Come out and join me. So maybe I'll see a few more 15
people once you get that built. And of course they're right by the ballpark, which is a great 16
place to picnic when there's not baseballs flying. And so I think there's a lot of really good, 17
positive things. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Now I'm kind of thinking forward to a motion and question for Mr. Yang. So Vice Chair Chang 1
has floated the idea of adding as a modification to the staff recommendation a condition of 2
approval regarding the application of the Dark Sky Ordinance. And I'm hearing the applicants 3
saying that they're okay with that because that's their plan anyway, but my question is going 4
beyond that, given the constraints we have on this Builder's Remedy project, other things that 5
have been mentioned like increasing bike parking or increasing the natives above the proposed 6
50 percent, can we impose those if the developer of this Builder's Remedy project is not 7
agreeable? 8
9
Albert Yang: So no. This is before the Planning Commission as a Site and Design application, and 10
so there are findings that you have to make. And obviously, the state law influences how you 11
make those findings. But if there are conditions that the Commission believes are necessary to 12
make findings, it can impose those conditions so long as they don't render the project 13
infeasible. And so it's not something – in some cases, you can tell off the bat it's not going to 14
render the project infeasible or that it will, and then there are other types of conditions where 15
there would need to be more analysis on that question. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Thank you. That's sufficient clarification. I have some particular 18
corrections for some of the documentation, but I'm going to hold that until we've heard from 19
Commissioner Peterson and the Chair, on a second round. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Hechtman. Commissioner Peterson. 2
3
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you, Chair. So I also agree with the – I'm supportive of staff 4
recommendation. I echo everyone else's comments that it does seem like an innovative place. I 5
had never imagined this to be a housing spot, but now looking at it and seeing the adjacence to 6
the ballpark, the adjacent to the golf course, adjacent to the airport, adjacent to the Baylands, 7
the bike path that does cross the freeway, this site amazingly does have a lot of stuff. And 8
there's a lot of employment over there. There's a lot of jobs right there localized over there 9
across the freeway. So one of the questions that I wanted to bring up, and I did bring it up, was 10
the quality of the construction. That's always my first interest. Is this going to be constructed – 11
by who? It looks like a great project in the pictures, and they always do, but then we all know 12
what it looks like when something's actually constructed. You don't always get what you saw. 13
But of course, I also saw with my question that the Builder's Remedy – that this project, the 14
skilled and trained workforce is off the table for discussion, and I didn't see the applicant step 15
on that topic to talk about, so I'll leave it there. So I am supportive as well. Thank you. 16
17
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Of course, most of what I will say is repeating what's 18
been said earlier, but I would like to do it anyway just to reinforce the conclusions. I also will be 19
supporting recommendation of the project. Of course, the State gives us no choice in that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
matter, but fortunately, the project still has a lot to recommend it, and we touched on all these. 1
The larger units are great for families. Reducing the office oversupply is something we should've 2
been doing more of for a long time. Compared to many projects we see, it's compatible with 3
adjacent uses to a much greater extent than normal. I appreciate that. And it has better 4
environmental compatibility than the existing uses, and many other things that have been 5
considered. Those were. Ownership opportunities are very limited these days, so of course 6
that's a huge plus. I do have regrets about a few things. With 11 acres, there's a rare 7
opportunity here to create a neighborhood with enough physical variety of housing types that 8
you could sustain people through several stages of their lives. People could move into a 1 or 2-9
bedroom and then as they start families could move into larger units. As the families move on, 10
they could move back into smaller ones. That's the kind of dynamic use of space that creates 11
neighborhoods that I believe would last for a long time. So I regret that there's not more 12
opportunity for that here. I fully understand the economics, and this is a question that we deal 13
with constantly. 14
15
As has been mentioned, it also has less than half the density and much less affordability than 16
what we'd anticipated for the area. This is a general point that I've touched on before, but I'll 17
reinforce it for folks who are coming to this for the first time. Our RHNA target for low-income 18
housing in this range is 40 percent of new units, and that closely matches both the existing 19
distribution in the city and the county. So when the state requires only 13 percent of units to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
qualify for such a development, if most projects were like this one, we'd be gentrifying the city 1
rapidly. And furthermore, we'd risk being decertified at the next HCD review because we're 2
failing to make enough progress on affordability. So this is a real hurdle that we have to find a 3
better way of dealing with. And of course, some of that is going to be how do we arrange 4
financing on a larger scale, and some of it I hope will be working more closely with developers 5
in the future to find other ways that we might be able to address it. If part of this project were 1 6
and 2-bedroom rental flats, one building worth could've made a difference. I don't get to see 7
the proformas, so I don't know what's possible, but it is something that I think about frequently. 8
9
So again, I'll be recommending that the project go ahead when the motion is stated, but I just 10
wanted to make it clear that I think the constraints that the State is imposing on this process 11
don't guarantee new residents either affordability or the quality of life that we might like them 12
to have. So we're working with those constraints. All right. That's all from me, so unless there 13
are any other discussions that we need to undertake, I believe we should try for a motion. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Chair? 16
17
Chair Akin: Commissioner Hechtman? Yes. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. I did have some clean-up items to the language of the 1
documents that I'd like to suggest before a motion. 2
3
Chair Akin: Please do. Yes. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. Thank you. So as always when I do this, staff, these are 6
things I have identified that may need to be changed, but I leave it to your discretion to decide 7
whether or not they do need to be changed. Some of them I'm pretty sure you're going to want 8
to change. Others I'm not so sure. And so I'm just going to go front to back. I've got8 or 9 of 9
them. I'll start with the Record of Land Use Action. Go to Packet Page 25, top of the page, 10
Section 2. The description, fifth line, you refer to the transportation elements’ goals, and 11
policies, where I think you mean the Housing Element because we're talking about housing 12
units and imbalance. So I think that's supposed to be housing. Next page, Packet Page 26, at the 13
bottom of the table, the last policy, T-3.9, in the project adherence box, you refer to the 218 14
trees to be removed from the site but don't make a reference to the 52 to be removed from the 15
city property, and I think somewhere in this documentation we have to acknowledge that to 16
tee up their ability to do it. 17
18
Then we go to Packet Page 28, and I'm a little bit of a broken record because every time we get 19
the Vesting Tentative Map Findings, I ask that you do this. Findings 1 and 2 both talk about 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
specific plans and general plans, and we only ever write the sentence for Finding 2 that there is 1
no adopted specific plan for the project site. So in your template, if you could add that same 2
sentence to 1, I won't have to ask about it again. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for catching that again. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. Okay. Next, Packet Page 29, top paragraph, last full line, again 7
reference to transportation element that I think you mean Housing Element. And at the bottom 8
of that page, the last 2 lines, you've got the reference to the 218 on-site trees but not the 52 9
off-site. Again, you decide whether that's appropriate. And then in the last line, you have a 10
reference to 641 replacement trees. I think that number is 648. Going to Packet Page 30, 11
bottom of the page, Section 8, final map, 3 lines from the bottom, you refer to the Conditions 12
of Approval in Section 8. Those are now in Section 9. Next is Page 35. Toward the top of the 13
page, Condition of Approval 17, Tree Canopy – replacement of the tree canopy for the 2 trees 14
proposed to be removed. I think that's an understatement, so that number should be 15
corrected. And also on the trees, Packet Pages 46 to 48, so this whole Public Works Urban 16
Forestry section I would encourage you to look at. This is contemplating really the typical 17
situation where you're retaining trees on site and you have to protect them. Here, as I 18
understand it, every single tree on site is going away, and so I think perhaps some of these 19
provisions may apply to the new plantings, but the ones that talk about protecting trees – those 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
are not applicable. And so that should be cleaned up. And so those are the changes I'd ask staff 1
to look at. 2
3
Chair Akin: Quick question following up on Commissioner Hechtman's last point – would there 4
be street trees that need to be protected using this provision? Mr. Switzer, if you could… 5
6
Steven Switzer: Yes. 7
8
Chair Akin: …handle it. 9
10
Steven Switzer: Yes, there would be, along Geng Road. 11
12
Chair Akin: All right. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: So if I can just follow up to understand that – so that edge of the 15
property along Geng – I guess there's going to be a tapering down of the raised fill to meet 16
existing grade where those trees are so those trees can stay. Okay. All right. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: And so thank you for that clarification, Chair. So I didn't look at these 1
provisions through that lens, and so maybe no changes are necessary, but I'll ask staff to look at 2
it as it moves forward. 3
4
Chair Akin: Thank you very much. I also had several nits on this, but staff already has them, so I 5
won't bore you with them tonight. Are there any other discussion points? All right then. We're 6
ready for a motion. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang : [Inaudible 133:22]… 9
10
Chair Akin: Vice Chair Chang. 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: …I will try because I want to try and add one thing, so maybe you all can help 13
me. So I'd like to move the staff recommendation and add a recommendation that we add a 14
condition of approval that the project complies with the new Dark Skies Ordinance. And then 15
second – I'm trying to figure out how to do this. I would like to increase the percentage of 16
native trees, and I would rely on a couple different findings to do this, in which we're supposed 17
to be consistent with our comp plan, which then also requires that we're consistent with the 18
Baylands Master Plan. But I also don't want it to be overly onerous, and so I don't think it makes 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
sense to ask for 100 percent because there's – so I would like some feedback here on that part 1
of the motion. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: If I may… 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: …what I would recommend is that your recommendation be that the 8
percentage of native trees be increased without specifying a percentage… 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: Good. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: …and that staff can work with the applicant to see what is feasible, since that is 13
a critical part of this as well. In addition, in terms of determining things that are native, one 14
thing to keep in mind – as the climate and weather patterns do change in our area, what 15
originally was native is no longer always the appropriate planting for this area. And so that is a 16
component of what goes into choosing these, but I would say recommending an increase for 17
staff to work… 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: …with the applicant. 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: So then it wouldn't be a condition of approval, but it would be an addition to 4
the motion that I would like to add that we recommend that there's an increase in the 5
percentage of native trees and that staff work with the applicant to achieve that. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Do you want to say appropriate or do we need to put any modifiers 8
on increase? Like I don't – it's not coming back to us, so we want to give any guidance to 9
Council or just increase? 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: Increase because I'm not a landscape architect and none of us are, so 12
[inaudible 135:39]… 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Well I know, but they gave us what they thought was the maximum, 15
so we are actually giving them input. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: Well, they said they could look at it, so I think… 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: I have seen a nod from the applicant that they're willing to work with us to 1
increase it. 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: All right. So I think we need a second. 4
5
Chair Akin: So just restating the motion, staff recommendation with the addition of a condition 6
of approval to meet the provisions of the Dark Skies Ordinance, and then a recommendation for 7
staff to work with the applicant to increase the percentage of native trees. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Before we have a potential second on that, can I clarify with the 10
maker of the motion? Are you also including the potential modifications that the Chair had 11
earlier supplied and the ones that I mentioned? 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. Let me just explicitly add that… 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: …as well as an addition to incorporate the suggestions or to – for staff to look 18
at the suggestions that both Commissioner Hechtman and Chair Akin have passed on to staff. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Ji: I actually have a question. 1
2
Chair Akin: Commissioner Ji? 3
4
Commissioner Ji: Yes. For Vice Chair Chang's additions, do they have to tie to a specific finding 5
at this time, staff? 6
7
Jennifer Armer: No, I don't believe so. With the additional condition of approval, that is 8
something that the applicant agreed to, and so that is an acceptable – my understanding is 9
that's an acceptable way to include it with no need to specifically reference the findings. 10
11
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: All right then. We're looking for a second. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: I'll second. 16
17
Chair Akin: Very good. Mr. Tavera, would you call the vote? 18
19
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Commissioner Ji. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson. 4
5
Commissioner Peterson: Yes. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 10
11
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James. 12
13
Commissioner James: Yes. 14
15
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Happily. 18
19
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin. 4
5
Chair Akin: Yes, definitely. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries, 7-0. 8
9
Chair Akin: Thank you all… 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Are we showing enthusiasm in our votes? Should I be – have been 12
more enthusiastic, Chair? 13
14
Chair Akin: Why not? Thank you, Applicant and Public Commenters, very much, and 15
Commissioners for an excellent discussion. I would like to take a break now until 8:30. We will 16
return with the next item on our agenda. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Senior Planner Kelly Cha: Thank you, Sam, and thank you for your patience. Good evening, 1
Chair, Vice Chair, and commissioners. My name is Kelly Cha. I'm here to present the Draft Bird-2
Friendly Design Ordinance. Next, please. 3
4
So as you may be aware, the City's Comprehensive Plan, which was adopted back in 2017, 5
includes a policy that encourages bird-friendly design regulations to reduce the potential for 6
bird collisions, and for the last several years, it has been a City Council priority objective. Next, 7
please. 8
9
And the effort for this development started back in 2024, and since then, we've received 10
feedback from both Architectural Review Board and Planning and Transportation Commission 11
through hearings as well as community members who participated and voiced their opinions on 12
this matter. And at the last hearing with the Planning and Transportation Commission, we 13
received recommendation from the Commission to the Council. The direction actually is 14
reflected in the Draft Ordinance Attachment A of the report. Since it's been a while, I will 15
quickly go over the draft ordinance in a high level. So the draft ordinance basically applied to – 16
would apply to new construction, major remodel, and replacement or installation of new 17
windows, and those applicable projects would need to provide treated glazing of a certain 18
percentage, no more than 40 percent or no more than 10 percent depending on type of 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
development and whether they're located within or outside of the bird-sensitive area. And the 1
ordinance defines the bird-sensitive area right now the area east of Highway 101, west of 2
Foothill Expressway, or 300-foot buffer from natural streams. Next, please. 3
4
And to meet the bird-friendly – next, please – to meet the bird-friendly design requirements, 5
they have currently 3 options. The first one is a permanent visual cues like dots that are no 6
more than 2 inches apart from each other – next, please – and lines that are no more than 2 7
inches apart as shown here – and next, please – as well as external features that breaks up the 8
glazing with no gaps larger than 9 inches from each other. That includes insect screens, any 9
other exterior features. And in addition to that, non-permanent markers like films and decals 10
are allowed by only for residential projects or residential portion of the mixed-use projects. 11
Next, please. 12
13
And the draft ordinance also allows some alternative compliance, but this option requires a 14
report from a professional with specific accreditation and years of experience in bird-friendly 15
building design. And also, it exempts a couple – a few different types of the structures and 16
buildings, including historic structures, affordable housing, ADUs, and some commercial first-17
floor windows. Next, please. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
So while staff was preparing for the draft ordinance, per Commission's direction, we became 2
sort of aware of the concerns about cost and availability of these treated glazing. So we went 3
back to the research that we had done on other cities to see how they have addressed them, 4
and we found that these 3 cities – San Francisco, Cupertino, and Berkeley – they essentially – 5
not straightforward but essentially exempt single-family homes because of the similar reasons. 6
Next, please. 7
8
And so we conducted additional conversation with local architects, glass retailers and 9
manufacturer, and also other City staff to find out what they had done in terms of research, and 10
then we found that securing that compliant glazing was quite – become – would be a very 11
significant challenge in both because of the cost and availability. So retailers don't locally stock 12
these glasses because most are unaware of the product, and this means that homeowners 13
would have to special order these glasses through retailers or professionals, which will then 14
significantly delay their project timeline then – and add overall – adds to the overall budget. 15
And a manufacturer informed up that there's really no dedicated residential market for bird-16
safe glasses, so that means that the homeowners would have to actually buy commercial-rated 17
glazing and then add additional cost of bird-safe treatment, which will be quite significant 18
increase in their budget. And so on top of that – so while the non-permanent options like films 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and decals and also insect screens, one of the affordable exterior feature option, they are 1
affordable for residential but films and decals pose some environmental concerns as well as 2
we've learned that it's a little bit difficult to actually apply without some help from 3
professionals. And also – and the insect screens may not be architecturally compatible for some 4
of the windows. Actually, for the openings, it may not be possible to have that. So the 5
manufactured glazing might end up being the most viable options for some of the single-family 6
homes, so that's an added cost. So that really worried staff that we brought this back to the 7
Planning and Transportation Commission. 8
9
So staff are recommending an exemption for single-family homes, which are – which make up 10
over 80 percent of the City of Palo Alto parcels anyways, but we do understand that the 11
Commission might not feel comfortable exempting the entire single-family homes, so we have – 12
such as included some other alternatives to consider, which is removing the replacement of 13
existing windows from – oh, sorry – from the – so other alternatives to consider is removing the 14
replacement of existing windows from the applicability section or – and/or apply size threshold 15
for new or replacement windows so that there is some flexibility and you can sort of balance 16
the need for bird safe as well as for homeowners' budget for complying with these new 17
regulations. And in addition to that, staff is recommending removing the 300-foot buffer from 18
the bird-sensitive area just to make sure that the requirements are consistently applied. Next, 19
please. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
And finally, the last recommendation from staff is removing the requirements of accreditation 2
and years of experience from the alternative compliance section. We just find that the 3
accreditation mentioned in the draft does not really exist outside of Canada at this point, so it's 4
going to be very difficult, and the years of experience may not really contribute at this time to 5
the professional's qualifications while it unnecessarily shrinks the number of candidates for the 6
pool of candidates. So that will make it very difficult for homeowners or applicants. So we're 7
recommending that removal. Next, please. 8
9
So after receiving the Commission's recommendation on the draft ordinance tonight, staff will 10
take the draft ordinance to the City Council for adoption, and hopefully that will be next year – 11
early next year. Next, please. 12
13
And that concludes the staff presentation and open for any questions you may have. 14
15
Chair Akin: Thank you, Ms. Cha. It's before the commissioners, so once again, we'll do left to 16
right. Any clarifying questions? Commissioner Templeton? 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: No, thank you. 2
3
Chair Akin: Vice Chair Chang? 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: Hi. I had a question under Bird-Friendly Design Requirements, so Packet Page 6
112. So it talks – it's (2)(A). So it's Within the Bird Sensitive Area, in addition to the 7
requirements of (d)(1), no more than 10 percent of an elevation of any structure or building 8
shall be untreated glazing. And so I saw that in some of the other cities they talk about facade 9
versus elevation. What does an elevation actually mean? Because there are – for example – like 10
is it everything like on, say, the east side of a house or is it just like I have this funny thing in my 11
house where it's 2 stories, part of it's above a garage, and so there's this tiny, little kind of 12
hallway piece and there is an elevation there that is by itself. There's nothing else that is of 13
equal depth. So what is – what do we mean by elevation versus a facade? 14
15
Kelly Cha: So we actually added an elevation definition because we're using elevation. It's 16
basically when you are thinking about maybe the previous project, they – I don't know if they 17
had shown elevation drawing, but it's basically 2 dimensional drawing of a side of the building. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
So usually you generally get 4 elevations for a building, but sometimes it's more because they 1
may have… 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: If it were a hexagonal building, then it would have 6 or whatever. But it's 4
every – it's flattened down from that view. 5
6
Kelly Cha: Yes. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: Okay, so it's not just walking about a – like if some part of it's recessed, it's 9
not just talking about the recessed section. Thank you for that clarification. That was it. 10
11
Chair Akin: So as a former geometry nerd, I would have said orthographic projection rendered 12
in 2-D, but – Commissioner Ji. 13
14
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. My question is regarding the feedback from the ARB. Ms. 15
Cha, I noticed that you mentioned that in the staff presentation, but I don't think I saw it in the 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
staff report. So I was wondering if you'd talk a little bit more about that and how that intersects 1
without recommendation. 2
3
Kelly Cha: So ARB – sorry. We just included a link to the staff report. Basically, ARB was – we 4
conducted 2 study sessions. One of them was very conceptual and then the second one was 5
there we actually asked specific question about applicability. So we wanted to make sure that 6
we minimized the impact of the small project – small-scale projects like single-family home. So 7
at that time, we were asking whether it would make sense for us to actually have major 8
remodel or substantial remodel included or whether we want to use the bird-sensitive area 9
definition to include a lot more complicated definition. Initially when we brought the bird-10
sensitive area in the beginning to – the first meeting to the Planning Commission, we had a map 11
of – showing the area from parks and streams – all of the streams and parks and buffer – 300-12
foot buffer from those natural elements. So those were something that we have asked them to 13
kind of give us direction. And so basically they wanted us to use the 24-square-foot-size 14
threshold, so we initially brought the draft ordinance to the Planning Commission with that 15
threshold. And right now the draft does not show as part of the applicability because it was 16
asked to be removed, but we actually – as per Commission instruction last time, we added 24 17
square foot threshold down in the design standards section instead. So it sort of shifted a little 18
bit, but it is basically the applicability was the main discussion point for ARB just to make sure 19
that we don't increase the burden on single-family homes and other smaller-scale projects. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Ji: Okay, thank you. That's all for now. 2
3
Chair Akin: Commissioner James? 4
5
Commissioner James: Oh, I have so many questions. I'm quite serious. It's a little hard for me to 6
kind of know where to begin, and it's not for lack of caring very deeply about conservation and 7
the environment. It really has more to do with another feeling I have about regulations and 8
over-regulation and overreach of regulation. But let me just sort of pose one observation. You 9
listed other – no, you don't want me to do this. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: Well, I just wanted to suggest… 12
13
Commissioner James: Question. 14
15
Jennifer Armer: …that we keep it to questions at this point since we do have… 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner James: I understand. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: …public comment. Just wanted to keep focused. 4
5
Commissioner James: Well then I can – maybe mine are better second-round questions. Yes, I'll 6
do that. 7
8
Chair Akin: All right. Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Hechtman. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: I think our fourth time that we've seen this, and I looked for this but I 11
couldn't find it. Do we have a study or data that shows an increase in bird strikes in proximity to 12
waterways, particularly creeks? Is that something that's been in one of our packets and I 13
couldn't find it? 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: We haven't included that study. We have – we might already talked about in one of 1
the ARB packets because that's when we described the San Francisco example. In San Francisco, 2
when they developed back in 2011 or earlier than that because it was adopted then, they've 3
actually studied national research. They looked into the national research and they found that – 4
I think it was meter – something meter. I wasn't sure – I don't remember whether it was 200 5
meters or 100 meter, but they found that that distance – and they convert it into feet, 6
obviously. And so that's why they used 300 feet as their buffer from the creeks, water bodies, 7
and as well as some parks and open space. But we don't have that particular study linked in any 8
of the staff reports. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: So sorry, just to clarify, that was a study by the City and County of 11
San Francisco supporting their 2011 ordinance? 12
13
Jennifer Armer: And it was reviewing larger national studies not specific to the Bay Area or Palo 14
Alto. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: That's correct. So they looked into a lot of research done on bird collision and found 1
out that particular distance was appropriate for them, so that's how they kind of applied and 2
that's how we found out about the 300-foot buffer. 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Can I piggyback on your question real quick? 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Please. Yes. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: All birds? 11
12
Kelly Cha: I wouldn't be able to answer that question at this point, but there might have been 13
different types – most of the studies are actually focused on East Coast, so I'm not sure at this 14
moment. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: It will vary based on different types of birds. 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: It would vary very much based on different types of birds. I just want 3
to make sure that's in our transcript. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. 4
5
Chair Akin: Anything else, Commissioner Hechtman? 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: No, that's the only clarifying question. Thanks. 8
9
Chair Akin: All right. Commissioner Peterson, do you have a clarifying question? 10
11
Commissioner Peterson: Yes, I do, Chair. So the question I have for you, staff, is I want to better 12
understand the division between what is residential, what is commercial, and then let's use the 13
example of the Palo Alto headquarters building because that's a tall building. When do you – 14
and let's imagine that's designated as a commercial building – when do you trigger the changing 15
of the windows for the entire building into bird-safe windows? And then, the last piece I'm 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
asking is I'm not fully sure on the height requirement because are we walking about high-flying 1
birds like geese that are flying into buildings? So they would fly into the top floors of the Palo 2
Alto building? So maybe clarify what is commercial, when do you trigger commercial 3
reconstruction, and then at what height are we not concerned about birds flying into the 4
building anymore? 5
6
Kelly Cha: So the first part, commercial – well, it depends on what the draft ordinance actually 7
end up with. Right now, the draft has applicability basically saying that any replacement or new 8
windows introduced or installed, they would have to actually comply with the requirements. So 9
if that gets adopted, then the – any non-residential buildings – or residential buildings actually – 10
that replace existing windows, they would have to comply. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: I can jump in… 13
14
Kelly Cha: Yes. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: …and speak to the commercial versus residential. That distinction and the 1
components that have different rules for the different uses is actually more in line – or the 2
source of that has to do with city policy rather than frequency of bird strikes. This is a balancing 3
of the City's different priorities for environmental, supporting housing, for example, the 4
exemption for our affordable housing projects, and supporting retail, that it is common. We 5
have – I believe we've seen in other cases that for the lower part of a retail project that that 6
area, because it is used for display, that that is not obscured with this type of glazing. And so 7
that's an exception not necessarily because there is less chance of birds striking that window 8
but because it is a balancing of the different priorities that the City has and a recognition of the 9
needs of the retailers. So that is the source of that distinction. Does not necessarily have to be 10
what the recommendation is. 11
12
Commissioner Peterson: And then, are we concerned about geese flying into the top floors of 13
the Palo Alto headquarters? 14
15
Kelly Cha: I don't think we have any particular species that we're concerned about. We're kind 16
of talking about birds in general. So – and in terms of the height regulations, we initially actually 17
brought a draft ordinance that included a high thresholds, but we had received sort of a 18
direction to make it simpler. So in – it just became this particular one without any particular 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
height thresholds at this point. I would definitely like to minimize the discussion to the ones 1
that we have brought in, but that is something that the Commission can discuss tonight if that is 2
something the Commission would like to discuss. 3
4
Commissioner Peterson: Okay, so just to clarify, so we're not talking about, say, the second 5
floor to the eighth floor. We're talking from – everything from second floor up till however high 6
a building gets. Correct? 7
8
Kelly Cha: For retail, buildings, yes. For – yes, commercial buildings with retail, then that'll be 9
anything above second story. For residential and non-retail buildings, they would have to look 10
at the entire facade or elevation. 11
12
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. 13
14
Chair Akin: All right. I have no clarifying questions, but I hear there are a few more from my 15
fellow commissioners, so Vice Chair Chang? 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: I have one that I forgot to ask about. It's regarding the applicability section of 1
the current ordinance. So this is regarding – my recollection is that when we – my recollection is 2
that we weren't trying to necessarily affect the installed base of windows when we – the last 3
time this was at the PTC. So right now it says when a permit is otherwise required, the projects 4
shall comply with the bird-friendly design requirements, but – this is on Packet Page 112. So 5
when any window is required, is a permit required? 6
7
Jennifer Armer: Correct. Yes. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. So I think that that might be – that might not have been our intent last 10
time, but I think that's just an important clarifying question. 11
12
Chair Akin: All right, everybody catch that? That was a significant… 13
14
Jennifer Armer: So that would be Item 3 under applicability, that any new or replacement 15
fenestration, maybe that was not intended to be part of this when you're, say, somebody is 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
playing baseball and breaks a window, would that one window need to then be replaced with 1
something that is compliant? 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: Right because I think that we had extended the applicability at some point to 4
all permanent projects. At least at the time when I did it personally – I can only speak for myself 5
– it was not realizing that every single replacement window requires a permit. So simply saying 6
permanent projects mean every single window that's ever replaced, and that might not have 7
been the intent. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: That is correct. And so narrowing it down to one and two might be an area for 10
discussion. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: And I have a question… 13
14
Chair Akin: I was just about to ask if you had something to ask. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. Sorry about that. So in addition to the directives that 1
we've received from Council for the City that you were mentioning to reduce bird strikes, we 2
also have other competing goals that the City has like replace your crappy, horrible, old, leaky 3
windows with something energy efficient. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: These are in competition, right? Yes, for those of you not in the 8
room. 9
10
Jennifer Armer: That is correct as well as, as previously mentioned, supporting retail businesses 11
with display, that competes, potentially, with some of these [inaudible 180:08]. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Well, we can talk to this – talk about this after public comment, but 14
thank you very much for the clarifying answer. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Commissioner Ji. 1
2
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. I had a quick question about Section 6 on Packet Page 114 3
about the ordinances shall not apply to any project deemed complete. So if you have a project 4
that's like 99 percent complete with all their windows in and then this becomes effective, 5
would it – yes. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: So deemed complete actually has to do with the planning permit stage. 8
9
Commissioner Ji: Okay, perfect. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: So it would not be construction. If it's going to construction, it will have been 12
deemed complete, and they would not need to comply. 13
14
Commissioner Ji: Okay, that is great to hear. Thank you. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Yes, the application is deemed complete rather than the project. Any further 1
clarifying questions from the Commission? I see no others, so it's time for public comment. I 2
know we have at least 3 groups, so we're going to reduce the time limit to 10 minutes per 3
group. I hope that's workable for everyone. That'll give us 30 minutes at most for the group 4
presentations, and we have a number of people who might want to speak individually. So we 5
should expect a fair amount of comment on this. We'll leave the individual comment limit at 3 6
minutes. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: And through the Chair, if I may, just a clarification because I know we do have 9
some people in the room who haven't been to Planning Commission or public hearings before, 10
to clarify that this time is an opportunity for the public to provide comments on the project. 11
They can bring up questions that they have that the Commission could then ask staff to respond 12
to, but it's not an opportunity for dialogue at this point, just an opportunity for them to share 13
their thoughts, concerns, and any questions that they would like the Planning Commission to 14
look into further. Thank you. 15
16
Chair Akin: Thank you for explaining that. It's good for those of us who have not lived through 17
many of these hearings already. All right, Mr. Tavera. Do we have some public commenters? 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Yes, through the Chair, as you mentioned, we have 3 group speakers, and I 2
have, at the moment, 6 individual speakers. And I just wanted to make a clerking 3
announcement for the group speakers. I can't simultaneously show the clock on the screen 4
when I'm presenting your screen as well – your presentation – so I will l have a timer on my 5
phone and I'll show it here and then I will announce when it's – your time's over. But with that 6
being said, I'm going to invite Daniel H., representing a group of 9, to come up first, and I have 7
your presentation ready. Yes. 8
9
PUBLIC COMMENTS 10
Daniel H.: I have a handout. These are the dots for each one of you, so play around with them. I 11
wouldn't eat them; they're PVC. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: And one more note before he speaks. We have Commissioner Peterson online, 14
and we do need to request that he turn on his video if he is going to be participating in this 15
item. Thank you. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Daniel H.: Let me know when we're ready. 1
2
Samuel Tavera: Yes, we're ready. 3
4
Daniel H.: Oh, okay. Let's go. Let's slide ahead. So Daniel Hansen here on behalf of the 5
Edgewood Neighborhood Alliance. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. In general, we agree 6
with the staff's recommendation to exclude and exempt residential properties or, at minimum, 7
treat all residential properties the same. We can go to the next one. 8
9
So at the outset, this is not about hating birds. I'm actually a big fan of birds. I grew up around 10
duck ponds. My first word was duck. I'm an engineer. I'm a pilot. I love all things that fly. We 11
have Bewick wrens, black phoebes. We have barn swallows in the yard; they're awesome birds. 12
I'm a big bird fan actually. But they don't hit our windows. We've lived in our house 24 years. 13
We've had one bird strike. It was a sparrow. It gathered itself and flew away. My neighbor lived 14
in their house 30 years, also on the creek; one bird strike. So we're asking ourselves what 15
problem are we trying to solve here? We assume this is about bird conservation. This isn't 16
about just window dressing. And there are no bird studies in Palo Alto for collisions with 17
buildings be it residential, commercial. Sunnyvale, by the way – stop right there – no data and 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
no regulation. They said we're going to do guidelines, and they invited the environmental 1
groups to come back with data and studies, and so far they haven't. So that's a rational 2
approach. There's one published study in the Bay Area on bird collisions. It's the California 3
Academy of Sciences Building 2013. As everybody knows, that building's 3 stories, all glass, 4
living roof, and if you're going to build a building that kills birds, that's how you do it. Living 5
roof, all glass. The researchers there looked at it. It's a five-year study. They said to justify the 6
burden of mitigate – bird-safe mitigation, you need to know 4 things: What species, what's the 7
collision propensity, what's the conservation status, and what's the building circumstance. Not 8
all birds collide with windows. Number of studies on this. Birds live on a spectrum. On one end 9
are high colliders; they call those supercolliders. These have a high propensity to hit. On the 10
other end of the spectrum, you have low propensity; they call those superavoiders. The height 11
of supercolliders are generally hummingbirds. Superavoiders are ducks, geese, upland game 12
birds, black birds, birds we see every day. So you need to know what the species are. The 13
recommendation, by the way, on that Cal Academy study was focused on pane size. They have 14
big panes, they said reduce the panes, and they also said lower the external blind – the shades 15
that roll down. They have these roll-down shades. Roll them about halfway down; collision risk 16
now becomes manageable. Didn't reduce it completely. 17
18
So when it comes to Palo Alto, we need to know which birds fly here, what's their collision 19
propensity, what's the conservation status, and what's the building circumstances. For the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
building circumstance, you need to know pane size, reflectivity of the glass, vegetation, lighting, 1
number of circumstances, including birdfeeders when it comes to houses. Studies show that 2
birdfeeders increase the risk by 2x – of collision. 3
4
The burden on homeowners is substantial here. As the staff has reported, the ARB reported the 5
glass – bird-safe glass is not commercially available especially if we need to cover 90 percent of 6
the glass opening. You're talking about windows, doors, skylights, portholes, every fenestration 7
– 90 percent coverage. The alternatives are permanent screens, permanent shades. By the way, 8
the ordinance does say permanent. These are unattractive, block visibility, they're not practical. 9
They could block egress in a fire or an emergency. The alternative plastic dots – you have one 10
there. They're also unattractive, block visibility, they're difficult to apply, and they're 11
environmentally a mess, and we'll go over that in a second. Basically, homeowners need clear, 12
unobstructed windows to see what's going on in the yard. You need to see out. Who's on the 13
porch. In our case on Edgewood, we've got a creek behind us. We got encampments. People 14
hop the fence. Clear, unobstructed windows is important for homes. It's different for 15
commercial buildings, right? For them, windows matter for light. 16
17
So basically, the increased cost and the reduction of market value that comes from this 18
ordinance just isn't justified in the absence of studies – local studies. More restrictions mean 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
slower housing development also; that was one of ARB's – Architectural Review Board's issues. 1
It's going to slow housing development, and this leads to exempting residential properties until 2
data is available. Consistent with staff recommendation, consistent with the Architectural 3
Review Board recommendation, consistent with Mountain View, a number of cities have done 4
this. Next slide. 5
6
So as we look, here are some pictures of what these screens look like. These are permanent 7
screens, not just insect screens. So that's what it requires. Continue on. There they are. Pretty 8
ugly. You cannot see out them. Next one. These are – next slide. These are shades. On the left is 9
a hurricane shade. On the right, these are permanent shades. Next slide. You can see the 10
visibility block and the unattractiveness of these. Next slide. Next one. 11
12
Oh there we go; plastic dots. So there you go. There's a lot of waste with these dots. Very 13
difficult to apply. They don't always peel off. It's a real pain in the neck. And the next one, 14
plastic films. These come in 2 parts. You peel them in half. One half goes in the landfill; the 15
other half you have to keep wet in order to put it on the window. It's difficult to apply. Clumsy. 16
Next one. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Plastics are basically bad policy. The dots are made from polyvinyl chloride. Films are made 1
from polyethylene, polyethylene terephthalate (PET). These are produced with PFAS chemicals. 2
They degrade into microplastics. They're on the outside of the window, so those microplastics 3
are going right into the environment. There's a short lifespan on these things; 3 to 6 years. Then 4
they go into the landfill, and they do it all again. There's CEQA issues potentially here, and the 5
policy should be to reduce plastic consumption, not increase it. Next slide. 6
7
So at minimum, you should treat all residential properties the same. There are no studies of 8
birds striking buildings within 300 feet of streams. I haven't seen it, and I've read all kinds of 9
stuff. There is one study that deals with 100 meters; it dealt with, I think it was a Yale 10
researcher looked at how far birds live within a particular area. It looked at 4 birds; 2 in a 11
pasture; 2 in a forest. They said generally those particular 4 birds live about 100 meters; it's 12
where they go. Nothing to do with bird collisions. We live in an urban forest as we all know. All 13
the homes and yards are effectively the same. My backyard has plants, grass, trees just like all 14
of yours. It's no different. So imposing the higher cost and reduction of market value on a few 15
residents just because we live near a creek is unfair we think. Yale researchers, by the way, that 16
study these types of ordinances, they recommend against distinguishing bird-safe areas – bird-17
sensitive areas because birds fly basically – they fly in urban and suburban air space. Next slide. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
There are some confusing elements to this ordinance. How is 40 percent measured. Is it per 1
window? Per facade? Can a homeowner cover the little windows and leave the big ones open? 2
The source of the 40 percent is an HVAC requirement? That doesn't make any sense. There was 3
very limited outreach by the staff on this ordinance. We didn't get notice about it. Notice 4
should go out to people who live within 300 feet of a creek if that is going to be part of this, and 5
there should be a community meeting as well. Next slide. 6
7
Guidelines is an option. Makes sense. Excuse me – consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. The 8
plan says to develop guidelines. It doesn't say regulations, and guidelines are non-mandatory. 9
And it's also consistent with what Sunnyvale and San Jose have done. Next one. 10
11
If you are going to do an ordinance, the model to follow is San Francisco, Richmond, Alameda, 12
Berkeley. Basically, these ordinances exclude residential homes unless they are tall and have a 13
lot of glass. But the important part is if it does apply, the bird-safe requirements apply to large 14
glass panels 24 square feet or more. This is consistent with the California Academy Building 15
study. And in this way, it gives homeowners a choice. So I have a choice if I want to build an all-16
glass house or not. Next slide. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
A note about Cupertino first. Cupertino is an outlier. It was a patchwork of areas. It's confusing. 1
It does exclude residential homes within certain specific areas. There was no analysis. There is 2
no data. Next one. 3
4
San Francisco Creek. It's not a natural creek from our perspective. There's a lot of trash, human 5
waste. It's concrete lined and concrete banks, concrete bridges, and so forth. Next slide. 6
7
All right, we got some – here's some pictures. We can just quickly skip through these. I guess 8
we're out of time. I will note on this one, the picture on the left right there was taken two days 9
ago. That's a brand new encampment. 10
11
12
Samuel Tavera: [Inaudible 194:00], this concludes your time. 13
14
Daniel H.: Thank you. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Hansen. 1
2
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is – one second. Our next speaker is Julianne Wang. 3
4
Julianne W.: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Julianne Wang, and I serve as a co-chair 5
of the Environment Action Committee at the Santa Clara Valley Bird Alliance. Today I'd like to 6
talk about a simple question: Are visual cues effective for preventing bird collisions? On this 7
slide, you see 2 examples. The window on the left is from the Meta Campus in Menlo Park, and 8
the one on the right is from Sunnyvale City Hall. Both use bird-friendly frit patterns – lines in 9
Sunnyvale and dots at Meta. Frit refers to ceramic patterns baked into the glass. These patterns 10
are proven to significantly reduce bird strikes while remaining comfortable and visual pleasing 11
for building occupants. Yet you can see – you can hardly see them from the inside. Next slide, 12
please. 13
14
The next photo shows an office building in Mountain View. Much of it used transparent glass, 15
but some areas include frit and made glass visible to birds. The building is not located in what 16
we typically consider high-risk bird collision zone. Still, a study conducted by H. T. Harvey from 17
October 2020 to April 2022 form clear patterns of collisions. Next slide. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
On these pictures, the red dots show locations of bird collisions, and the blue dots mark where 2
the dead birds were found. The yellow area highlights where bird-friendly treatment was 3
applied. As you can see, collisions were extremely rare in the treated areas. The data also 4
shows that most collisions happen at lower elevations, though some birds struck glass as high 5
as 4 stories. Among the victims was a yellow warbler, a species of special concern. Next slide, 6
please. 7
8
These slides present findings from a bird collision study in Romania. Researchers observed glass 9
bus shelters and compared clean glass, dusty glass, and shelters marked with graffiti. Their 10
conclusion was surprisingly clear: Graffiti reduced bird collisions. Next slide, please. 11
12
Here's a summary of the results. Clean glass caused most collisions. Dusty glass caused fewer. 13
Adding graffiti reduced collisions even further, and shelters with both graffiti and dust had very 14
few collisions at all. Their conclusion was surprisingly clear: Graffiti reduced bird collisions. This 15
photo shows – next slide, please. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
This photo shows a bus shelter at a Stanford Research Park. The design was originally required 1
by the Palo Alto ARB in 2023 at Santa Clara Valley Bird Alliance's request. Stanford retrofit the 2
shelter with bird-friendly film. And – next slide, please. 3
4
The photo shows a bus shelter at a Stanford research park. The design was originally – I'm sorry 5
– and this photo's for 2 bus shelter on Google campus. The red shelter in Mountain View use 6
vertical line patterns, and the other one in Sunnyvale incorporates frit with graceful leaf wave 7
design, which is beautiful. 8
9
So the takeaway is simple: Providing clear visual clues will help birds recognize glass as a 10
barrier, which is highly effective. Thoughtful designs saves birds and supports healthier 11
ecosystems. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: Thank you, Ms. Wang. 14
15
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Shani K. representing a group of four. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Mr. Tavera, can you clarify, is that a group of 4 people including Ms. 1
Kleinhaus or 4 plus her? 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Five total, yes. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. Just… 6
7
Shani K.: Thank you. My name is Shani Kleinhaus. I'm an environment advocate for the Santa 8
Clara Valley Bird Alliance. I'm a resident of Palo Alto, and I'm on the Parks and Rec Commission, 9
and I do not speak for the Parks and Rec Commission at all. I was thinking I should tell you a 10
little bit about myself and my background. I have a PhD in ecology from the University of 11
California at Davis, and I've worked internationally as an ecological consultant. For the past 15 12
years, I've focused on advancing science-based environment policy and habitat protection in 13
Santa Clara County. I currently advise both public agencies and a lot of the local private 14
organizations on urban ecology, bird-friendly design, dark sky practices, and more. The 15
advocacy work and the consulting work involved collaborations with Meta, Intuit, Google, 16
Apple, Microsoft, and others on projects on campuses and they've had to do with ecology by 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
diversity and responsible development and more. I even talked to the group who was here 1
before and gave them some advice on how to enhance their campus or their residential project. 2
3
So I want to focus on a few things that came up here but generally about bird safe-, bird 4
collisions first. Across North America, birds are disappearing; 30 billion birds have disappeared 5
in the last 50 years, and that means populations are shrinking, migratory birds are at greater 6
risk than residential birds. Some of them are more at risk than others; obviously not all birds are 7
made the same way, like people have mentioned here. By the way, at Apple, a goose did collide 8
to a building. The old campus, not the new one. They don't release information from the new 9
one. There is a very large group of municipalities, sometimes even states, that adopt bird-safe 10
collisions at different levels. New York has a very strong ordinance that applies to housing. 11
Cupertino applies to housing. Some only apply to non-residential. Some apply only to 12
commercial but not mixed use. Some apply to mixed use. So there's a large variety and I think 13
staff did a wonderful job of actually try to figure all of that out, and I really thank them for that. 14
15
But a lot of tech companies implemented, and not only in our area, also in other areas but even 16
overseas. So I think the idea that we need to protect our environment, and it's part of our 17
urban environment, is important. And I understand a lot of the issues came here. I'm a 18
homeowner in Palo Alto, and I don't want to have extreme expenses. But I thought I'll show this 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
video because you can see in the video – I don't know if it will show well – but you can see the 1
migration patterns. You can see the birds that are flying. And this is spring migration but you 2
can see the birds that are flying along the cost and you can see how they get to our area. And 3
those birds are at risk and it's all these dots that you see there, it's different species of different 4
colors and so on, but it's not insignificant. And I think we need to consider our natural world 5
when we think about how do we run our lives. And you can see it dark, there have even more 6
birds migrating and the light attracts them and we have a lot of issues of collisions because of 7
lighting. This is why those things are connected. 8
9
If you can go and show the rest of – so this website is a website by a large group of 10
organizations that put together and created this Bird Collision Prevention Alliance, and there is 11
a lot of information here that people can use at home to create and that consultants can use 12
and that anyone who's trying to retrofit their home can – or other construction projects – can 13
use. And they're not all expensive. And if you scroll down a little bit, you can show solutions. So 14
you can see, if you click on the one with the dots, some of them are really beautiful and some 15
of them area really obnoxious and unpleasant to watch, but you can choose. There is a lot of 16
options out there. And if you scroll down, there are a lot of options. There's a lot of different 17
solutions, and there's pictures of them and you can see which ones. And some of them come 18
with cost estimate. So it's not – it doesn't have to be prohibitive is what I'm trying to say – or 19
ugly. Can be but doesn't have to be. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
So when we talk about single-family homes, I would say that we need to mostly – I think that 2
there is some misunderstandings that we're asked about and that staff brought up because 3
there are issues with any window that needs to be replaced should not require retrofitting. But 4
if you're going to retrofit in a way that creates a hazard – and there are definitions of the hazard 5
– then yes, it should be. And the reason is because it would encourage people not to create 6
hazards in the first place. So if you are going to create hazard, then please retrofit it or don't 7
create it. We have options in design not to create those things, and I think that's important to 8
remember. And so the focus on hazards is important. 9
10
I have here what Mountain View requires in North Bayshore, which I thought was actually 11
pretty reasonable. All new construction, building additions, and building alterations are 12
required to include bird-friendly designs. They're not like anyone needs to replace their existing 13
window with a similar window, but if a new addition or something creates a hazard, they need 14
to address it. And I think we need to keep that. So I wouldn't say completely remove the 15
requirement but figure out how to apply this requirement to hazardous situations and not 16
everything. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
In terms of – what else did I have here? I have to remember all the questions and 1
recommendations that you had. Related to the 300-foot buffer, I think it's important. The 2
creeks are the lifeline for all our biodiversity in the area. The creeks and the bay. And if we don't 3
look at the creeks as part of the ecosystem, then that's where the collisions do occur. Not every 4
home and I understand – and yes, birds may be somewhere that doesn't have a creek too, but 5
this is where they migrate. And I think Dashiell is going to talk about that in a little bit. The 6
water attract birds, and again, not all birds are the same. That yellow bird that you saw there is 7
often near creeks. Alternative compliance – there are questions about that. I think that it is a 8
problem the way it's defined, and I think we need to think about ornithologists with some 9
experience but doesn't have to be 5 years or accreditation because it doesn't exist. 10
11
About heights of buildings. In our area, most of the collisions occur at lower elevations, but the 12
science tells us that because there is more low buildings and very tall buildings. And the very 13
tall buildings, if they're lit at night, that's where the collisions occur en masse. Now the East 14
Coast has different migration patterns. Ours is more diffuse. Over there you have much bigger 15
streams of birds, so you can have thousand birds dying with one building one night. We 16
generally don't get that. And the people don't even know. And the reason they don't know is 17
because when a bird hits a window and it dies, it may not die right next to the window, but it 18
also may actually be picked up by a cat or a crow or a gull or something else. There was a 19
building I was asked to look at once. They told me "Oh, there's so much bird poop there. Can 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
you help us figure out what's going on?" What was going on was foxes that had stations. Not 1
birds were pooping there; it was foxes, and they had stations because the building was so 2
deadly. I have seen buildings that were retrofitted with film around here, and they are very 3
effective. There's some in Mountain View; there's some in Sunnyvale; there's some in – on the 4
Google campuses. And the film doesn't peel right away. It lasts a long time. And if you think 5
about a lot of the films that are applied to reflect or to help address loss of heat, they're also 6
films. So I'm just thinking need to solve some of this but not as an all exemption for all 7
residential homes. And I do think that we need to think about places that are most dangerous 8
to birds. That's why San Francisco did 2 things: They have location hazards, which is near water 9
essentially or parks, and they have – okay – and they have element hazards, which are those 10
safety issues when you build something that is dangerous. Thank you. 11
12
Chair Akin: Thank you, Ms. Kleinhaus. 13
14
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Jeffrey S. 15
16
Jeffrey S.: Good evening, Commissioners. The Architectural Review Board discussed the bird-17
friendly ordinance in a meeting in February '24, and there was an exchange among a few ARB 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
members during the meeting that, in retrospect, has some irony I think. So here's what we 1
learned in the exchange. One of the board members, an architect, lives on Palo Alo Avenue. 2
Across the street from his 2-story home is San Francisquito Creek, which is bordered by a lot of 3
trees. So in other words, there are no structures opposite his home on the other side of Palo 4
Alto Avenue. So the architect noted that because he has seen a lot of birds in his yard over the 5
years, he recommends that residential buildings near trees and other natural areas should be 6
covered by the ordinance. So under questioning for other members of the board, the architect 7
said that in the last 20 years he has had very few, if any, bird strikes. The stated reason? His 8
windows had mullions separating large panes of glass, each pane typically measuring about 3 9
feet by 5 feet. No frit. No non-reflective surfaces, he said, no film, no dots, no blinds, no insect 10
screens. So I'm wondering how this ARB member, architect, is going to react when he finds out 11
that his windows, with mullions separating 15 square foot panes of untreated glass, are not 12
sufficient, despite his experience, for bird protection in Palo Alto. So if one of his clients in a 13
bird-sensitive area wants to install windows like the ones on his home, the client will need to 14
submit a report from a qualified biologist or a qualified ornithologist based on a study. But as 15
we know, there are no bird window collision studies in Palo Alto. So in effect, the ordinance 16
would relieve the City from its burden of proof and would shift it to residents in bird-sensitive 17
areas, and I think that represents an extraordinary burden. Thank you. 18
19
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Shore. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Ed F. followed by Charlie W. 2
3
Ed F.: Thanks. Ed Feitzinger, 24-year Palo Alto resident. My daughter has a master's – got her 4
master's degree of Stanford in public policy, and I asked her about how do you decide what 5
good regulation is, and she said, "Well, actually, to get my master's degree, I had to take a class 6
called Cost-Benefit Analysis, and I had to show that a good regulation was one that – where the 7
societal impact of the regulation exceeded the cost." And I have a little thing here on the cost 8
side because I did a little research. I tried to understand this, and this just seems like a relatively 9
burdensome regulation. And you've heard from staff, the American Bird Conservatory states 10
using bird-friendly glass when constructing a new home can be extremely expensive, potentially 11
making going this route cost prohibitive. And then we heard staff comments on this that you 12
guys have all read. So they said well, what are the benefits? And I'd tell you to take a quick look 13
at what the benefits would be, and depending on who you listen to, 365 to 998 million birds get 14
killed by windows in the U.S. And so, naturally, Palo Alto would want to do its share. Fifty-six 15
percent of those birds are killed by buildings 4 to 11 stories tall, only 1 percent above that, and 16
– but that makes up about 15 percent of building stock. So 80 percent of the problem is 17
buildings 4 to 11 stories tall. There are not that many of them in Palo Alto. We're talking about 18
residential restrictions here, which is 20 percent of the problem. Again, 80-20. Where are we 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
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focusing our time? We're focusing our time on 20. Burden falls on the residents, which was 1
discussed before. Anecdotes but my house has an elevation with 40 percent window coverage. 2
I did that work 25 years ago. One bird kill 25 years. I live about 600 feet from a creek. I'm a 3
member of Palo Alto Hills Country Club, Alexis Drive. If you've ever been up there, new fitness 4
center. About a thousand square foot glass wall with very large panels overlooking the pool 5
deck. So if you can – and it's on Arastradero – right next to Arastradero Preserve. And what you 6
guys are describing is what you want to be a bird-sensitive area, you'd imagine that's a killing 7
machine. So I asked the general manager how many – and the birds would fall and drop in the 8
pool area, and so during the day, kids would get upset. So I said, "How many – can you go ask 9
staff how many birds have been killed in the last year?" And he said, "Well we don't know of 10
any but we'll go ask." He went and asked, and 1 bird was killed 13 months ago. So the bird-11
sensitive areas, again, the data points point towards – maybe the foxes are coming and picking 12
them up at night; I don't know. But people during the day are sitting out there with birds flying 13
around in a bird-sensitive area in a 2-story building with a thousand square foot glass wall, birds 14
are not hitting it. So I kind of go back to where's the – what's the issue and what are we trying 15
to do? So 1 dead bird per annum and saying now you have to remediate that wall or if you want 16
to do other construction in that area, now you have to put a lot of expense into commercial 17
glass, what's the benefit? So I see 2 logical options here – how much time do I got left? Eleven 18
seconds. Do a study and figure out what's happening in Palo Alto. This building should be a 19
killing machine. There should be dead birds all over the place if this was a problem. Do a study 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
here. Palo Alto Hills Golf Club will help you with that study from their side and do a more 1
immediate study. And then… 2
3
Samuel Tavera: Thank you for your time. 4
5
Ed F.: Or just say don't do it. Stop. Thank you. 6
7
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Charlie W. followed by Dashiell L. 8
9
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Feitzinger. 10
11
Charlie Weidanz: Good evening, Chair and commissioners. Charlie Weidanz, Palo Alto Chamber 12
of Commerce. And thank you for the opportunity to share some feedback that we have on the 13
Bird-Friendly Design Ordinance. In October, the Chamber coordinated a webinar outreach 14
meeting that was designed to give City staff – and thank you, staff, for being part of that 15
opportunity – to engage with our business owners regarding the ordinance, which at the time 16
most businesses were unaware of and did not understand the details of. We heard concerns 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
shared by the business owners during the discussion that the ordinance is too broad, not 1
gauged to local conditions, and too restrictive, as it does not account for the different building 2
structures in the City. Understanding the ordinance is intended to minimize bird collisions, 3
more data is needed to understand the scope of the problem. We are not aware of a study that 4
has been done to prove the issue and we suggest the study should conduct a study to 5
understand the scale of the issue and where reports of bird collisions are located and the 6
assessment of local collision frequency to justify the cost of the requirements before adopting 7
such a costly ordinance. 8
9
In addition, we heard that the bird-friendly glass significantly alters the experience building 10
users and makes the buildings less attractive, especially in challenging real estate market time 11
without clear evidence that it would deliver meaningful local benefit. While we share the value 12
of reducing bird collisions, this ordinance fails to balance other goals such as overall benefit, 13
occupant experience, and construction cost. We also ask that you allow practical alternatives, 14
rather imposing blanket restrictions across all non-residential buildings. So to summarize, what 15
we heard was take some time to conduct a study to understand the scale of the issue, the 16
ordinance is restrictive and does not account for all the different buildings structures of the 17
City, and it would be very costly to these – to put these features on the buildings. Thank you. 18
19
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Weidanz. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Dashiell L. Dashiell, you may now speak. 2
3
Dashiell Leeds: Thank you. Hello, commissioners. My name is Dashiell Leeds. I'm the 4
conservation coordinator for the Sierra Club Loma Prieta Chapter. I just want to start by reading 5
from the American Bird Conservancy paper, "Factors Influencing Risks of Collisions for Birds 6
with Buildings." It's a great compilation of scientific research. The papers states, "The habitat 7
immediately surrounding buildings bears directly on collision likelihood. Vegetation and other 8
resources draw birds and so do the reflections. Aquatic habitats like stream banks, lakesides, 9
and marshes are especially productive and birds are attracted to areas with water both during 10
the day and as they end migration stages at night." And then there's a subsequent paragraph 11
that lists about a dozen studies indicating that reflectivity of vegetation and particularly birds' 12
ability to see vegetation through glass also increases the likelihood of collisions. So I think 13
there's some pretty significant precedent which would allow us to claim that birds are more 14
likely to collide with windows and buildings in natural areas like streams and creeks, so I do 15
think that there's some merit here to keeping the 300-foot provision or definition of a bird-16
sensitive area. Cupertino also defines their bird-sensitive area using a very similar 300-foot 17
standard and then I believe you all have in paper handout that list, a series of scientific studies 18
that basically were trying to identify if you want to protect habitat what sort of buffer are you 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
looking for. And the studies find that there's about a 300-foot buffer within natural areas, 1
vegetated buffers specifically. 2
3
So looking at this, I think it's pretty reasonable to define bird-sensitive areas by the 300-foot 4
standard. I also really like Shani's recommendation to consider applying standards when a new 5
hazardous architectural feature has been created. As she explained, I think this could 6
incentivize people to build less parallel panes of glass and free-standing glass corners or highly 7
reflective glass through which foliage can be seen through or reflected in. And again, just to go 8
back to the Cupertino example here, Cupertino exempts residential development in R1 zoning 9
districts but only those outside of the bird-sensitive area. So I think a reasonable standard 10
based on this precedent could be to still apply the standards within the bird-sensitive area and 11
then for other homes if they create a hazardous architecture as defined. Thanks for much for 12
your time and consideration and we hope you recommend the ordinance for adoption. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Leeds. 15
16
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Marton B. followed by Kai S. Marton, you may now speak. 17
18
Marton Bernstein: You can hear me? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Samuel Tavera: Yes, we can hear you. 1
2
Marton Bernstein: Okay. Thank you. I'm Marton Bernstein. My first general comment is one 3
that we've heard so far about the definition of a problem. My general comment is, is the bird 4
population in Palo Alto Area decreasing, is it stable, or is it increasing? So what is the true 5
hazard? And now I have actually just some 7 specific comments if the ordinance continues to be 6
developed. First of all, Number 2 is right now, the proposed is that the ADUs are exempt. Please 7
add wording that JADUs are exempt, just to be clear that all forms of ADUs are exempt. It just 8
says only ADU but it should be JADU. Third comment is the idea for fritted glass. By the way, 9
that fritted glass is about 2½ times the cost of regular glass, so that can be a huge burden. Let's 10
clarify the wording of the 40 percent exterior elevation. So that should be 40 percent of glass 11
area. So for example, if there's a pair of French doors 6 feet wide by 8 foot tall, that's 48 square 12
feet. But only the glass area should be counted as a glazing area, not the impervious solid wood 13
framing of the stiles and rails. So that's number 7. 14
15
Another comment is – so I saw something about if glass pane is less than 24 square feet, then 16
that's just – it doesn't even have to be accounted for. You can clarify that. Let's exempt any 17
basement glazing. So glass that's in a light well. We'll assume a bird's not going to swoop down 18
into a light well and then hit against the glass, so it's – from that elevation, let's exempt 19
basement glazing. And the – if there's an Eichler building, Eichler house/residence with lots of – 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
many large pieces of glass bigger than 20 square feet, if 1 gets broken, let's clarify that that 1
glass that gets replaced does not need to be meeting any definition of bird-friendly glazing. 2
Let's see. The – those are, I think, my comments. And – oh, again, so if the – if it is implemented 3
and dots or lines and patterns are – can those be of any color? And those are my notes for this 4
presentation. So thanks for entertaining the thoughts. Thank you. Bye-bye. 5
6
Chair Akin: Nice to hear from you, Mr. Bernstein. 7
8
Samuel Tavera: Our next speaker is Kai S. Kai, you may now speak. 9
10
Kai Stockwell: Good evening, commissioners and staff. My name is Kai Stockwell with Sand Hill 11
Property Company. We are a multi-family and commercial real estate developer and property 12
owner based here in Palo Alto. Sand Hill Property supports the staff recommendation to 13
remove the 300-foot buffer from the definition of the bird-sensitive areas. That buffer is highly 14
restrictive, has not been clearly supported by expert analysis, and would unfairly burden 15
properties where there is no avian habitat in need of protection. Not all creeks function as bird 16
habitat. For example, our avian consultant reviewed Matadero Creek and found no habitat 17
conditions that would warrant elevated bird safety measures. Bird safety requirements also 18
carry significant costs for both residential and commercial property owners and should only 19
apply where there is a demonstrated risk to birds. No study has shown that creeks between 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Foothill Expressway and Highway 101 represent significant avian habitat. On the contrary, these 1
are predominantly urban areas and bird-safe requirements would have little to no impact on 2
bird safety while placing unnecessary burdens on property owners. If the City does choose to 3
include a creek buffer, then it is important that only the portion of a parcel within that buffer 4
be subject to this regulation. Applying the requirement to entire parcels, especially larger 5
parcels, would unnecessarily add costs to existing properties and new projects and unfairly 6
impact larger properties. The proposed standards are currently very restrictive and should be 7
reviewed by qualified experts for both need and cost before being incorporated into the 8
ordinance. Thank you for your time and the opportunity to provide comments this evening. 9
10
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Stockwell. 11
12
Samuel Tavera: And through the Chair, I have no other requests to speak and no other public 13
comment cards. 14
15
Chair Akin: Thank you, Mr. Tavera. All right. We are back to the Commission for discussion. So 16
Commissioner Templeton, would you like to start us off? 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: What an honor it has been tonight to have sat on... 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: [Inaudible 226:15]. 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. I feel like you could share the glory here but that's okay. I'll take 3
my turn. Wow. What amazing comments from the public. I appreciate everybody coming in and 4
sharing their opinions. And I think also, I appreciate what staff has done, the listening that you 5
have done to improve the proposed ordinance. My high-level takeaway here is this is a well-6
intentioned effort that is not ready for prime time. So we have heard from the businesses that 7
this is painful to them. We have heard from the homeowners this is painful to them. We have 8
heard from the environmentalists that this is painful to them. And I'm not sure that we're all in 9
complete disagreement. When I listened to the comments, I heard Ms. Kleinhaus say that these 10
tech companies were implementing the bird-safe protections voluntarily. That's what you said 11
but nevertheless, that's what I heard and I could've misunderstood. So however, the other 12
things that I noticed in the presentation from Juliana? 13
14
Female: Junyun. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Junyun was these were also a plethora of non-residential examples, 17
right? Bus stops, commercial buildings. They weren't retail buildings, necessarily. We didn't see 18
a lot of exploration of how that would be played out. We saw some things that really don't 19
apply to what's being proposed here for us to look at tonight. But we did see a lot of agreement 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that we need more information. If we're going to go forward and try and implement something, 1
perhaps we should learn from our neighbors over at the massive research institution next door 2
that we need data to base it on. So that's my high-level takeaway. I – some of the things that I 3
heard that I will just point out, gave me a little bit of pause, was vegetation increases the 4
likelihood of collision. That may be true. I do no want to get rid of vegetation. The ecosystem 5
buffer, I'm trying to understand – while I understand that the 300-foot buffer is important to 6
the location where activity is happening, it wasn't clear what the windows have to do with that 7
because we don't have any data about what the die-off that's happening here. I've also heard a 8
lot of people that are concerned about the bird die-off blame cats and I believe it. I believe that 9
there are cats that eat birds but I don't want to get rid of my cats. 10
11
So what I'm trying to get at is one can come to any number of conclusions with the level of data 12
that we have but they may not be the right conclusions and it may not be action is yet 13
warranted. We need to get more information, clearer direction. So I'm going to say, at the 14
absolute minimum, this should not be applying to residential properties at all. I think, at the 15
absolute minimum, we have to have a lot more information before requiring our businesses to 16
invest by regulation, though there are many that we would like to provide guidelines for, as per 17
direction from Council. All right. That's it for now. Thank you. 18
19
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Vice Chair Chang. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: I think I come at this from a little bit of a different perspective, which is staff 2
spent a lot of time working on this at the direction of Council and I think that while there – I 3
think the staff has done a pretty good job narrowing it down to some areas of concern. And we 4
– I think there's a lot of confusion in the public comment because I doubt that most people are 5
super experienced at reading ordinances and understanding applicability and everything else, 6
not to mention that I myself asked a question very early on about the interpretation of an 7
elevation. And so to start with, I just wanted to ask – so overall, my perspective is that I think 8
that we should – because this is the third time this has come to the Commission and staff has 9
put in the work that they're going to put in, I think we should just move it on to Council. And we 10
can make it better, we can answer staff's questions, and then move it on to Council. And if 11
Council decides that this is not ready for prime time, then I think let's just have Council decide 12
that rather than add to the churn. So that's my perspective because it has come here so many 13
times. I do have specific questions because as I heard the... 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 231:47]. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. As I heard people comment, I don't think that things are – I don't think 18
that the public's understanding is necessarily accurate in terms of what was being asked of 19
specifically homeowners. So I do thank everybody for putting in the effort and the time to come 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
here because it is a lot of work to come here as a private citizen and I really appreciate that and 1
I appreciate the careful scrutiny. So the first question I have is, is it that – I heard something 2
about only 10 percent of your windows can be untreated. Is that true, Ms. Cha? 3
4
Kelly Cha: So I think as written, it says no more than 10 percent needs to be untreated, which 5
means... 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Ten percent of the elevation of the... 8
9
Kelly Cha: Of the elevation. 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: So if you had a huge wall of 1,000 square feet, you could have 100 square 12
feet of windows, is what you're saying. 13
14
Kelly Cha: Right. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: That entire vertical surface. 17
18
Kelly Cha: Yes. That's correct. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 1
2
Kelly Cha: So it's not just taking consideration of glazing. It's taking the entire wall... 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: Right. 5
6
Kelly Cha: ...basically. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: And I mean, most all windows in my house, actually all operable windows, 9
have a bug screen. Those are also the windows used for egress, like for fire code. Does a bug 10
screen count as something that meets the... 11
12
Kelly Cha: Yes. 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: ...that makes it bird safe? Okay. So I just wanted to clarify for the public that's 15
listening that – I mean, I went through my house and I said – looked at the elevations in my 16
normal house. I don't have to worry about any of my windows because I don't have more than 17
10 percent that are not covered – more than 10 percent of elevation that is not covered by 18
either a wall or a bug screen. So that's... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 233:34]. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: I don't live in an Eichler, so that – I did hear the public comment and I actually 3
had that same thought of, "Oh, my gosh, if a baseball goes through an Eichler window, do they 4
have to deal with this?" And we want those Eichlers to change – to your point, Commissioner 5
Templeton, we want those Eichlers to change from single-paned glass that's very energy 6
inefficient. We want to do anything that we can for those homeowners to change to really 7
expensive double-paned windows. And so I did think that one of – and I do think it was an 8
unintended consequence last time that we really want to exempt replacement windows. If 9
we're not entirely exempting residential, I think we just want to – we should be really limiting 10
this to new construction. So that's something that I do think is a bit of a no-brainer, even based 11
on our conversation here at the PTC last time it was here. But I do recognize we have at least 3 12
commissioners who were not here for that last conversation. And then I had another question – 13
a point of clarification. Is it true that you can't install multiple 15-square-foot panels next to 14
each other, based on this ordinance? 15
16
Kelly Cha: You can, definitely. We have – so for – if – depending on what the outcome of the 17
draft ordinance tonight and what the Council adopts but they can definitely install them. It's 18
just that they may have to actually provide some insect screens or either treatments. [Inaudible 19
235:22]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: And it's also subject to the area – the percent area... 2
3
Kelly Cha: Yes. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: ...of the elevation. 6
7
Kelly Cha: [Inaudible 235:27]. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: So it really just depends. 10
11
Kelly Cha: Depends on how much of glazing you have... 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: Right. 14
15
Kelly Cha: ...based on your elevation. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: And if we exempted the current installed base of windows, it just wouldn't be 18
a problem for anybody who is replacing a broken window, changing to double-paned windows. 19
That would be one way to solve that... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: That's... 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: ...as well. 4
5
Kelly Cha: ...yes. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. So as a start, I think we should make some changes to the ordinance to 8
exempt replacement windows. That would be my perspective. However, our ordinance also 9
very clearly defines bird hazards, which is where birds can see through. And I think that that is a 10
condition that has been researched and is particularly dangerous. And perhaps that is the one 11
situation that should not be grandfathered in. So that's – that would be my thought. But in 12
terms of new construction of residential homes, I look at what Cupertino did and they actually 13
had – and staff did a wonderful job looking at other surrounding cities' ordinances as well as 14
talking to the cities to understand how much of a problem and burden did this present to those 15
– to residents in those cities. And it sounds like in Cupertino, where they do have the 300-feet 16
buffer zone in a riparian area, that actually, there's not an issue for – because the issue is that 17
for residential homes in general, we don't have walls of windows in an urban area. So I think 18
that we're actually really close to something that is not overly burdensome. I also think that 19
with respect to the open space, I do think that we want to keep our wild areas wild and we 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
want to be respectful to – and particularly in our open spaces, even if it's a residential 1
development. So I would – I think that we may not want to exempt those areas in the Baylands 2
and in the Foothills. So that's where I will leave it for my first round of comments. 3
4
Chair Akin: Thank you. Quick follow-up regarding insect screens. Are interior insect screens 5
effective or only exterior screens? 6
7
Kelly Cha: Exterior is recommended by bird experts for exterior features like insect screens as 8
well as the films as well for those non-permanent markers. 9
10
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner Ji. 11
12
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. What I've heard tonight is that everyone – no one wants 13
bird deaths. I feel like that's a commonly agreed thing that I've heard from all parties, except 14
cats. But for all the humans that are participating in this meeting, we have all of us suggested 15
that we don't want more bird deaths. And I think that that's the intention of the ordinance as 16
drafted. But reading through the staff report, I was a bit concerned about the onerous impacts 17
on residential. And I think that one of the things that I appreciate about some of the group 18
public comment was that there seemed to be a lot of comments about commercial and I think, 19
for my first round on a high level, I am supportive of having more strict bird-safe glass 20
requirements for commercial buildings. 21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
The other thing that stood out to me is that the way that this is described is bird-friendly 2
design. I'll tell you right now, I'm not a designer of any kind. In fact, we've had an architectural 3
review board go through this and I would've liked to see, I think, a little bit more – I think staff 4
did an amazing job going through what other cities have done but just having a similar amount 5
of detail for what the – our own architectural review board had described would be helpful. I do 6
agree with Vice Chair Chang that I think that I'm generally in support of keeping wild areas wild, 7
such as what we've discussed with the creek ordinance with outside of Foothill, outside of 101, 8
Baylands, those kinds of areas. And I am really sensitive to what staff said about keeping the 9
ordinances simple. I think that if we expect people to be able to follow it, they shouldn't have to 10
go through and read this. Even us who read lots of ordinances were still asking questions at this 11
point about the ordinance. And so I'd like to see the final version, if this continues to Council, in 12
a form that is pretty easy to understand. That's all I'll leave for my first round. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner James. 15
16
Commissioner James: Oh. I have so many questions and problems with this, to be honest. 17
There's – I feel like there's just a lot of guesswork going on and a lot of extrapolating from 18
national figures about how many bird deaths there are. And these are serious problems but I 19
think we're just fitting that and then spreading this assumption across every building that's in 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the City. And even the wonderful data visualization that Ms. Kleinhaus shared with us was also 1
in a documentary that was heavily – the experts there were heavily weighted to Cornell, which 2
is one of the leading places for bird research. And it was largely set in Texas, right? But one of 3
the lines from that documentary, which is quite excellent, is, "Not every building, not every 4
house." This is so, so, so specific. It's – I'm not saying it's not a problem but I think we can't just 5
assume that every house and every building poses the same risk. And I think we – in the 6
absence of the evidence, we're making some crazy assumptions here. I'm sorry. But – and this is 7
very uncomfortable for me. I worked at National Geographic for 26 years, right? Conservation, 8
environmental. But I find myself aligning on this issue with – doesn't seem like my tribe in a 9
way. 10
11
So – but I do think – I'll echo some of the things that Commissioner Ji said and we've heard from 12
the community. Regulations need to be easy to understand and easy to comply with and widely 13
seen as valuable to the community. I don't see that here. But I think that's a – we're getting 14
down the line on that. I haven't seen – and it – and I may have missed it. I mean, I'm coming in 15
midway on this. But I haven't seen evidence that every building, every house poses an equal 16
risk. I just find that very hard to believe. 17
18
I also think that there's all these built-in biases. I don't want to ask architects to do field biology 19
and I don't want to ask biologists to design buildings. They have a built-in bias that they're going 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to – it is quite natural if you are advocating for the birds that you're going to advocate for – 1
throw everything at it that could possibly work. And I get that. That's the role. That is that role. 2
But our role is to balance those things out, to find the balance point between what is the 3
information we have, what is the risk we understand, how can we mitigate it? But I think it's got 4
to be very, very narrowly focused. One of the community members pointed out something that 5
I concluded too. In the first urging of the Council, they did refer to it as guidelines. And I think 6
we could probably go a long way with guidelines. And I think, as you pointed out, some of the 7
tech companies are doing this on their own initiative. I think there's a lot to be said for focusing 8
on education and resources that might not have us creating a pretty large financial burden 9
without evidence. I just – I'm sorry. I just have a hard time seeing it. So I could go on forever but 10
I'm going to stop right there. 11
12
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Hechtman. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: So I'm going to break my comments into 2 parts. I'll keep this first 15
round high level. And I'll start by just mentioning that, as I did before, this is the fourth time I 16
think this has come to us. August 14 and 28 of last year. I was at those. October 30 of last year 17
is really when there was a lot of action that, as described in the staff report, led to staff being 18
given direction to make a lot of the changes that they appear to have faithfully made and then 19
commented on their thoughts on those changes. I was not at that October 30th meeting, so that 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
means a majority of us were not at that meeting. I have, however, read through those minutes; 1
after I read the staff report, I wanted to see the flavor coming out of that. And particularly, I 2
looked through all of those meetings for data, for studies, because I thought, "Well, maybe" – 3
because I didn't remember any from last August and I thought, "Oh, maybe that was some 4
information presented in October." And so that was my due diligence. So I want to start by 5
saying that this is a law we're contemplating that is going to apply citywide, that whatever it is, 6
it's going to apply citywide, maybe to some kinds of structures more than others, but it's a 7
citywide ordinance. And our role, I think, as Planning commissioners, is to give voice to the 8
desires of our citizens here in Palo Alto. 9
10
And when we're talking about this ordinance because there's a cost involved, I'm really wanting 11
to hear from our property-owning constituents who are going to bear the burden of a 12
regulation that applies to their property. Not so much for tenants. It'll be the owners. And so 13
what I'm observing through all these 4 meetings is I'm not hearing any property owners saying, 14
"Please do this. Please do this to me." Right? I agree with Commissioner Ji, nobody wants to kill 15
a bird. We love nature, right? That is, I think, pretty uniform throughout the City, but nobody is 16
asking for this. And so it makes me feel like we are contemplating imposing something upon 17
them because we know better. And I have some issues with that. And while this did come out 18
of a City Council directive, this hasn't gone back to them since they made that directive. And I'm 19
interested to see what they will think when nobody is asking for this. Sorry. None of the 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
property owners are asking for this. And the people who are recommending it and advocating 1
for it are, as you'd expect, the environmental advocacy groups because it's entirely within their 2
mission and it makes total sense that they would do that. But that concerns me, that we're not 3
hearing voices in support of this ordinance from the people who will be affected by it. 4
5
The second thing that concerns me is, again, the lack of data. I did go through this exercise. 6
There was a reference, I think, in the August 28 staff report last year to a Yale study and the link 7
to that, so I clicked on that and I got to the Yale study, which was really mostly about what kind 8
of legislation some cities across the U.S. had done. But it did link to a study called, "Bird-9
Building Collisions in the U.S." by multiple authors. Yes. Okay. I might be stealing some thunder 10
from our Chair here but great minds and all that. Anyways. A 2014 study. I It's nationwide but 11
these are a couple of the conclusions that drew my attention. I just want to share them. 10 12
years ago this was written. "In the most extensive building collision study today, per building 13
mortality rates at individual residences were higher in rural than urban areas and at residences 14
with bird feeders than those without feeders." So I'm guilty. And that's from a 2012 study that 15
they cite. "However, compared with larger buildings in urban areas, for example, skyscrapers 16
and low-rise buildings on office and university campuses, detached residences appear to cause 17
lower overall mortality rates." And this part seemed – it was counter-intuitive but I'm just going 18
to read it, "And relatively high amounts of mortality during non-migratory periods." So anyway. 19
So that's the data I could find and it's not necessarily localized. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
I don't think, incidentally, that we need a study of Palo Alto's birds but I think something in this 2
general region. I mean, I think there are differences between a bird population here and what 3
happens up in Fort Bragg, perhaps, and certainly what happens on the East Coast. And so I do 4
think something more localized, some information, is necessary. And in the absence of that 5
information, really what I have is my anecdotal experience. Like one of our speakers, I live in an 6
Eichler, so the back of my house is 12 feet of glass along the dining room, cornering up to 21 7
feet of glass for the living room with some narrow pillars in between. I've been there over 30 8
years. I believe I have had 2 bird kills with those windows. Both of those were doves. And so 9
that, for example, is interesting to me. There was some discussion among the commissioners 10
earlier about different birds behave differently. And so that seems to be a problem. But there's 11
only 2 in over 30 years. So if you had asked me, in hindsight, knowing now that I could've 12
prevented those 2 deaths by spending say $1,000 per bird 30 years ago to replace windows, 13
would I have done it? I'm going to be honest. I'm going to say no, that it's not worth $1,000 to 14
me to save 1 bird. And this really gets us to that cost-benefit analysis issue, which I'm really 15
going to talk about more later. 16
17
But I will tell you that one thing that we did in reaction to that – and we have had other bird 18
strikes. I mean, I've been in the room. I hear the strike. I turn. And most often, the bird just flies 19
away. Most often, it's a dove. I don't know why. But it just flies away. And there has been an 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
occasion or 2 where they landed on the ground and maybe walked in circles for a couple 1
minutes, shook it off, and then flew away. It's possible they went somewhere to die but I care 2
about birds and so I watched them and they weren't wobbling. They weren't flying drunk. But 3
one thing we did when we noticed this is we got these little magnets that you put on the 4
windows. And we have a couple, it's just a bird. It's a pretty little bird with a magnet. And then 5
we put a magnet on the inside glass. And so it breaks up that plane. And that has actually 6
worked pretty well. We get fewer bird strikes. We've got 7 windows there. I think we only have 7
3 of those but it's actually had some effect. Just something that simple, inexpensive, and not 8
required by City of Palo Alto regulation. So I'm going to stop there and I'll talk about my specific 9
thoughts about where the regulation should apply in Round 2. Thanks. 10
11
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner Hecthman. Commissioner Peterson, do you have 12
comments? 13
14
Commissioner Peterson: I do. Thank you, Chair. So I also don't feel like I can support this the 15
way it's currently written. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending this to City Council and having 16
City Council look back and say, "So this is what you sent over." For me, there's several reasons. 17
One is, just as I opened up with, the height. Birds don't fly into the tops of buildings because, 18
well, as we heard here, geese and ducks don't fly into buildings and that's what flies at higher 19
elevations. So starting with that, the way the ordinance is currently done, it's missing – it has 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
gaps. It's overly covering. We've heard people talk about basement windows. There's been a lot 1
of different edge scenarios that have been brought up where people say, "Well, it shouldn't 2
apply," and so I agree with that. And so that's why I think the way the ordinance is currently 3
written, it's a little bit too much. It's too simplified. This is a more complicated scenario but I 4
also don't think it needs to get to the level of detail where we heard the testimony that said, 5
"Well, if it's a corner window and you can look through the window and you can see the trees 6
on the other side of the window, that needs to have dots on it." Okay. But are we going to put – 7
write legislation that every corner window that you can see through across the corner has to be 8
bird-friendly glass? 9
10
So then coming from that, I think we haven't heard anything in this entire time that sounds like 11
good science. There's been good beginnings of science here. There's been good reports that say 12
maybe we should study this more. But I don't see anything here that's risen to the level that we 13
can stand on and actually make city-level ordinances and feel comfortable that we're making 14
good decisions. And so when you don't have good science, what do you do? You ask your 15
neighbor. So I think, like when we've asked about traffic calming, we send a survey out. "Ninety 16
percent of the neighborhood said we should have traffic calming." Well, I'd like to see a survey 17
come back, as it was recommended earlier. I'd like to see 90 percent of the City, of some 18
sample, say, "We would like to put bird-friendly glass in." And if we have that shown to us as 19
evidence, then I think we have something we can stand on and say, "Okay." But then coming 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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from that, one of the things is people don't like birds flying in their windows. You feel bad. I 1
think we've heard it too. I feel bad if a bird flies into my window. And what I'm hearing is, when 2
birds fly into windows, people fix it because they don't like birds flying in their windows 3
because it makes them feel bad, so they put stickers on their windows and the birds stop flying 4
into their windows. 5
6
So there's a little bit of a self-correction here already that if there's a problem glass window 7
that just happens to be that scenario that we don't have the studies that define it but the 8
people sitting there have the birds flying into the windows, they solve the problem themselves. 9
There's lots of products out there to solve this. And then I'm also one of the people here, I 10
speak for the trees, so to speak. It's forest but I like to speak for the birds too. But I live in an 11
apartment that's literally at tree level and I just realized we have a 24-square-foot window and 12
we have a bird feeder and a hummingbird feeder and we have never had a bird strike in the 13
entire 10 years we've been here. And then listening to all this, I realized, "Why haven't we?" But 14
we haven't. Apparently, birds don't fly into our windows. As much as I would love our landlord 15
to replace all of our windows with dual pane, I can't stand on this ordinance to push that 16
forward. So that's my opinion. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. I really only have 1 round of comments but I suspect we 19
may have a little more discussion to come. So with great reservation, really, I support 20
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eliminating the requirements for R1. Commissioner Hechtman referred to a certain paper, 1
which I also have, by Scott Loss and others. And my reasoning is a little different. What's 2
interesting about this for me is that the paper makes it clear to me that R1s are really a 3
significant hazard and that's not because of their design but because there are so many of 4
them. Now unfortunately, what that means is if we're going to make a dent in the bird deaths 5
due to R1s, we have to have a policy that scales well to cover very large numbers of buildings. 6
And given what I'm reading from the staff report, I don't think we have that yet. We don't have 7
glass that's cheap enough. We don't have plastic-based solutions that we're environmentally 8
happy enough with. So what I would like to see in this respect is for this issue to come back in a 9
few years and I think it'll play out differently. I also support removing the 300-foot buffer from 10
the bird-sensitive area. And again, it's for a slightly different reason. I think the requirements 11
should be consistent throughout the urban area. And that's not just for management of the 12
ordinance. I'm now going to extrapolate anecdote into data here, so be warned. The biggest 13
piece of undivided glass in my house is 18 square feet, so it's well below the 24 that we've 14
discussed in the past. I still had 3 bird strikes this year, with at least 2 fatalities. They were all 15
during fall migration season. 16
17
Female: Which species? 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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Chair Akin: I don't recall. And amusingly enough, this is pretty much exactly what the paper by 1
Scott Loss and others estimate you'd expect for an R1. My house is 4,000 feet from the nearest 2
creek. It's also 700 feet from the nearest park. So I believe, based on very little data, that we 3
ought to be applying the standards uniformly. Now there's a moral hazard here, in that by 4
stretching it out over a large enough area, you're going to find more people who object to it but 5
I think that has to be handled by making the case with a little more information than we have. 6
And finally, the easy one, it sounds like the accreditation requirements just aren't workable 7
right now. So we should see if we can't find a better definition for accreditation for analysts for 8
this. So in sum, I'm inclined to support the staff's recommendation. You can easily talk me into 9
something with a little more complexity but not much. So that's where I stand. I would like to 10
have a second round because I know several of you have more comments. And since I've been 11
told that I'm favoring one direction a little too much... 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Oh, no, no, no. Yes. I had to wait through all 7 of you, so... 14
15
Chair Akin: Well, on the other hand, you can have the last word. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Oh, that's really cute. I bet I can do that anyway, though, if you're 18
really nice to me. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: All right. In the interest of consistency, then, we will once again start with 1
Commissioner Templeton. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: I really appreciate your openness to feedback, though. Thank you, 4
Chair Akin. All right. So during the comments, everybody gave great comments. I really – I – this 5
is the kind of Planning Commission I live for. What a good discussion we're having. Thank you, 6
everybody. One thing that was coming to mind is that we – in addition to not really having data 7
about what kinds of things are happening or where they're happening, we don't really 8
understand the scope. And that's one thing that I think really confuses the issue because we do 9
know bird strikes are happening but we don't know if they're happening at an unusual rate in 10
our city versus other cities or at an unacceptable rate for the health of the general population, 11
right? We just don't know. And one of the things I was thinking about is what if we were to 12
compare bird strike deaths to deaths from West Nile Virus in the area? Because we know we've 13
definitely have taken community action to address West Nile deaths, right? We have the 14
fumigation or whatever you call it, the treatment with the chemicals of the areas. 15
16
But locally, in terms of residential properties, we rely on code enforcement to eliminate 17
hazardous – hazards like standing water. In other words, somebody has to call the City, 18
complain that there's a tire full of water in your yard, and then somebody might do something 19
about it. So if you put the scope of harm in perspective, that costs the homeowner $0 but it's 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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not even enough for something proactive if somebody has to call and complain in order for 1
action to be taken against the homeowner and that action is almost always at no cost. Now we 2
compare that to this situation, which is potentially very expensive and could be applicable to 3
anyone if we passed it in the current form. It starts to seem extremely outsized. And that's not 4
to say it's not important to figure this out because I agree with everybody's comments. 5
6
And then I just want to highlight Vice Chair Chang's. We do want to figure out a way to do this 7
in a way that is compatible with our City's values and with our homeowners' values and with 8
our business owners' values but that doesn't put an unnecessary burden. And especially 9
[inaudible 264:37] at a time like this when everybody's under a financial strain of some sort of 10
or another, especially our local businesses, it feels like an overstretch. And I was just thinking 11
about the dates. You said the last time we were discussing this was August and October of 12
2024, which somebody might be able to make the connections there. But anyway. So I think, as 13
well-intentioned as we all are, as much as we want to move the City forward, we have to think 14
about what's the way we can move the City forward that's effective, that's going pass Council, 15
and that's going to make us take a step in the right direction for the longer-term plan that Chair 16
Akin was talking about. So my suggestion is going back to starting with guidelines. We can do a 17
lot more with guidelines and have less pushback and more higher likelihood of getting it past 18
Council. So can we start there and maybe then include a recommendation for Council to send it 19
back to PTC in 2 years or something like that? So just wanted to throw that out there. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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1
Keeping wild areas wild. Several people mentioned that. I just want to go on the record saying 2
that I have no problem with that. I think it's great to keep wild areas wild. I think it's also 3
important to think about the people that are living there, that we have allowed to build a house 4
there. And how do we do it in a way that, in your words, makes it better? How do we make it 5
better that we're intruding in this space? Because in the end, we're all intruding in this space, 6
right? So how do we make it better? And then I love your idea about exempting replacement 7
windows. And then to Commissioner Hechtman's question and Chair Akin's about the 8
incidences being higher during migratory periods – was that the quote that you were talking 9
about? I was wondering if it has something to do with the migratory birds might not be as 10
territorial as the other birds and then maybe the ones that live here fight more over the 11
reflections. I don't know. 12
13
Chair Akin: Yes. I think there are many reasons. The one that instantly comes back to my mind 14
was that a lot of the migratory birds that die are – it's speculated are those that were hatched 15
this year... 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. Didn't... 18
19
Chair Akin: ...so... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: ...have... 2
3
Chair Akin: ...they... 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: ...the experience. 6
7
Chair Akin: So – right. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Oh, interesting. Well, anyway, I just want to thank you again for a 10
good discussion. I'm – unless you guys come up with some more interesting quotes for me to 11
respond to, that might be it for now but – at least this round. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Akin: Vice Chair Chang. 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: So let me understand correctly. I – it – just want to make sure I understand. 16
So you're suggesting that we not forward an ordinance on to Council and then just adjust 17
guidelines? Is that what you were saying? Okay. 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: Which complies with the... 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: ...yes. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: So I don't want to throw away all the work the staff has done because I think 6
they've done a lot of really good work. And we've all talked about the cost and with respect to 7
residential, I think if we exempt replacement windows, I really don't see where the bulk of the 8
cost is coming from because there's always design choices. And if you don't do a bird hazard 9
installation as written – as the ordinance is currently written, there's no cost. So you could 10
always solve things with design for new construction, I guess is what I'm saying. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: For new construction. 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: For new. And we're exempting all existing, so... 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Eichlers are safe. 17
18
Vice Chair Chang: ...Eichlers are safe. Or I mean, I think that's what we were – but that's at least 19
what staff is suggesting, that we exempt – that that's one of the suggestions. So what – I mean, 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
I think the big key here is, when we're building new things, now that we know what causes bird 1
strikes, let's not do those things. And that's something that can easily be solved by design. And 2
the reality is that for most houses that are done in the urban areas, people aren't having glass 3
walls where you can see through the house. That's just the reality, right? Really where this issue 4
presents itself is like on a property that we saw up in Los Trancos maybe last year or the year 5
before, where it was just a fishbowl because there's no neighbors, so they're not worried about 6
people looking into their windows. People in the – in between Foothill and 101 generally don't 7
do that because there's a privacy concern. So I would say that we just – I think that the staff 8
recommendations actually make quite a lot of sense and eliminate the single-family home 9
concerns. But I would say that we shouldn't exempt the single-family homes that are in the 10
Baylands or up in open space. That's what I'm... 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: So not universally applicable. 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: Not universally applicable but universally applicable within the urbanized 15
areas. That's what I would suggest because we saw that issue. I mean, we saw a home with 16
exactly that issue. And frankly, if you're building the gazillion-dollar mansion that it is, you can 17
afford it.. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. But we didn't – that home didn't exist yet. We were – we didn't 1
see it happen, right? This is the one that we made them change before they built it. 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: I can't remember what we did with respect to bird-safe glass on that one. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: I don't think that we had – I don't know that we had a conditional – but that's 8
not relevant anyway. I didn't speak to the third bullet on staff recommendations on alternative 9
compliance and my suggestion would be that we just delete all references to – hold on. I made 10
notes on this. So we can just strike mentions of qualified biologist because we don't know how 11
that biologist should be qualified. And if we just say – it'll just then say ornithologist or wildlife 12
biologist. So if we just strike all mentions of qualified biologists and we also strike the sentence 13
that says, "In addition, the qualified biologist or ornithologist will have at least 5 years of 14
experience, blah-de-blah." If we just strike the experience sentence, then I think we've dealt 15
with that situation. And again, this is for alternative compliance. There's plenty of ways to 16
comply and the average homeowner is going to comply with a screen, is what they're going to 17
do, which they already have, actually. And then again, we've exempted existing construction, so 18
the Eichlers are safe. So I think that would solve most of the problems. So that's it for my – I 19
mean, I just think that the staff recommendations make sense. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: All right. One more thing. And with respect to the guidelines component, we 4
can forward this ordinance on to City Council with our changes – with the staff-recommended 5
changes but also suggest that the PTC thinks that perhaps guidelines might be a way to address 6
this as well. All right. So then – and we leave that... 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: To them. 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: ...leave it to them without throwing away all the staff work and research, 11
which I think was fairly well considered and staff did listen very carefully to the public. 12
13
Chair Akin: Thank you, Vice Chair. Commissioner Ji. 14
15
Commissioner Ji: Thank you, Chair. In general, I am inclined to agree with the Vice Chair about 16
what we should do about the ordinance, in terms explicitly saying that we should just let 17
Council make a decision on this at this point. We can pass along the great work that staff's 18
done. We should fix it up in any way we say. And then also say, "Hey, we may think that 19
guidelines may be appropriate with maybe a 2-year comeback," like Commissioner Templeton 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
said. I think those I'm generally supportive of. I had a quick question for staff about – on Packet 1
Page 112 Section D Subsection 2 about residential and residential portions of mixed-use 2
development. So one building that comes to mind is the Channing House, which is a pretty tall 3
building, which has senior housing as well as assisted living. So is assisted living considered 4
residential or is it considered mixed use or is it considered non-residential use? 5
6
Jennifer Armer: I'll jump in on that and then our attorney, Mr. Yang, may have something to 7
add as well. But my understanding is that the assisted living is not considered a residential use, 8
so it would – these requirements would be based on commercial, whatever commercial 9
requirements would apply to those portions of the building. 10
11
Commissioner Ji: All right. Thank you. 12
13
Albert Yang: So I... 14
15
Commissioner Ji: Oh, yes. 16
17
Albert Yang: ...guess just... 18
19
Commissioner Ji: Go ahead. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Albert Yang: ...to add a little bit of nuance to that, it depends on the specifics of the units that 2
are involved. So there are some circumstances where it would be considered a residential use 3
or where it could be considered a housing unit. 4
5
Commissioner Ji: Thank you. I think my mental model of the Channing House having different 6
types of windows on different floors is a little onerous on the building. I'm just going to put that 7
out there on that. But I think specifically, I'm going to go and talk about some of the suggestions 8
that I would like to make on the ordinance as is. I think on Packet Page 110, I would strike out 9
the section that says, "Areas within 300 feet of the center line of a natural stream." I'm okay 10
with identifying bird-safe areas as the areas west of – east of Highway 101 and west of Foothill 11
Expressway. On Packet Page 112, Section C Subsection 3, I would like to, as the Commission has 12
decided or expressed support for, removing language about replacement. So I would also echo 13
that sentiment. And then I also want to echo the Vice Chair's comment on Subsection E on the 14
alternative compliance. I think we had a – the Commission reacted negatively toward the term, 15
"qualified biologist" for the creekside ordinance and so I would agree again to remove that and 16
just say "ornithologist or wildlife biologist" and also remove the terming for all the years of 17
experience necessary there. But with those changes, I am – and then also for the exemption for 18
R1, I do think I like the Vice Chair's idea about excluding R1 in the urban area. Those are my 19
comments on this. Thank you. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner James. 2
3
Commissioner James: Well, I'm not sure I have much more to add other than what I've already 4
said. It just seems really problematic to me that I think we – I agree with many others that the 5
data, the clear understanding of the problem, that without that, it's just very hard to move 6
forward and I am respectful of the work that's gone into this and I – and particularly comparing 7
other municipalities. But even that, to me, almost suggests – the fact that they're so different 8
suggests that there's still a lot of guessing going on. So I'm not suggesting that there's not a 9
problem. I'm not suggesting that I would never support a solution. I feel like I would be happy 10
to support a solution that I thought clearly identified the problem and how to solve it, even if it 11
was just the biggest known problem and proven solutions. But I'm just having a hard time 12
seeing my way forward with this work right now. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner Hechtman. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: So many chefs stirring this pot. It's going to be interesting to see how 17
it shakes out. So all right. So looking at the specifics of the ordinance and I'm coming at this 18
from a cost-benefit analysis and to badly mangle a pun, really the way I'm thinking of this is, 19
"What's the biggest bang avoidance for the buck?" And so when I look at that, I'm thinking 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
about, "Well, where do the birds mostly fly?" And it's higher than my rooftop. It's up with the 1
trees. I think we had one of the public speakers referencing something about between floors 4 2
and 11 or maybe that was out of the staff report. And so to me, when I look at this ordinance 3
and the desire to start Palo Alto toward a path of better stewardship toward birds, I think 4
maybe that's where we should focus our initial efforts. This is an evolving science. As more 5
data is available, we can come back and look at adding layers. So with that in mind, what I'm 6
looking at is no applicability to single-family homes in what we're calling the urban area. In 7
other words, east of Foothill and outside the Baylands, just period. Doesn't apply to single-8
family homes. I'm a little nervous about using R1 designation because I think there are some 9
single-family homes that are not in R1. So – and similarly, I don't know about other 10
developments that aren't single-family homes that might be located on R1. So I'm really 11
targeting with that comment single-family homes. 12
13
Next, within that urban area, only the portion of the structure that's above 35 feet. And I pulled 14
that number from Berkeley's ordinance, where the City of Berkeley seems to be comfortable 15
with that as where you start to apply the regulation. Most of our buildings as we look forward, 16
it – very few of them will be above 11 stories. We have a couple builder's remedy projects 17
where that's being proposed but mostly our height limits, even with the bonuses you can get in 18
state law, should be within that range. And so I think that's the right place to target to start. In 19
terms of creek adjacency, first of all, it's perplexing to me why the City and County of San 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Francisco would be interested in a study of bird strikes near creeks because, to my knowledge, 1
San Francisco has zero creeks. Zero. Because whatever creeks once existed have long ago been 2
underground channelized. I've been all over that city. I lived there for 5 years and I can't think 3
of a single creek. I actually looked on my map for any kind of blue line. Zero. So I don't know 4
why they would have been studying that. 5
6
But what I'm thinking about is this Planning Commission has sent forward to Council some rules 7
about development in the riparian area. And we have some different rules that we forwarded 8
and I'm not immediately remembering if those have been approved or dealt with by Council 9
and if so, what the result was. But my memory is in the urban area, I think it was either 20 or 10
maybe 25-foot – there was a setback we were talking about, a riparian setback. And then in the 11
Foothills, I think it was – 150 feet is my memory. Except there's that 1 neighborhood where it's 12
30 feet. And in all of those situations, I think there are some exceptions where you can invade 13
that space. You maybe have to make certain findings or whatever. So I think if we're going to 14
worry about bird strikes, it should be consistent with that. We should match those numbers. 15
And again, this won't apply to any residential in the urban area but it could apply to non-16
residential that is creek-adjacent in the urban area. 17
18
But it could also apply, I think, to residential west of Foothill, that if, for example, it's a property 19
with 150-foot setback and they are – they just choose to put their windowed wall at or inside 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that 150 feet through an exception, I think that's an appropriate place to require some bird 1
safety glass. And people who are contemplating that, knowing that, they'll have some flexibility. 2
Maybe they're going to step back and not do that. There's a design choice. But I like having 3
symmetry between the different kinds of riparian-related regulations, and so that would be 4
attractive to me to do that. Let's see. I agree with staff's recommendation regarding the 5
alternative compliance. 6
7
And the other thing I would say is I think there's a real opportunity for the advocacy groups 8
here in Palo Alto that have spoken eloquently and passionately about this for a year and a half. I 9
was thinking, there's some great public outreach and education they could easily do. And here's 10
how that might look. You mail to every single-family home in Palo Alto a magnet, a pretty bird, 11
whatever design you want. It's actually got the name of your organization on it. And you include 12
that with a letter introducing your organization, describing your mission, and telling them, "Just 13
put this on your window and you will actually be taking a step toward addressing this problem." 14
And you can include a donation envelope in there. I would think that an organization could get 15
someone to sponsor that whole exercise and probably by the time you're done with the 16
donations that would come in, it would pay you back and you'd have a real positive effect. And 17
I'd like to see efforts like that. As we're listening to our environmental organizations and 18
partnering with them, it seems like this is an easy step for them to take, without relying on the 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
City to impose these regulations, that could actually have a beneficial effect, if I'm 1
understanding the perspective of these environmental organizations correctly. 2
3
So those are my thoughts. I think in some ways I'm perhaps more limited than some of my 4
commissioners in what I'm looking for in an ordinance that would go forward to Council. I'm a 5
little hesitant with the concept of guidelines. I deal with those a lot in my work and there can be 6
some confusion about those. There can be some city staff members I've dealt with – not in Palo 7
Alto, in other places – who seem to think guidelines have more force than other staff members, 8
and so it's sort of, "Which staff member I get could change how my project looks." So I'm a little 9
nervous about those. I do think it would be appropriate to tee that up for the Council to see if 10
that's really a better approach. And I'd be supportive for this whole thing to start as a guideline 11
targeted toward what Ms. Kleinhaus said, that where you see mass collisions is high-rises with 12
lights on. And so that's where I would like to start our focus. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Akin: Commissioner Peterson. 15
16
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you, Chair. So I heard what the suggestion was by both the Vice 17
Chair and the Chair. From the Chair, I heard that this should be a blanket for the whole region. 18
And from the Vice Chair, I heard that essentially this doesn't apply to existing housing to save 19
the Eichlers because they do have those huge glass areas. And I like the point that the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
ordinance has the provision for – what is it called – the wildlife biologist to write a custom plan 1
for the project, which pretty much that covers any larger project for sure. I think they're all 2
going to take that route, which covers all those little details we're talking about. One thing is I 3
think we should expand that from a wildlife biologist to include environmental engineers, since 4
I think we're talking about the entire umbrella group. And usually, something like this is – 5
you're going to approach an environmental engineering firm, tell them you need a bird study 6
and design requirements for your new structure, and they're going to bring in whoever they 7
have on staff for this. So one is, I think we should expand it with an environmental engineer. 8
9
And then the second one is, I have a question of how does staff now assess these customized 10
studies? I hear Commissioner Templeton saying they need – we need guidelines to be able to 11
assess the study. But I – maybe it's – with the environmental engineering firms, your 12
environmental engineer's willing to sign off on this customized plan for whether it's a single 13
household being constructed, which I've heard houses in Palo Alto are $4M, so I think that 14
that's probably not a huge cost to do a bird study to meet that requirement by the City. But 15
then how does the – does the City accept every single one that's submitted as long as it's signed 16
off by an environmental engineer or wildlife biologist? So that's one question I have. And then 17
following on that is, are bird studies covered by CEQA? Would this be part of the environmental 18
review process? And I think that's a question to staff. It's a little bit late for questions but at 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
what point are we bumping into CEQA requirements where you would – this would be part of 1
CEQA anyways, to have a bird study? So I'll leave it there. 2
3
Chair Akin: Thank you. Would you like to address the CEQA question? 4
5
Jennifer Armer: I'd be happy to respond to that question as well as a little bit of what 6
Commissioner Peterson was getting into in terms of this study for exceptions. To start with 7
CEQA, when we're dealing with a single-family home, for example, that generally is considered 8
exempt, unless there's something very unusual. Say you're getting in an area where you're 9
going to cause problems for an existing creek or protected wildlife area, for example, 10
something on a hillside where you might be causing problems. But in general, it's an exemption 11
for CEQA. So it's not something that involves detailed studies. When we do get to a point where 12
we are doing biological studies for projects, it also is only certain protected species. So a lot of 13
these, for example, the doves that were mentioned earlier are not considered protected 14
species and species of concern. And so it is focused and generally doesn't include many of the 15
small birds that we're talking about here. And so in this instance, most of what we're talking 16
about is unlikely to – unless it's a large campus redevelopment that would be looking at 17
biologists looking at nesting, some other things like that in regards to birds. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
But I also did want to recommend that the use of these exceptions in this additional study be 1
something that's seen as a rare occurrence. Having a study like this added to the building 2
permit process every time, that's additional time, cost, delay, burden, when one of the efforts 3
that we as a City are trying to do is to reduce the burden the government is putting on people 4
who are working to make improvements to their buildings or build new buildings. The cost-5
benefit analysis that we were talking about, right? Finding the right balance, not always 6
depending on custom studies for each case. Thank you. 7
8
Chair Akin: Any further comments before we try and drive this to some kind of conclusion? 9
Commissioner Templeton. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: I'm here for you. I got this. All right. First, just for the record, there's 12
2 comments that were – characterized some things that I said. I definitely am not saying throw 13
away any of the staff work. I'm trying to say make sure that before we make something codified 14
that we really think it through. And also, Commissioner Peterson said that I was trying to make 15
guidelines to assess a study and I don't think I said that, so I just wanted to correct the record 16
on that. The thing I want to impress on my fellow commissioners tonight is let's say we do pass 17
this and we send it to Council and Council votes for it. How do we know if it works? We have no 18
data. We have no starting point. Even if we were able to get an ending point, we couldn't 19
compare them. We have no way to know if this is worth it. And that's what we're hearing from 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
people talking about the cost-benefit analysis is it's really we can't even do that simple step to 1
underscore and support any recommendation we might make. So if we do this, we have to 2
understand, we're being aspirational but we're imposing something very tangible on every 3
property owner in Palo Alto. So if we're going to do that, we have to really think it through. And 4
for me, we haven't met that threshold. 5
6
I'm concerned that this will backfire on our environmental causes if we implement something 7
that's not ready, that doesn't make sense, that we can't justify ever. It's not even now. It's ever. 8
How do we know these are going to have the impact? Right now, it's aspirational. So if we have 9
something aspirational, we should do some of the things that we have done in other 10
circumstances. For example, currently, heat pumps are recommended. They are not currently 11
required. Anybody who wants to replace something that's environmentally bad in their house 12
can voluntarily replace it with the same bad thing if they want to. But we are recommending as 13
a City, "Here's what we think you should do to make our city incrementally better for the 14
environment." And so that's really the case I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to say that the 15
work we've done is not good. But what I'm saying is that we're in a leadership position, we're 16
making a recommendation to Council, and Council is in a position of authority to enact some of 17
these things that could affect people really in real life, very tangibly, so let's take that 18
responsibility seriously in terms of understanding we don't even know if it'll work because we 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
have no data, even from now. All right. That's my plea for you guys. Let's see if we can come 1
together. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Akin: Vice Chair. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: So I thought I would make a stab at a recommendation or at a motion and see 6
where we go from there an see if we can get someplace. So I was going to move the staff 7
recommendation with – so moving the staff recommendation, which includes these 8
modifications to – oh, what are the headers? Sorry. To the exempting... 9
10
Female: [Inaudible 295:15]? 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. Sure. That's a good idea, to put the slides up from the presentation... 13
14
Jennifer Armer: Yes. We can [inaudible 295:25]. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: ...so that we know what the staff recommendation is just because it's a long 17
night. 18
19
Female: [Inaudible 295:31]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. There we go. Okay. So to move the staff recommendation, which 2
includes an exemption for single-family homes but with a modification of not exempting the 3
ones that are east of... 4
5
Chair Akin: Outside the urban area. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: ...outside the urban area. Yes. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 296:00]? 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. And then for the bird-sensitive area to just remove the stream buffer in 12
the urbanized area. And then on the next slide, for the applicability section, I just have a little 13
bit of a – this is where I have a little bit of a more specific, which is just to strike all mentions of 14
qualified biologist, strike all mentions of accreditation, and to strike the sentence that says, "In 15
addition, the qualified biologist or ornithologist shall have at least 5 years of experience in bird-16
friendly building design." So I think that is the staff recommendation but it's just a little bit more 17
specific. So to – so I move the staff recommendation with those changes or tiny modifications. 18
But then also recommend to City Council that they consider the cost-benefit and consider 19
whether an ordinance or guidelines are more appropriate. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: What – can we review what is remaining that affects commercial 2
and retail? 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: I'm going to actually turn that over to staff because staff understand the – is 5
going... 6
7
Female: [Inaudible 297:30]. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: ...to be able to summarize the ordinance much more. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: And we can see if we've got something for that. In addition, one other thing 12
that I had heard from you earlier in the discussion was an interest in removing Item C, the 13
replacement windows requirement... 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 16
17
Jennifer Armer: ...from the applicability section – 3, sorry. Not C, 3. Item 3 under Section... 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: ...C, Applicability. So it would just be new construction and substantial 2
remodels that... 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: Well, but... 5
6
Jennifer Armer: ...would [inaudible 298:080. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: ...we're exempting – yes. Yes. 9
10
Kelly Cha: I think... 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: And that... 13
14
Kelly Cha: ...it... 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: ...replacement also applies to commercial. Correct? 17
18
Kelly Cha: That's correct. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Correct. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 3
4
Kelly Cha: Commercial, just wanted to clarify that – if the Commission wants to consider entire 5
3 or just the – or still keep the bird hazard installation. 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: We want to keep the bird hazard installation. 8
9
Kelly Cha: That's 112. 10
11
Male: Back of Page 112. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: I'm going to need your help. The... 14
15
Jennifer Armer: Okay. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: ...staff seems to understand what I'm saying and so I'm going to need your 18
help. Yes. We're all so tired. I'm hoping that staff can recap this for me. Okay. So – but there is 19
the question on the table about what applies to commercial still. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: So with that change, the commercial buildings wouldn't have to actually worry about 2
the bird-treated glasses for – all of the existing buildings, commercial buildings, wouldn't have 3
to worry about it. It'll be just the newly constructed buildings and structures and if they were to 4
make any substantial remodels according to the definition we have under Title 16. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: And the change being the one you highlighted that's on the screen 7
right now... 8
9
Kelly Cha: Yes. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: ...if we remove that. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: And – but what – the clarification that I think we just heard from the Vice Chair 14
is that she doesn't actually wish to recommend removal of Item 3 in its entirety, just the words 15
"fenestration or" so that it would now be, "any new or replacement bird hazard installations," 16
rather than all windows. 17
18
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Because you – I believe the Vice Chair's recommendation would be that if 1
replacement was proposed of a bird hazard installation, that that should be brought into 2
compliance with this. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: I think... 5
6
Jennifer Armer: From... 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: ...for... 9
10
Jennifer Armer: ...what... 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: ...even... 13
14
Jennifer Armer: ...I've heard, there's... 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Any structure. Commercial, retail, residential. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: However, it... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Even if the house was approved and lived like that for 30 years, if 1
there's a new window replacement, it has to be this bird-safe glass. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: Except that there is an exemption for single-family residential in the urban 4
areas, correct. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: So it would just affect businesses. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: Or single-family residential in the Hillsides or Baylands areas or multi-family 9
residential. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. What's the deal with the single-family? Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, 12
Chair. 13
14
Chair Akin: Just to clarify there, we're referring to any new or replacement bird hazard 15
installations only, not windows in general, not fenestration in general. That's the current state 16
of this edit? 17
18
Kelly Cha: Yes. So if you see the screen. Maybe [inaudible 301:07]... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: [Inaudible 301:07] so we can see [inaudible 301:10]. 1
2
Kelly Cha: ...bigger. So I think what I'm hearing is that we will remove – I think the Commission 3
wants to – or... 4
5
Female: [Inaudible 301:16]. 6
7
Kelly Cha: ...it's in discussion – Vice Chair would like to remove the fenestration or from the 8
third applicability condition. And I think there's some questions about whether that is a final 9
decision for the Commission. 10
11
Chair Akin: Right. Thank you for the clarification. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: What I had written down in my notes was any – to change the order a little 14
bit. Any replacement bird hazard installation or new fenestration or bird hazard installation. I 15
think that's what it is. 16
17
Kelly Cha: So basically, you would like to just remove "replacement of windows" only. 18
19
Female: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: Okay. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: It's not showing. 4
5
Kelly Cha: Let's see. [Inaudible 302:23]. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: I can deal with it. I can deal with that because it's new. So if you're 8
adding some kind of very narrow 30-degree corner window jutting out over your pool... 9
10
Chair Akin: Or... 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: ...you need to do that with the right window. 13
14
Chair Akin: ...more likely a glass railing. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Shh. I'm trying to make it seem really unlikely. But yes. Okay. Can I 17
ask about – are there – I'm just trying to think. Yes. We're all really tired here. So I'm just trying 18
to think of any edge cases on that. But while I noodle on that, can somebody – who – why 19
single-family and not any residential? If you live in a duplex, your windows are magic? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Yes. I think that gets back to what Commissioner Hechtman had pointed out earlier. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. We could do height instead. I don't know if that would be 4
more... 5
6
Chair Akin: So you're suggesting that this apply to residential structures at a height of 35 feet or 7
greater? I have to come up with a different way to phrase it but for any bird hazard installation 8
at a height of 35 feet or greater? Is that what you have in mind? 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: I'm not just applying it to this. I'm trying to understand what the 11
residential exemption was because it was proposed for R1s and [inaudible 304:03] like, 12
"Probably a duplex would be fine or an apartment would be fine." We have to think about... 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: I think... 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: ...height... 17
18
Vice Chair Chang: ...what we... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: ...more. 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: ...need to say is low-density residential or something like that, which is a 3
definition in our code that would include duplexes and... 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: So "high-density residential, screw them"? I mean... 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: Maybe we do height. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Height's the only fair thing. 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: So basically, the exemption to residential would be for exemption of 12
residential below 35 feet. That's... 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: ...what you're saying? 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: I think that would be fair. I don't know. I'd like to hear what other 19
people say. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: I mean, that makes sense to me. We're doing this by committee, so hopefully 2
we're... 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: Sorry, guys. That's what happens. We have all these smart people. 5
6
Vice Chair Chang: [Inaudible 304:43]. Let's just go with that right now because I think that 7
solves the issue and let's see how it goes. Okay? So I think there's a motion. Can staff help 8
restate it now? 9
10
Jennifer Armer: I can try and provide a summary for you of the points that I've made note of 11
and then I'll – it's – invite Ms. Cha if she has anything to modify. So what I have heard of the 12
motion from Vice Chair Chang is to revise the bird-sensitive area to not include the 300-foot 13
stream buffer, so that it is just the Baylands and Hillside areas. 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: That's the staff recommendation. Correct? Yes. That. 16
17
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 18
19
Chair Akin: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: And to provide an exemption from these regulations for residential – portions 2
of residential structures below 35 feet. 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: Unless they are in the... 5
6
Jennifer Armer: In the urban areas. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: In the urban areas. Yes. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: And did we have a retail exemption too in the staff 11
recommendations? 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: There is. 14
15
Male: Yes. 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: There is [inaudible 305:58]. 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: There already is, right? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: To strike mentions of the qualified biologist and accreditation. Also the 4
sentence that read – that started with "in addition" and continued "at least 5 years." Also 5
recommending that Council consider the cost-benefit of an ordinance versus guidelines and 6
removing the replacement of windows from the applicability. 7
8
Chair Akin: All right. I'm afraid we've monopolized the discussion down at this end of the table. 9
So do I have further commentary from other commissioners? Commissioner Hechtman. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. I'm just trying to synthesize. So let me start with the residential 12
– the low-density residential in the urban area. If I'm understanding the motion correctly, under 13
35 feet is exempt unless you are proposing a new fenestration or bird hazard installation, in 14
which case, it applies to you. Do I have that part right? 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: It's basically only if you have a replacement. [Inaudible 307:27]. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: The replacement, you're still exempt, right? If I'm [inaudible 307:32]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: No. A replacement window is exempt. A replacement bird hazard installation 1
is not. Even – that's like – actually, homes are just – below 35 feet are just exempt. 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: In the urban area. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. I like that. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: I think that's what we said. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Right. Okay. So that's in the urban area. Okay. Now let's move to the 14
rural areas. And as I understand it, in your motion, all of the rural areas are BSA, right? 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: It doesn't matter how near or far from a creek you are, it's all bird-19
sensitive area. All right? And these rules apply regardless of the nature of the use. So a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
commercial, a residential. It applies and it applies regardless of the height of the structure. So in 1
other words, your motion does not include any 35-foot or other height below which it doesn't 2
apply. Okay. And then on staff's last recommendation, the alternative compliance, you're 3
essentially recommending what staff is but more finely articulated. Okay. All right. I understand 4
the motion now. Thank you. 5
6
Chair Akin: All right. Further comments? The only question I have is, given the 35-foot height 7
limitation in the urban area, whether it is worth considering extending that to any other area. 8
And I think I know the answer but I want to make it explicit. 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: I don't think we extend it to any other area because we just [inaudible 11
309:37] that bird strikes actually happen at a higher frequency at the lower elevations, so... 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: At that site. 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. I will. Yes, at that site. But I don't think so. 16
17
Chair Akin: Any other comments on that question? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. So it would be my preference that that 35-foot rule apply 1
throughout the City and that the exception is in these creek setback areas, which – there had 2
been a recommendation of 300 feet, which we're now pulling out. I had talked about matching 3
our riparian ordinance and I don't know that there was a third suggestion that's circulated. So 4
I'm not dissuading the maker of the motion from going that way. I'm just articulating a problem 5
that I have supporting the motion. 6
7
Chair Akin: And you had looked at the Berkeley ordinance, if I remember correctly. So what did 8
they choose to do there? 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. And actually, as described in the staff report, it only applied to 11
things over 35 feet that were 10,000 square feet in size, so it's actually even larger structures, 12
which effectively eliminated all residential. 13
14
Chair Akin: Single family. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Right. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: That's big. [Inaudible 311:34]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: I just want to remind us that we're talking about the Baylands and the open 1
space, where open space is subject [inaudible 311:41]. All development, in fact, is discretionary. 2
And so that's why I just don't think that that's – I understand the desire to align with a stream 3
ordinance but I think the concerns of streams and the concerns of birds are different, so I think 4
– I mean, that's why I don't think it makes sense. In the open space, we should be respectful of 5
the open space. That's my perspective. But we'll just see – I mean, I don't even know if I have a 6
second here, so... 7
8
Chair Akin: You're probably going to shortly but... 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 11
12
Chair Akin: ...I'm just trying to make sure I understand what's going on. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: We do have a write-up of what we – staff has heard. Would it be helpful to put 15
that on the screen? 16
17
Chair Akin: Certainly. Thank you. So are we exempting low-density residential structures under 18
35 feet or portions of low-density residential structures under 35 feet? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Or was it all residential structures? 1
2
Kelly Cha: This portion. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Sorry. We've got – we're typing this up in... 5
6
Female: [Inaudible 313:07]. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: ...on different computers. Yes, 35 – yes. Any portion of residential structures 9
that are under 35 feet. 10
11
Female: [Inaudible 313:19]. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 14
15
Chair Akin: So there's – if we're done in C here and then we have the exemption under the first 16
paragraph and then any residential under 35 feet in the second, or is there a distinction there 17
that I missed? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: So I think the motion points are at the top and then we're trying to describe 1
how that would apply in those 2 sections below. 2
3
Chair Akin: Good. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: So that's... 6
7
Chair Akin: Thank you. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: ...more for illustrative for how staff understands it applying. 10
11
Chair Akin: Great. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: And you're saying we don't have to specify retail here because it's 14
already covered in a previous section we're not talking about right now. 15
16
Jennifer Armer: So we could retain the draft ordinance about retail exempting that first story... 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...window. 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 3
4
Chair Akin: All right. I hope to see more in years to come because I think we need to pursue the 5
opportunities a little more aggressively but as a compromise for now, I can second this. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: We're not ready to vote. Sorry, sir. 8
9
Chair Akin: That's... 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: I... 12
13
Chair Akin: ...okay. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: ...just saw you getting excited with the button. I'm like, no. 16
17
Chair Akin: No. It was just seconded for discussion. 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: Chair, may I make a comment? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Akin: Please do. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. An analogy is coming to mind and it's a bit harsh but 4
again, for discussion purposes, I feel like we are medieval doctors trying to treat a case of 5
smallpox and discussing which species of leech we're going to use. So that doesn't mean our 6
intentions aren't good. Our intentions are good. We want to help this person but we have no 7
data and we are making all of these changes. So one thing I would like to see added is a little bit 8
more acknowledgement – yes. [Inaudible 316:03]. The – a little bit more acknowledgement that 9
we know we have no data and that these recommendations could or could not change any of 10
the things that we don't even know what we're attempting to change but we're doing this 11
because Council asked us to. And if we can acknowledge that, then I will support this motion. 12
But if we're not going to talk about how this is really a stab in the dark, it would be hard for me 13
as a person with a strong educational background to support it because I just don't know what 14
we're trying to change. 15
16
Chair Akin: All right. So if I can paraphrase then, you're suggesting adding an item which says 17
that we lack the data to evaluate the effectiveness of these measures and so Council needs to 18
take that into consideration. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: I think that would be wise, I think, for all of us. 1
2
Chair Akin: All right. I'm not necessarily going to object to that but I will push back a little bit in 3
that there is data. It's just not local data. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: What are we going to change? How... 6
7
Chair Akin: [Inaudible 317:24]. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: ...many birds are we going to save by doing this? We don't have data 10
on that. Nobody has that data. Even though we know some birds die in certain locations, we 11
don't know how big this problem is here. 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: I'm not going to object necessarily to it either but I would point out that we 14
have all sorts of things that limit pollution, all sorts of laws that limit pollution and we don't 15
know how much we had before and we don't know how much we have afterwards. We can't 16
measure it or we could at great expense. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: Well, [inaudible 317:53]... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: So it's not [inaudible 317:53]. 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: ...going to do the same thing about that beaver that died in Barron 3
Park? Because that one crushed me. And that was 100... 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: No. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: ...percent of beavers. 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: My point is just that – well, there we have 1 data point. But my point is that 10
we have lots of laws that are – that cannot be fully measured. I'm happy to include that 11
statement but we [inaudible 318:16]. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Is that what we want our business to be though? When we're 14
making recommendations about traffic safety, we want to see safety improvements measured. 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: We do but sometimes it's cost-prohibitive to measure everything, right? Then 17
that is often the case for most environmental concerns [inaudible 318:31]. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: So if it's cost-prohibitive to measure but – why is it not then cost-1
prohibitive to impose this on other people? 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: Well, I don't think we've – so... 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: On our residents? 6
7
Vice Chair Chang: ...I think we do have some data points. I mean, I don't – I only heard them 8
through public comment but we did have some data points [inaudible 318:53]. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: I mean, [inaudible 318:53]... 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: And one of the 3... 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: ...we're talking about? 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: No. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: A thousand? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: I'm not – so I don't know how – how do you value the life of a bird, right? It 1
starts getting really theoretical. My point is that... 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Well, I don't mean the value of the bird. I mean the number of dead 4
birds. 5
6
Chair Akin: Well, you do have a rule of thumb, which is the Scott Loss paper that I quoted 7
earlier, which if I remember correctly says about 2.1 strikes resulting in death per single-family 8
– well, they broke up buildings by height. So low buildings. So we're talking... 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: The rural ones or the city ones? We don't even know. 11
12
Chair Akin: They do break that down. So the 2.1 number that I quoted for you was for urban. So 13
you can say, "How many single-family residences are there in Palo Alto?" 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: Was it urban like Palo Alto or was it urban like Boston? 16
17
Chair Akin: It's a meta study, so it's a mix of different sites, right? So it's an average but you're 18
asking for what data we have. What data we have is limited. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. It is. It really is. 1
2
Chair Akin: But I think the core of the objection is that if you insist that we have to have a local 3
study of very high statistical significance, that the cost of doing that will be equivalent to not 4
doing anything for the ordinance at all... 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Well... 7
8
Chair Akin: ...in... 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: ...and... 11
12
Chair Akin: ...which... 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: ...that's... 15
16
Chair Akin: ...case we... 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: ...the... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: ...could save a lot of time... 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: ...cost... 3
4
Chair Akin: ...and... 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: ...benefit... 7
8
Chair Akin: ...expense. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: ...analysis is the thing. It's not like I'm making that up. That's a whole 11
economic principle, right? We do have to know. If we're going to ask for potentially hundreds of 12
thousands of dollars from our homeowners, we need to know why. 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: But we're not asking this from our homeowners. That's the whole point, 15
right? That's – we just exempted them, for the most part. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: If they live in a single-family home. Are we doing all of them now? 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: We said 35 feet. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: All of them? So 35 feet. So... 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: Only in the urbanized area. The [inaudible 320:54]. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. I know. It's just a – it's a stretch but as long as include that, it's 6
actually Council's decision, so I'm cool with that as long as we say, "You guys should know, 7
there's absolutely no basis for any of our recommendations." 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: Well, I don't know that I would go... 10
11
Chair Akin: I... 12
13
Vice Chair Chang: ...that... 14
15
Chair Akin: ...wouldn't... 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: ...far. 18
19
Chair Akin: ...phrase it that way. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: I think I would say that there is no ability for us to measure the effectiveness 2
of this intervention. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: Or to quantify the scope of the existing problem. 5
6
Vice Chair Chang: I wouldn't go so far as to say that either because I think there is data from 7
averages. 8
9
Chair Akin: Well, it's not... 10
11
Vice Chair Chang: Just... 12
13
Chair Akin: ...local. 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: It's not local. It's not perfect. But yes. So yes. I want to make sure the 16
seconder's okay with this... 17
18
Chair Akin: So... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: ...addition. 1
2
Chair Akin: ...still working on the phrasing. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: We have put on the screen a new bullet from the language stated earlier but 5
please feel free to let us know if you'd like us to change that. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: How about – what about the... 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: [Inaudible 322:01] the ability to... 10
11
Chair Akin: I can support that as written. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Effectiveness of these measures and – okay. Sure. 14
15
Commissioner Peterson: Can I speak to that, Chair? 16
17
Chair Akin: Commissioner Peterson. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Peterson: Thank you. So I think the PTC feels there's a lack of data to evaluate 1
the effectiveness of these measures but I think that's applicable to residential – single-family 2
residential or residential under 35. I mean, I came in here pretty confident that anything 3
commercial, I mean, it's pretty solid that the commercial buildings – a lot of them, the way 4
they're built, especially the ones we saw in the presentation, like the Mountain View all-glass 5
buildings. Those ones there, they're just bird magnets. It seemed like that was clear. It's when 6
we get to the residential, it was not clear at all. That's my take... 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: That's... 9
10
Commissioner Peterson: ...on it. 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: ...a great addition. 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: How about the effectiveness or the need for these measures? Or do 15
we not agree on that? 16
17
Vice Chair Chang: It's not so much that the need. I think what you're talking about is the ability 18
to measure the problem locally. That's what you're saying. [Inaudible 323:23]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: We... 1
2
Vice Chair Chang: So I... 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: ...don't know. We don't... 5
6
Vice Chair Chang: So... 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: ...know. 9
10
Vice Chair Chang: ...right. So... 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: So... 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: ...I... 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: ...it's... 17
18
Vice Chair Chang: ...would... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: ...not just the effectiveness of the data but we don't even have a 1
beginning point. 2
3
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. So PTC feels that there is a lack of data to quantify the current 4
magnitude of the problem as well as... 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: And I would... 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: Is... 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: ...suggest... 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: ...that... 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: ...it's... 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: ...what... 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: ...not a... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: ...you're saying? 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: Okay. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Exactly. And I would suggest it's not a feeling. I think maybe we 7
should acknowledge... 8
9
Vice Chair Chang: Right. That's fine. Quantify the current magnitude of the problem. 10
11
Chair Akin: It's sufficient to just say "quantify the problem" but yes. Commissioner Ji. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: I don't – this doesn't really, I don't think, change my stance on the motion as is 14
but I just wanted to say that without lack of – without any evidence but I do feel like large 15
apartment buildings that are under 35 feet feel similar-ish to office. When I'm in my office at 16
work, which is probably 2 or 3 stories, it – the building in terms of the windows and the 17
structure is similar to a multi-family residential but I don't want to open this can of worms 18
because I feel like we have aligned on this but I just wanted to say that just for saying it. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Yes. I think that... 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 324:50]. 3
4
Commissioner Ji: Right. So I... 5
6
Chair Akin: And... 7
8
Commissioner Ji: ...and I don't know how I feel about – I mean, I think I'm happy with the 9
motion as is but I just wanted to say that just for the record. 10
11
Chair Akin: Yes. And also, it triggers the balance of priorities issue that we talked about earlier. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: So [inaudible 325:12]. 14
15
Chair Akin: All right. As... 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. Should we say "if implemented" at the end of that? Yes. No. 18
After "for residential if implemented." 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Female: Okay. 1
2
Chair Akin: I can accept that. Commissioner Hechtman. 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Just a clarifying question. "Keep the first-floor commercial 5
exemption," does that mean – since we've exempted residential in the urban area up to 35 6
feet, does that exclude all the other buildings or is that only retail but not office? 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: So... 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: What... 11
12
Vice Chair Chang: ...that... 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: ...do we... 15
16
Vice Chair Chang: ...wasn't... 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: ...mean by commercial? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: So just – that wasn't part of my motion. That is just an implication from the 1
motion, which is – the motion has some – the current ordinance has a section that exempts 2
some commercial, so it's – so I'm leaving that alone because that wasn't part of the staff 3
recommendation. 4
5
Kelly Cha: This is the section where it talks about the exemption for the first floor of commercial 6
uses? 7
8
Male: Certain [inaudible 326:34]. 9
10
Kelly Cha: So we're not touching this, basically? That's what... 11
12
Jennifer Armer: In... 13
14
Kelly Cha: ...you're saying? 15
16
Jennifer Armer: ...the current motion. So we've removed that point from the write-up of the 17
motion. That was more for clarification that this section was going to be retained as... 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: I would ask... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: ...stated. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: ...staff to please include that in their write-up for Council so that 4
there's no confusion. 5
6
Jennifer Armer: Okay. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: So then I'll ask my question about the language that you were just 9
showing that we're not touching through this motion. And that is, is that referring – because it 10
looks like it's in – I'll wait till you do this so you can show it again. It looks like that's in retail 11
districts, retail areas. And so I think that's generally referring mostly to retail, not so much 12
office. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: Correct. That was the intent. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: Vice Chair Chang: But... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Chang: So you... 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: ...and if... 3
4
Vice Chair Chang: ...but it doesn't distinguish. If there is commercial that's not retail in those 5
areas, it's also exempted. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Right. But do we all agree that any office is commercial? 8
9
Jennifer Armer: It – I might be able to provide a little more clarification as to why it's worded in 10
that way if it'd... 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: ...be helpful. I – that wording could, in some cases, include office, though in 15
most of those zones, office is not allowed on the ground floor... 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...or it's restricted. And so the intent was that there are some districts that do 1
allow a variety of different uses, and so when you're designing the building, you might not 2
know if it's going to be retail or personal service or some other use, and so it had to be based 3
on – to – for clarity and predictability, when the building's being designed, we didn't want to set 4
up a situation where a retail tenant would be coming in, the window wasn't treated or was 5
treated because it had been designated for a different use previously but retail is allowed. So 6
that was the aim of this wording but any change could be part of the recommendation. 7
8
Chair Akin: All right. Could we have the motion [inaudible 328:53] once again? All right. I think 9
we're going once, going twice on this. Is there any further discussion? Any clarification needed? 10
All right, then. I believe it's time to call a vote. Mr. Tavera. 11
12
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Commissioner Templeton. 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 15
16
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James. 17
18
Commissioner James: Respectfully, no. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman. 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: No. 3
4
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson. 5
6
Commissioner Peterson: Yes. 7
8
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji. 9
10
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 11
12
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang. 13
14
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 15
16
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin. 17
18
Chair Akin: Yes. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries 5-2. 1
2
Chair Akin: Would you like to speak to your no votes, gentlemen? Commissioner James. 3
4
Commissioner James: Well, I just think I – with the caveat, that got me closer but I still think the 5
implication is, even with the caveat, that we are more certain of this problem than we are. It's 6
like, "I didn't mean to do it but I did it." So I just – I was a bit on the fence. I was more 7
comfortable with that caveat but in the end, it's like if I just really don't – have remained 8
unconvinced that we really know what this problem is and how to fix it and the birds – I mean, I 9
actually want to help the birds but I'm just not sure that we know enough to do that. They don't 10
care if it's a retail or a house or whatever. I mean, the birds are – it's just – there's just a lot of 11
assumptions here that I'm just having a hard time with. So – but anyway, respectfully, I 12
appreciate all the work people did to get to the yes vote. I just couldn't join you. 13
14
Chair Akin: Thank you. Commissioner Hechtman. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: So I really appreciate how far we came tonight. Honestly, when I 17
walked into the room tonight, I didn't think we would end up with the ordinance 18
recommendation that was approved. I thought it would be a lot more onerous. So I really 19
appreciate all the work that all the commissioners did to reach that point. For me, I just wanted 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to really register that the parts that we left on the table I still think go a little too far without 1
enough data to support. I think on the non-residential, I feel like we feel like it's okay to impose 2
this additional cost on these non-residential buildings below 35 feet because the owners are in 3
a profit-making situation, although that wasn't really articulated by anybody but that's where 4
that comes from. Even though the impacts below 35 feet of a commercial building are not, at 5
least what I've seen, demonstrably worse than a 35-foot or less residential building. So I had 6
that issue and then the issue with basically picking on residential in the non-urban areas just 7
because they're there in a more open area – I wanted to see something tethering them to a 8
reasonable proximity to the bird flight corridors associated with the creek rather than just birds 9
fly all over that area. So those are the 2 things that I wasn't comfortable enough with to impose 10
in this round, knowing that we could come back 2, 3, 4 years later and add more. But I'm happy 11
to move this on to Council and I think the Commission did really great work tonight. 12
13
Chair Akin: Good points. Thank you very much, both of you gentlemen. I appreciate that 14
analysis. All right. With that, this item is concluded. We have a couple of straightforward things 15
left to do. 16
17
18
APPROVAL OF MINUTES 19
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 20
21
4. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary & Verbatim 22
Minutes of September 24, 2025. 23
24
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Item Number 4, approval of draft summary and verbatim minutes for September 24, 1
2025. I don't know whether we can do these – Ms. Cha, are you about to leave? If so, thank you 2
very much for... 3
4
Kelly Cha: Thank you and happy holidays. 5
6
Female: [Inaudible 333:42]. 7
8
Chair Akin: Thank you. All right. Were any commissioners absent for either of these dates? 9
10
Samuel Tavera: I wanted – through the Chair, I did want to note that Commissioner James was 11
absent for October 8. Yes. 12
13
Chair Akin: Okay. So we'll do them separately then. Item Number 4, approval of minutes for 14
September 24, 2025. I – do we have any public comment? 15
16
Samuel Tavera: I have received no requests to – I have no public comment cards and I have no 17
raised hands on Zoom. 18
19
Chair Akin: Very good. So can we do this by voice vote, since we're all... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Chang: [Inaudible 334:42]. 2
3
Chair Akin: Oh, yes. Of course. You're right. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Can I – you want [inaudible 334:47]... 6
7
Chair Akin: Call the vote, please. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: ...motion first? Do we need a motion? 10
11
Chair Akin: Yes, we do. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. Move approval as revised. 14
15
Commissioner Ji: Second. 16
17
Samuel Tavera: Okay. Commissioner Peterson. 18
19
Commissioner Peterson: Aye. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Aye. 4
5
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji. 6
7
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 8
9
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James. 10
11
Commissioner James: Yes. 12
13
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Hechtman. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 16
17
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang. 18
19
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin. 2
3
Chair Akin: Yes. 4
5
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries 7-0. 6
7
8
5. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary & Verbatim 9
Minutes of October 8, 2025 10
11
Chair Akin: And we move on to Item Number 5, approval of the minutes for October 8, 2025. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: I'll move the meeting minutes as revised. 14
15
Vice Chair Chang: Second. 16
17
Chair Akin: And we also have to ask if there's public comment but... 18
19
Samuel Tavera: Yes. I've received no comment cards and no raised hands on Zoom. 20
21
Chair Akin: Thank you. 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Ji: I'll move my motion again. 2
3
Chair Akin: That's okay. It's still on the table. So it's been moved and seconded and we need to 4
call the roll. 5
6
Samuel Tavera: Yes. Commissioner Hechtman. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 9
10
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Ji. 11
12
Commissioner Ji: Yes. 13
14
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Peterson. 15
16
Commissioner Peterson: Yes. 17
18
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner Templeton. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 1
2
Samuel Tavera: Commissioner James. 3
4
Commissioner James: Abstain. 5
6
Samuel Tavera: Vice Chair Chang. 7
8
Vice Chair Chang: Yes. 9
10
Samuel Tavera: Chair Akin. 11
12
Chair Akin: Yes. 13
14
Samuel Tavera: Motion carries 6-0-1 with Commissioner James abstaining. 15
16
Chair Akin: Thank you very much. 17
18
Commissioner Questions, Comments or Announcements 19
Members of the public may not speak to the item(s). 20
21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Last, we have commissioner questions, comments, and announcements. Anyone up 1
today? 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Happy holidays everybody. 4
5
Vice Chair Chang: Happy birthday, Chair Akin. 6
7
Male: Yes. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Oh, happy birthday. 10
11
Male: [Inaudible 336:10]. 12
13
Commissioner Ji: I was still... 14
15
Chair Akin: I have 23 minutes left. 16
17
Commissioner Ji: Yes. I was afraid we would end up not on the birthday anymore by the end of 18
the meeting. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided that
the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Akin: Thank you all. We are now adjourned. 1
2
Adjournment 3
11:37 p.m. 4
5
6
/etke 7