HomeMy WebLinkAbout2024-10-30 Planning & Transportation Commission Verbatim Minutes_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Planning & Transportation Commission 1
Verbatim Minutes: October 30, 2024 2
Council Chambers & Virtual 3
6:00 PM 4
5
Call to Order / Roll Call 6
6:01 PM 7
Chair Chang: Good evening, everyone. Happy Halloween Eve. Calling to order today’s regular 8
meeting of the Planning and Transportation Commission for Wednesday, October 30. 9
10
Roll Call 11
Chair Chang: Could you please call the roll? 12
13
Administrative Associate Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 14
15
Chair Chang: Here. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Vice Chair Reckdahl? 18
19
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Here. 20
21
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Here. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Here. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 8
9
Commissioner Summa: Here. 10
11
Veronica Dao: We have a quorum. 12
13
Oral Communications 14
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 15
Chair Chang: So the first order of business is public comment on any item that is not agendized 16
tonight. Are there any speaker cards? 17
18
Veronica Dao: I have one raised hand on Zoom from Aram. 19
20
Chair Chang: Okay. 21
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Aram James: Good evening. Are you able to hear me? 2
3
Chair Chang: Yes, we can. 4
5
Aram James: Okay. This is a little piece called courage. And can I see the clock? I can’t see the 6
clock. I’m looking for just one candidate for school board or City Council with the courage to 7
take on those who would ban books, eliminate black studies and take on the US and Israeli 8
death machine in Palestine and now Lebanon and Iran, a candidate who will speak out against 9
the powerful pro-Israeli lobbyists here in Palo Alto and across this country. Speak out against 10
the possible election of a Jewish, white supremacist, genocide-supporting Zionist as Palo Alto’s 11
next mayor. Let me read that again. Speak out against the possible election of a Jewish, white 12
supremacist, genocide-supporting Zionist as Palo Alto’s next mayor. We need an insurgence of 13
truly progressive warriors, not politicians who weigh their every word based on political 14
expedience in the expectation of their next political office, courageous politicians who care 15
nothing about the incestuous endorsement process here in Palo Alto. You know. You scratch 16
my back and I’ll scratch yours. No Zionist-supporting candidates that are pandering for 17
endorsements from the likes of Jewish white supremacists, pro-Israeli politicians like Marc 18
Berman and Josh Becker. The time spent seeking out bottom-feeding endorsements can instead 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
be spent speaking to the people in the community and formulating policy that can genuinely 1
make a difference. Let’s talk a little bit about the First Amendment. 2
3
A couple of you may end up on the City Council and you need to know this: The core principle 4
of the First Amendment is the right to criticize or verbally attack public officials. In New York 5
Times versus Sullivan, a 1963 Supreme Court decision, 9 to nothing. The majority [opinioned 6
7:52] by the brilliant Justice Brennan wrote, thus we discussed this [case 7:55] against the 7
background of a profound national commitment [to 7:59] the principles of debate on public 8
issues should be uninhibited, robust, wide open and that may well include vehement, caustic 9
and sometimes, yes, and sometimes – here we go – unpleasantly sharp attacks on government 10
officials. If you can’t handle that, then you don’t – you’re not fit to hold public office. Let me 11
just tell you something. I went to the UN Film Festival this last week and saw Where the Olive 12
Trees Weep about the settlers [in 8:29] the West Bank and the way that they just terrorize the 13
Palestinian people and knock down their homes. In Livermore, the same night that I watched 14
that movie here in Palo Alto, a theater owner who offered up his theater for a showing in 15
Livermore was so intimidated by crazed Zionists that sent hate messages to him from all over 16
the country threatening to close down his theater and ruin his business if he showed the film, 17
was in fact intimidated to the point where he no longer wanted to show the film. Thank you. 18
19
Female: Thank you. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: That’s it for public comment, correct, Miss Dao? 2
3
Veronica Dao: Yes. That’s all our speakers. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. 6
7
Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions 8
The Chair or Commission majority may modify the agenda order to improve meeting management. 9
Chair Chang: So our next agenda item is agenda changes, additions and deletions? 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: I’d just like… 12
13
Female: [We 9:18]... 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: ...to let people know I got here [inaudible 9:19]. 16
17
Assistant Director Jennifer Armer: No changes to the agenda but I was going to state for the 18
record that Commissioner Templeton has joined us. 19
20
Chair Chang: Okay. 21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
City Official Reports 2
1. Directors Report, Meeting Schedule and Assignments 3
Chair Chang: City official reports. Is Mr. Ruis is here from or… 4
5
Jennifer Armer: Yes. He will be joining us. 6
7
Chair Chang: Ruis here? Okay. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: Yeah. He’s joining us… 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: ...remote-... 14
15
Chair Chang: Great. 16
17
Jennifer Armer: ...-ly. 18
19
Chair Chang: I don’t know who wants to go first. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: I will go ahead and go first and then he can follow on if he has anything to add. 2
So next slide. So upcoming meetings, at the next PTC meeting, on November 13, we have 3
scheduled the annual comprehensive plan reporting and also the implementation programs, a 4
number of implementation programs for the Housing Element that involve zoning or changes to 5
the zoning code. Then we have a number of potential items for your December meetings that 6
include returning to you with the AHIP Ordinance, an update on the parking programs and as 7
well as a couple of community [zone 10:38] projects. We’ve got a planned home zoning project 8
at 3265 El Camino Real – sorry for the typo there – and a amendment to a planned community 9
zone at 4075 El Camino Real. The exact dates for those will be resolved in the coming weeks. 10
Next page. And one update on a item going to Council next month on November 12, this is 11
something that came to the PTC in May and July of this year implementing a number of state 12
laws. And so as stated, that will be going November 12. And that’s the end of my report. Thank 13
you. 14
15
Chair Chang: Does anybody have any questions for Miss Armer? I have a quick question, so the 16
list of items that are listed for potentially December, is there a chance that they might come 17
sooner because it looks like we’ve got a tentative meeting scheduled in November to make up 18
for the Thanksgiving meeting? 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Correct. So we did hold a time for that special meeting the week before 1
Thanksgiving rather than the night before Thanksgiving. But at this point, it doesn’t look like any 2
of them will be ready to make it to that hearing. We are hoping to have 2 items for each of the 3
2 meetings we have in December. The first one will be the regular meeting on the second 4
Wednesday of the month and then the other 2 items would go the following week at a special 5
meeting so that we’re not trying to schedule a meeting on Christmas. Thank you. 6
7
Chair Chang: Is there a chance that we would – well maybe this is for Transportation. I was 8
wondering if there was a chance that we would hear the parking update, which didn’t quite 9
happen. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: At this point, we have that scheduled for one of the December meetings. 12
13
Chair Chang: Okay. All right. Then, Mr. Rius? 14
15
Senior Engineer Rafael Rius: Thank you. Thank you, Chair and Commissioners. Rafael Rius, 16
Senior Engineer with the Office of Transportation. I only have one minor update today and 17
that’s next week’s PABAC meeting, the Bike and Pedestrian Advisory Committee meeting is 18
going to be cancelled. It’s election night. And that’s my only update for this meeting. And if you 19
have any questions, ready to take them. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Anybody have any questions for Mr. Rius? 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. Two questions. One is the Wilkie Way bike bridge is under 4
construction. Do you know what’s going on there? 5
6
Rafael Rius: I do not know the details. Our Public Works Department is working on the surfacing 7
of the bridge. I don’t know much more details of that… 8
9
Male: [Inaudible 13:52]. 10
11
Rafael Rius: ...effort. 12
13
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 14
15
Transportation Planning Manager Sylvia Star-Lack: I can chime in a little bit here. I’m Sylvia Star-16
Lack, Transportation Planning Manager in Office of Transportation. I believe the last I heard is 17
that Public Works is waiting to get clearance for the pop-up bike lane that will need to be put in 18
place on El Camino Real in order for that work to begin because the traffic on the bridge has to 19
get detoured somewhere. And I think they need to get that... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 2
3
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...through. 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: They’ve put some bollards along the road right now so there is a separated 6
bike lane on El Camino right now at that location. 7
8
Sylvia Star-Lack: Oh. 9
10
Vice Chair Reckdahl: But it doesn’t go all the way to Arastradero . It’s only goes part of the way. 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: Okay. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: It’s like from – what is it? 15
16
Sylvia Star-Lack: Monroe. 17
18
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Monroe to roughly the creek there. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Sylvia Star-Lack: Okay. 1
2
Rafael Rius: Could it be Del Medio where there is an access back to Wilkie [inaudible 14:54]. 3
4
Sylvia Star-Lack: This is going north to Charleston. And my understanding... 5
6
Rafael Rius: [But 14:58]... 7
8
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...[is it’s 1:58] supposed to go all the way north... 9
10
Male: [Okay 15:00]. 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...to Charleston. 13
14
Rafael Rius: Yeah. 15
16
Sylvia Star-Lack: So they’re... 17
18
Male: [Okay 15:03]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...probably are just getting that set up. 1
2
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. They’re still working it. Okay. And the second one was we had the 3
collision data and we still don’t have the column that has the severe injuries. Is that coming? 4
5
Jennifer Armer: So I’ll start by responding to that question. So I have reached out to our Police 6
Department and some of the others who are involved in obtaining that information. And at this 7
point, this report out that we’ve shared with you, that’s something that’s already prepared for 8
one of the other committees and so it’s a quick and easy thing to be able to share. It doesn’t 9
involve any analysis and it’s kind of the information that’s already available. To get additional 10
detailed information would require additional extra work to add that in. In addition, sometimes 11
that additional detail isn’t actually available to the public until – more delayed. So if we want to 12
have the September data in October, that quick reporting then often that kind of additional 13
detail isn’t available. What I can say is that if we are bringing forward to you a transportation 14
project where that information will be an important deciding factor, we will make sure that we 15
get you as much detailed and up-to-date information as we can. 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: So do we have a plan? Will we eventually get it or is this put on the shelf? 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: So we actually are looking at dates next year to come and speak with you about 1
a safety plan, I believe is what it’s being called. 2
3
Female: Right. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: So additional work on that is in progress and we do hope to bring that to you 6
early next year. 7
8
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Because when we look at the data, there’s all these injuries listed 9
there and we have no idea – are they just someone fell down and scraped their knee or is this 10
severe. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: That’s correct. And a lot of times that data is just preliminary information from 13
the officers on the scene and they don’t necessarily know the extent of what those injuries 14
actually are. So we’ve been able to pull that together to provide to you on a regular basis so you 15
could have a sense of what’s going on. But to do anything more detailed, I think will need to be 16
as part of those future projects. When it’s connected with something that you’re working 17
directly on, we will, as I said, get you as much detailed information, as current information as 18
we can. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Now the Bike and Ped Plan, the purpose of that is to minimize severe 1
injuries. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: Absolutely and that is the Safety Plan that’ll be brought to you for further 4
discussion – for discussion next year. 5
6
Vice Chair Reckdahl: And so that will have a compilation or will it be broken down where these 7
locations are that... 8
9
Jennifer Armer: I’ve not had the opportunity to review it yet. It isn’t finished. But I do know that 10
our Transportation staff is aware of your interest in this kind of detail and so, at this point, I 11
can’t commit to what detail is... 12
13
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 14
15
Jennifer Armer: ...going to be available [inaudible 18:14]. 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Just from our point of view, we... 18
19
Female: I can. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...want something that’s [actionable] [inaudible 18:16]... 2
3
Jennifer Armer: Okay. All right. I’m passing... 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...[inaudible 18:18]... 6
7
Jennifer Armer: ...it off. 8
9
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...Sylvia. 10
11
Sylvia Star-Lack: So the Safety Action Plan that we’ll be bringing to you early in 2025 is almost 12
wholly based on the collision data for the past 5 years. And you saw that collision analysis. We 13
brought it here, so you have that information for the past 5 years. Because of the kind of 14
unreliability of that injury data that Jennifer was talking about, having that data in the short 15
term isn’t super helpful. It’s really important to get that data as you’re looking back, like it’s just 16
a – so... 17
18
Vice Chair Reckdahl: You’re saying that the trends aren’t apparent if you just look at a few 19
months’ worth of data? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Sylvia Star-Lack: Well, I mean we won’t know necessarily. It’s exactly what she said, that the 2
police make a guess as to what it is but it might change and so. 3
4
Chair Chang: From a data collection perspective – because as we talked about the goal is to get 5
to zero and I would... 6
7
Sylvia Star-Lack: Right. 8
9
Chair Chang: ...h-, and I imagine that once we have the plan in place and want to monitor 10
progress on it, that we’re not going to be waiting a year to look at the prior year’s data. That 11
makes sense. So what I’m wondering is since the PTC has things like this report in December 12
that will be a – what was it called? Since the PTC has a – sorry. In December, as Miss Armer had 13
shown that there’s like an approval of a plan, so I’m just hoping that maybe we can Institute 14
something that ensures that at least once a year... 15
16
Female: Yes. 17
18
Chair Chang: ...we get something and obviously it won’t have the last 6 months data perhaps in 19
it but everything 6 months prior with respect to the serious injuries and the deaths. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Sylvia Star-Lack: Right. So, unfortunately, collision data, particularly if you want it mapped and if 2
you want good quality data, you’re not even going to get 6-month-ago data. You’re going to get 3
a year. The best data is a year or 18 months old actually because it takes forever for it to get 4
through the system, through all the various databases and get reported, so... 5
6
Chair Chang: Yeah. I know that you would wish you would have it sooner... 7
8
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yes. 9
10
Chair Chang: ...so I feel like this is a big problem. 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: It’s a Statewide problem though. 13
14
Chair Chang: Yeah. 15
16
Sylvia Star-Lack: So just to say that I agree, yes, we want to be looking at the data more 17
regularly. That will be something that is in the Safety Action Plan that we’ll be bringing to you in 18
January, I hope, and separate from that is the Bike Plan. So the Safety Action Plan is the one 19
that has the goal of zero injuries. The Bike Plan is aligned with that but that’s not the most 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
explicit goal of the Bike Plan. It’s the Safety Action Plan is about getting to zero injuries but it’s 1
also zero injuries for all modes of travel, not just biking and walking. 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. 4
5
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton? 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. Just appreciate this discussion and trying to understand 8
what – I’m sorry [inaudible 21:48] – okay – and just trying to understand are you saying that 9
you need something in order to be able to provide that data in a timely manner and are you 10
asking Council or other interagency cooperation for that? 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: So actually all of those things might be happening. 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. 15
16
Sylvia Star-Lack: So the analysis of the data needs to happen. We need to make sure we’re 17
getting the best data that we can. The plan itself will talk about trying to get data from other 18
sources, not just the state’s injury database. San Jose Vision Zero is looking at getting data from 19
the trauma centers in the county. That’s going to require a whole agreement and so there’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
work to be done. But, yes, we want to be looking at the data in a more regular way and you’ll 1
see in the plan there’ll be some tasks and things regarding how often and when we should be 2
updating the plan and monitoring. There’s also something about metrics, performance metrics 3
and just kind of keeping track of certain things that we currently don’t do. But we need you to 4
look at the plan and give us your feedback on what kinds of things we can be doing in this area. 5
So I’m really excited to bring the plan to you get your feedback on all of these tasks. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Awesome. I think it would be wonderful to look at it and go through 8
it and I think also just to explicitly state what things you need from other people so that the 9
council and other agencies that are interested can officially hear it. That’d be great. Thanks. 10
11
Sylvia Star-Lack: Mm-hm. 12
13
Chair Chang: I don’t see any other lights but I do have one other question for Mr. Rius regarding 14
transportation. So it was a news item and I know there’s been significant public interest and 15
also some public comments sent to us about this. So there’s a news item about Tesla being in 16
conversation with the City of Palo Alto about using Palo Alto as a testing area for its 17
autonomous or driverless vehicles. And so I wondered if that is indeed true or what the status is 18
of that. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Rafael Rius: Thank you for that question. I’m not familiar with that report personally. I’ll try to 1
look into it and see if I can bring an update for our next meeting but I’m not familiar with that 2
particular article or... 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. Yeah. There’s defin-... 5
6
Rafael Rius: Sure. 7
8
Chair Chang: ...-itely significant public interest regarding that topic. Oh, and Commissioner 9
Templeton has a comment too. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Would that be going through the Transportation Department or... 12
13
Female: [Yeah 25:05]. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: ...some other department in the City? 16
17
Female: No. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Sylvia Star-Lack: [25:09] I can take it. The City of Palo Alto does not regulate autonomous 1
vehicles. It is those are regulated through the CPUC and the DMV, so it would not go through 2
us. 3
4
Chair Chang: Thank you. That’s helpful to understand. I think that wraps it up for our staff 5
reports or director’s reports. 6
7
Action Items 8
Public Comment is Permitted. Five (5) minutes per speaker. 9
10
2. Recommend City Council Adopt a Draft Ordinance Updating the Palo Alto Municipal 11
Code (PAMC) Section 18.40.140 (Stream Corridor Protection). Environmental 12
Assessment: Exempt pursuant to CEQA Guidelines Section 15308 (Actions for 13
Protection of the Environment). 14
15
Chair Chang: So our first action item tonight is regarding – let’s see – it’s called the Planning and 16
Transportation Commission to recommend the City Council to adopt the draft ordinances 17
updating Palo Alto Municipal Code Chapters 18.40, General Standards and Exceptions, and 18
Sections 18.40.230, Rooftop Gardens, and 18.40.250, Lighting and adding a new section, 19
18.40.280, Bird-Friendly Design. So could we have the staff report on that? 20
21
Senior Planner Kelly Cha: Yes. Good evening, Chair, Vice Chair and Commissioners. My name is 22
Kelly Cha. I’m here to present the draft lighting and bird-friendly design ordinances. So just as a 23
reminder, this is a Council priority for this year. So the lighting ordinance generally follows a 24
dark sky principles to reduce the light pollution and the bird-friendly design ordinance is 25
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
actually going to be an implementation of comprehensive plan policy in addition to completing 1
the Council priority once it’s adopted. This was discussed prior in the August 24 PTC hearing 2
and we have received a number of comments and feedback from the PTC. So the current 3
version of the draft ordinances addresses those concerns and feedback. The lighting ordinance, 4
as it was mentioned, it will be repealing the existing lighting section and replace with the new 5
language in Attachment A. So the changes basically allowed the lighting standards to allow to 6
new construction and substantial remodel only. And then we have changed the light color 7
temperature to 2,700 from 3,000 after speaking with the City’s Police and Fire Departments. 8
And the ordinance now has a threshold of average maximum of 0.5 foot candles to regulate 9
light trespass. 10
11
And the lighting control or also known as light curfew exceptions are going to be allowed for 12
building entrances, parking areas, walkways and driveways and this was one of the comments 13
we have received from the previous PTC hearing. And we have received number of comments 14
under special purpose lighting section of the ordinance. For the outdoor athletic facilities 15
lighting, there’s some revisions proposed after discussing the standards with the City’s 16
Community Services Department. With that conversation, staff added an exception for public 17
facilities to provide some flexibility. And automobile service station lighting, it was before called 18
gas station lighting. The automobile service station is a term that we have in the municipal 19
code, so we’re switching that term to be consistent. And we have added a new section called 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
outdoor space above ground floor. That was added because of the feedback received related to 1
the rooftop businesses, restaurants and bars. And staff actually found out there was a lighting 2
regulations or provision standard in rooftop garden section, so we have moved that standard 3
into this section. That’s why there is amendments to the rooftop garden section as well in the 4
ordinance. 5
6
For the lighting near streams, staff, when we brought the Stream Corridor Protection Ordinance 7
early October, staff mentioned that the lighting requirements will be part of the lighting section 8
assuming that the stream ordinance would move faster, that we would have the terms that’s 9
included in the stream ordinance. We were planning on using those terms in the lighting 10
section, refer to those, that particular chapter but because that schedule has shifted a little bit 11
we are planning to bring back the updates to this particular lighting section at the same time as 12
the stream ordinance. For the bird-friendly design standards, it will be a new section in the in 13
the municipal code. And majority of the feedback received from the PTC was related to the 14
definition of bird-sensitive area and the applicability. Staff revised the definition to apply the 15
bird sensitive area only to the areas west of Foothill Expressway and east of Highway 101. 16
That’s basically excluding the urban, the flatland area. And under the bird-friendly treatment 17
section, we have added the decals, films or other what we call non-permanent markers for 18
residential and residential portion of the mixed-use development as requested by the PTC. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
And staff also removed the threat factor option from that section because after reviewing what 1
staff had to actually go through to confirm all of the information related to threat factor, it was 2
decided that it might be too difficult, it might delay the review process of the projects. So staff 3
decided to remove that option but it’s up for the PTC discussion. And because after reviewing 4
the ordinance altogether, we have found out that having that location requirement, which was 5
like the threshold of a 40 feet and there was a percentage of glazing where treatment had to be 6
applied, with the size regulation requirement under applicability, we have found that it might 7
be too complicated to actually apply that location requirements, that we have removed that 8
section altogether. So those are some of the changes in the ordinance. There are no changes to 9
the applicability section but we wanted to clarify a little bit on those provisions. So I think it’s 10
very clear within the bird-sensitive area any new construction or substantial remodels, any 11
windows proposed in those projects would have to prepare the treated glasses or exterior 12
features to make sure that the bird collision is reduced. But I think the size threshold is where 13
it’s a little bit confusing. So this table is trying to make that clarification hopefully no further 14
confusion. 15
16
But it’s basically saying any new windows within the bird-sensitive area, new construction, 17
substantial remodel and any new windows or replacement of the existing windows regardless 18
of the size, they would have to actually have bird treatments. So that’s more restrictive because 19
those are bird-sensitive areas. If you’re outside of the bird sensitive area though, the treatment 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
only applies to any new or replacement of existing windows that are unbroken and 24 square 1
feet in size or larger. Any other windows that doesn’t fit into that eligibility requirement, they 2
wouldn’t have to actually have to comply with these requirements. So the staff thought behind 3
that was that with that requirement applied to the outside of the bird-sensitive area, it’ll 4
provide some flexibility for architects and designers to change their design if needed for the 5
cost-related concerns or something else. They could come up with some other designs that 6
wouldn’t make them actually have those bird-sensitive, bird-friendly treatments on those 7
glasses. Staff recommendation is that PTC recommend City Council to adopt the draft 8
ordinances updating the lighting section as well as rooftop garden section and adding a new 9
section for the bird-friendly design. And this item, if it is forwarded to the City Council, will be 10
heard before City Council in Winter 2025. So that concludes the staff presentation. And staff is 11
ready to answer any questions. 12
13
Chair Chang: Thank you, Miss Cha. So because these are 2 different – so we’re going to do 14
Commission clarifying questions but if I can ask you to be clear if you’re asking any questions 15
which portion of the ordinance it refers to. I think that might help us keep things straight so 16
whether it’s referring to dark skies or whether it’s referring to bird-safe, bird-friendly design, 17
that would be very helpful. So, Commissioners, any clarifying questions? Commissioner Akin, 18
then Suma, then Lu. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. I just have a few. With regard to dark skies on Packet 1
Page 21 in E1A talking about shielding, where is the lighting trespass measured? For example, I 2
could imagine a light cone coming down from a luminaire and striking the ground at the 3
property line but then it wouldn’t be visible at 10 feet above the property line. So when you do 4
the plan evaluation, how do you measure that? 5
6
Kelly Cha: So under shielding on page 21, it says – we have added the language no lighting shall 7
trespass more than 0.5 foot candle as measured at the abutting property line. So it’ll be at the 8
property line, we’ll have to measure. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: At ground level? 11
12
Kelly Cha: At ground level. 13
14
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. And one, hopefully the last question about automobile 15
service stations and EV charging stations. Looking at the language in the code for automobile 16
service stations, it still seems pretty gasoline focused. So do you think that’s broad enough to 17
include what we expect EV charging stations to become? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: So we don’t have any definitions that basically specifically refers to EV. Staff had 1
consulted with the current Planning staff, so we have asked that if there is a new station for EV 2
charging similar to gas station, we would actually put that under automobile service station 3
even though the definition basically primarily covers the gas only. So that’s why we have 4
changed the term to automobile service station. 5
6
Jennifer Armer: So through the Chair, I will just jump and clarify that that is the term that would 7
include EV service stations, EV... 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Oh, yeah, I... 10
11
Jennifer Armer: ...[inaudible 38:10]. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: ...think the change to use the defined term is absolutely the right one. I’m 14
just curious as to whether the term needs to be modified, the definition needs to be modified 15
already. We won’t have EV charging stations that are really analogous to current gas stations 16
for a while yet but as the technology permits fast charging, we likely will, so. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: And what I would say from a staff perspective is that there are cases where 19
things change faster than our code can. But the work of staff is to make sure that we fit into the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
category that is closest to what’s occurring and then we work to keep a list of those sorts of 1
things for the next time we have an opportunity for our comprehensive code update. But at this 2
point, we’re comfortable using that term for this particular instance. 3
4
Commissioner Akin: All right. Thank you. Do you want to make all the questions for dark skies 5
first and then come back to bird-friendly design or do you want to cover them both now? 6
7
Chair Chang: Just go ahead and cover them now. 8
9
Commissioner Akin: All right. Let’s see. You’ve already clarified a number of my questions about 10
this. Packet Page 30, D3, this is the threat factor removal. So I was just curious as to whether 11
there is any treatment that we now miss because we’ve removed the threat factor criterion. 12
13
Kelly Cha: There may be actually a lot more treatments that we have missed with this particular 14
section but we do have an alternative compliance language that basically allows – if somebody 15
wants to come up with different option than just the treated glass or exterior feature per se, 16
then they can actually [hire a – although it’s 40:13] additional things but they could propose an 17
alternative ways to at least comply with the purpose and intent of the ordinance and come up 18
with that particular treatment. And it would have to be actually reviewed at the same time 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
when the application is reviewed and requirement would be to hire either qualified biologist or 1
ornithologist who’s familiar with the bird-friendly design. 2
3
Commissioner Akin: Thank you. And my last question I think is a lead in to more discussion that 4
will have to happen during the comments section. But also on Packet Page 30, now that the 5
bird-friendly treatment location has been removed, is your understanding that treatment is 6
required on the entire building elevation? 7
8
Kelly Cha: That’s correct. The entire building and then within the bird sensitive area everywhere 9
basically but for the buildings outside of the bird-sensitive area, anything that’s larger than 24 10
square feet, that’s 24 square feet or larger and unbroken only. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: And if I may jump in. Just for clarification, when we talk about the entire 13
elevation of a building, we are talking about the fenestration, so the windows and glass doors 14
or whatever see-through material, not the solid walls. 15
16
Commissioner Akin: Yes. And including all of the other bird-hazard installations as well? 17
18
Jennifer Armer: Correct, including bus stops or other facilities that include a see-through 19
surface that is more than the 24 square feet. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Understood. But again I expect there’ll be more comments on that 2
later. All right. Thank you. That’s all for me. 3
4
Chair Chang: Commissioner Suma? 5
6
Commissioner Summa: I had a question about how we measure foot candles. 7
8
Kelly Cha: Well the foot candle is basically the measurement that we generally use. It’s basically 9
one candle light against one square foot of surface. That’s the one foot candle measurement. 10
And when it is submitted to us for a project, a lighting plan is submitted along with other 11
architectural plans and they provide numbers within a square foot, so you see a bunch of 12
numbers all within the property and you’ll be able to identify what the foot candle levels are. 13
14
Commissioner Summa: I guess I should have asked it a little differently. How would we know 15
with regards to the trespassing light escaping from one property’s boundaries, how would we 16
measure that in the field or how would we evaluate it? 17
18
Kelly Cha: So the lighting requirements are – lighting ordinances apply to only new construction 19
and substantial remodel. So I guess on the field, it’ll be a little bit difficult and the inspector 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
would have to go out and confirm. But we would actually have the plan submitted that’s 1
showing that they’re complying with the specification of the lighting submitted to us and the 2
lighting plan showing the foot candle information as well that’s confirming that they’re in 3
compliance with the lighting requirements. If somebody complains, they would have to go out 4
and inspect. That would be something I would have to check with the inspectors and see if 5
there’s any particular way. 6
7
Female: [Inaudible 44:06]. 8
9
Jennifer Armer: I’ll jump in on that. So there are tools available for light monitor to go and 10
check light levels. And so if it were a code enforcement situation, then that is probably what 11
would need to be done. But the hope, by preparing the regulations in this way, is that it will 12
mostly be at the plan review stage that they have to show we are going to be installing this light 13
in this location, shielded in this way and this is how the light is going to shine, so that we avoid 14
those code enforcement situations. That’s the goal. 15
16
Commissioner Summa: Okay. So there’s some kind of equipment that can go out and measure 17
it or is it just an ob-... 18
19
Jennifer Armer: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: -serva-, okay. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: There are... 4
5
Commissioner Summa: [Inaudible 44:54]. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: ...light meters that are available. 8
9
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Thank you very much. That’s it. 10
11
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 12
13
Commissioner Lu: Thank you. I just want to confirm a couple clarifying questions on 14
applicability. So firstly, on Packet Page 21, we talk about how for the purposes of this section 15
except otherwise provided by section 18.40.25034A below, we should comply. Can you confirm 16
which sections exactly 34A refer to here? 17
18
Kelly Cha: Yeah. Sorry. That was a spelling error. It’s actually 18.40.250E4A, so that’s under 19
lighting control section so... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Wait. E4A. Okay. Lighting control [inaudible 45:47]. 2
3
Kelly Cha: Page 22 on the bottom of the page, lighting control and lighting curfew section. 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Okay. I’ll need one second to digest that. 6
7
Kelly Cha: Okay. 8
9
Commissioner Lu: But thank you for clarifying that and I think there’s at least one other 10
reference to the string lighting where the section subsection number had a typo in it as well. 11
And so just, I guess, confirming my understanding of applicability, because of how we’ve 12
updated the ordinance, the reference that seasonal lighting from October 15 to January 15 13
would be exempt is kind of redundant and not needed anymore because seasonal lighting 14
would potentially be by definition not be associated with new construction or major remodel, 15
right? I just want to confirm if that line still belongs or if that’s kind of a moot point now. 16
17
Jennifer Armer: It’s our opinion that that is still a helpful information to have in there, basically 18
clarifying that seasonal lighting does not need to be, for example, kept to the light level 19
restrictions for string lighting because there are regulations for that, for string lighting even 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
though you know you could set up some string lighting without requiring a building permit or 1
substantial remodel. So the goal is to have regulations in here. The main implementation of 2
them will be when we do have a permit to review but it still is important to set out those 3
expectations for the lighting levels that the City wants to see. 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Okay. I can come back to this in comments once I’ve kind of reread the 6
reference to E4 and just confirm the applicability all adds up. I had another question about 7
applicability on bird safety. So can we just confirm how we define an unbroken 24-square-foot 8
surface? There was some discussion of this last time about how an accordion door, for example, 9
be counted as like multiple separate panes. But I could imagine a glass curtain wall, which is all 10
glass, but each individual pane is less than 24 square feet. So how do we make those 11
distinctions? 12
13
Kelly Cha: So it would have to have a visible separation with like divided lights or those 14
accordion doors [or 48:26] accordion doors would have those actual physical division of the 15
glass or fenestration. So those kind of things are needed to make sure that it’s considered 16
unbroken. So it will have to make – so even if – let’s see how I should – so for accordion doors, 17
definitely they’re – as long as each pane is not all together, so the doors when they’re closed, 18
it’s all together maybe bigger than 24 square feet for sure but those are divided with the frames 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
in between so that it is not considered unbroken because the glass curtains are usually not 1
really – it doesn’t have a physical separation of those doors most of the time. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: So another way to state it is if you had multiple panes of glass that were right 6
up next to each other and didn’t have a physical frame or something dividing them, then we 7
would consider that a single uninterrupted. But if you have a physical frame around each of the 8
segments of that door and each segment is less than the 24 square feet, then that would not 9
require the special treatment because each of the segments is less. But if there wasn’t a frame, 10
if there was a way to do it where it ended up being this when extended a full area with no 11
dividing frames, then we would consider that a larger glass and, therefore, would require those 12
treatments. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Okay. And I guess I can imagine glass curtain walls that I’ve seen where the 15
framing is like an inch between 2 large panes of glass. That would still count as 2 separate 16
panes of glass to be measured separately in terms of sizes? 17
18
Jennifer Armer: That is correct, similar to divided light windows... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: Okay. [Inaudible 50:31]. 1
2
Jennifer Armer: ...that can be that thin. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. Thank you. And those are my clarifying questions. 5
6
Chair Chang: Seeing no lights, I’m going to... 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 50:40]... 9
10
Chair Chang: Ooh. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: ...[inaudible 50:42]. 13
14
Female: [Inaudible 50:43]. 15
16
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton? 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: Does it work? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: I think one of the lights is broken, so maybe use the one... 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you, Chair. 3
4
Chair Chang: Yep. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: I have a question on your presentation on Slide 3. I think I know 7
what you mean but I’m going to go ahead and ask the question. Are you asking this body to 8
repeal or recommend repealing lighting standards? 9
10
Kelly Cha: That’s correct. 11
12
Female: Could we see Slide 3? 13
14
Jennifer Armer: When we are making enough changes, [then 51:19] it is more straightforward 15
to just repeal and replace. That’s how [it sprays 51:24]. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: And so that’s a standard operating practice? 18
19
Jennifer Armer: Correct. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: That’s really good to know. I want to make sure we’re all clear on 2
that because that is a word that has caused us some angst in the past. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Okay. Yes. Sometimes the changes are minor enough that it’s just striking out 5
individual portions and replacing them with new language or other edits. But when it is 6
substantial enough, it is usually cleanest to just say we are repealing and replacing with this 7
new language even if it has some... 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Right. But that doesn’t mean... 10
11
Jennifer Armer: ...of the old language. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: And if we all vote for this, that doesn’t mean any of us wants to 14
repeal lighting standards. It means we want to im-... 15
16
Jennifer Armer: No. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton:...-prove them and update them according to whatever [inaudible 19
52:03]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: Correct. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Great. Thank you. 4
5
Chair Chang: So seeing no other lights, now I will ask my questions. So on Packet Page 21 under 6
E1, which is shielding, and B – E1B, it talks about light fixture shall be located at least 3 feet 7
from curbs and 10 feet from driveways or intersections. And so I just wanted to make sure that 8
I understand what’s going on here because if I think about my driveway, at the end of the 9
driveway is my garage and there’s a wall there with a sconce on the wall. That is not 10 feet 10
from my driveway because my driveway goes right to that light fixture but it is not attached to 11
the ground. So I guess I’m just trying to understand what the intention is for E1B because I 12
imagine that I should be allowed to have the light next to my garage on the wall. 13
14
Kelly Cha: I think that’s correct. So the intention was to make sure that the vision triangle, what 15
we usually refer to, is kept there as well so that there is no safety issues with the lighting 16
proposed closer to the driveways or the public right of way. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: And so you could consider modified language so that it is intersections of 1
streets or intersections of driveways with streets. We could work on some language there. It is 2
intended to be where the driveway comes off your property and connects with the street. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. I’m similarly confused where it says 3 feet from curbs. I think – that is also 5
supposed to be relating to the site triangle, is that correct? Okay. Then we can worry about that 6
later. I just wanted to make sure I understand. Then the other question I have, which was 7
answered in premeeting but I just wanted to make sure that the public understands this as well, 8
is on Packet Page 20 where B8 under seasonal lighting specifies that string lighting is not 9
considered holiday or seasonal lighting. And my understanding of that is that string lighting that 10
is not part of the seasonal lighting installation would not be considered holiday lighting but 11
obviously there’s a lot of holiday lighting that does include string lighting. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: That is correct. And in response to the question, since you were able to provide 14
that to us ahead of time, we do have some language that we can share during the discussion 15
portion of tonight’s meeting if you would like to consider that modification to provide 16
clarification. 17
18
Chair Chang: Thank you. I think that is it. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
PUBLIC COMMENTS 1
Chair Chang: So now we move on to public comment. Miss Dao, do we have speaker cards? 2
3
Veronica Dao: Yes. I have 3 speaker cards – 2 individual and 1 group. First is from... 4
5
Chair Chang: And then... 6
7
Veronica Dao: ...Dashiell... 8
9
Chair Chang: Just a minute. Before – I just want to make sure – see how many we have. What 10
about online? Do we have anybody? 11
12
Veronica Dao: I see no raised hands online but I believe some are ceding their time for the 13
group speak. Oh, one raised hand on Zoom. 14
15
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Thanks. 16
17
Veronica Dao: So first is Dashiell Leeds. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Dashiell Leeds: Hello, Chair Chang and Commissioners. My name is Dashiell Leeds. I’m the 1
Conservation Coordinator for the Sierra Club Loma Prieta Chapter. I’d like to start off by 2
thanking you so much for recommending to look into the 2,700 kelvin requirement. Thank you 3
to staff for including it. We’re really glad to see that. I just want to talk to you all about 2 4
recommendations that we have for the ordinance. We did email this to you in a letter. The first 5
is to reinstate applicability for new and replacement fixtures. I think removing this from the 6
ordinance basically renders it highly ineffective. If this takes place only at the time of 7
permitting, then there’s nothing stopping folks from just taking a already built building and 8
replacing their lighting system. I think a dark sky ordinance really takes effect over time as 9
fixtures are replaced when they become compliant with the ordinance requirements. So leaving 10
that out really leaves out the effectiveness over time of an ordinance like this. 11
12
Commissioner Lu, you brought up some multifamily buildings that have old wiring systems as 13
an example of buildings that may have difficulty complying with the requirement to replace 14
lighting with compliant lighting, which is why we recommend including or recommending the 15
inclusion of a hardship exemption. So for structures or property owners that cannot comply 16
with the ordinance due to technical infeasibility or cost infeasibility, there could be an 17
opportunity to apply to Planning, for example, and provided they try to comply with the 18
ordinance as much as feasible. We think it makes sense for that hardship exemption to cover 19
the instances in which compliance could be difficult while still keeping that requirement for 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
new and replacement lighting that really does make this ordinance effective. So please consider 1
that hardship exemption but then reinstating the applicability for new and existing fixtures. The 2
second point is consider prohibiting light trespass entirely rather than establishing the 3
threshold 0.5 foot candle. Point 5 foot candle can be kind of arbitrary in the mind of a 4
homeowner. 5
6
We don’t have the tools to necessarily measure that. So if you do have requirements for new 7
and existing lighting and just any requirements at all for lighting, it can be kind of arbitrary and I 8
[would 58:15] suggest taking the approach that Brisbane took, which [just 58:17] says no light 9
trespass. It’s easy. It’s simple to understand. Anyone who’s installing a lighting system can look 10
at how their light is cast and they can determine with the naked eye whether or not you’re 11
trespassing into a property line. So I just recommend taking the Brisbane approach, prohibiting 12
light trespass entirely. The added benefit to that is that a 0.5 foot candle is still on average 13
brighter than the light of the full moon and can actually still be a nuisance for some folks. So 14
not only does it make it easier to understand, easier to enforce but you also remove the 15
potential for nuisance lighting. We do have a couple other recommendations but I’ll leave those 16
to the letter. Thank you so much for your time. 17
18
Chair Chang: Thank you. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Veronica Dao: Next is Julianne Wang. 1
2
Julianne Wang: Can I have the slide, please? Okay. Good evening, Chair Chang and 3
Commissioners. I’m Jullianne Wang with Santa Clara Valley Bird Alliance. I’m here today to 4
address the importance of preventing bird collisions. Bird collisions with human-made 5
structures are a leading cause of bird deaths. This issue is receiving increasing attention. This 6
picture won the overall winner and bird photographer of the year this 2024 showing over 4,000 7
birds [that 59:49] colliding with windows in Toronto. The photographer, Homonylo, is a 8
conservation photojournalist working with Fatal Light Awareness Program where she and 9
volunteers save window collision survivors in Toronto. Sadly, most of the birds they find are 10
already dead. So they collected the dead birds and created this impactful display at the end of 11
the year to honor the lives lost and increase public awareness. 12
13
Birds often mistake reflected surfaces for open sky or habitat or see through this transparent 14
glass and try to fly through it which leads to fatal collisions. Windows [inaudible 1:00:41] 15
outdoor life are especially dangerous traps [to them 1:00:45]. Birds migrate at night using the 16
stars to guide them so they may be attracted by the city lights. When they landed and try to 17
take flight again, they collide with the windows, often with fatal force. Unfortunately, such 18
building and lighting designs are still legal in our city. A new research study published this 19
August uncovered alarming evidence that building collisions are killing over 1 billion birds 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
annually in the United States. People are not aware of them because they can’t see them. This 1
photo is really alarming. I’m excited to see that Palo Alto is updating its light ordinance and 2
considering a bird-friendly design ordinance and I hope it will make a significant step toward 3
protecting migratory birds. Thank you. 4
5
Chair Chang: Thank you. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Next is from Shani Kleinhaus who’s a group speaker on behalf of Diane M., Lyn 8
H., Alan K., Audrey K., and Tristan R. 9
10
Shani Kleinhaus: Thank you so much. Good evening. I’m Shani Kleinhaus. I’m a resident and the 11
environmental advocate for the Santa Clara Valley Bird Alliance and a commissioner on the 12
Parks and Rec Commission but do not speak for the Parks and Rec Commission. We submitted 13
the letter with quite a few recommendations. Some are pretty small and just trying to improve 14
some of the recommendations. And I have to say I really thank staff for what they’ve done. 15
They’ve put so much work into this. It’s really admirable. But as always, we still have some 16
comments. So the first one, we saw a couple of misses in general. One is that there are two 17
main reasons why birds collide in windows. The primary one is that they see the reflection of 18
trees, the sky, water features. Reflections are what kills most birds and it’s not addressed here 19
at all. And so most cities that try to address reflection do it through the percentage of glass that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
is not treated and this is something that we need to bring and so we’ll make some suggestions 1
and I’ll bring that in a second. But we do need to address both the see-through situations where 2
bird trying to get through the glass and the reflection of the glass where they’re flying to 3
something that is not really real. 4
5
The second one is that it seems to treat homes in residential and commercial industrial 6
buildings in the same way and we feel that it’s not justifiable to do that, that we really need to 7
look at them differently. Partially it’s because a lot of the commercial buildings have a lot, a lot, 8
a lot of glass and homes usually do not have more than about 40 percent per façade. So I’ll get 9
to that in a minute as well. How do we not impede housing, which we all want to continue to 10
support, and yet make everything better for the birds? So I’ll get to my comments, which I’m 11
sure you all have. The first one was to add a bird-sensitive area to add areas of natural streams 12
because that’s where the birds [are 1:04:42]. That’s where they [hit 1:04:43]. Natural streams 13
are really important to birds. All life depends on water. That’s where the water is. That’s where 14
life is for all critters. They use it to migrate along and outside of the creeks. So that was the first 15
one, is to add the areas along the natural streams between 101 and Foothills Expressway. The 16
second one was about bird-hazard installations. 17
18
The staff recommendation looks only at panels that are larger than 24 square feet but there are 19
many types of installations that are – they’re not necessarily that big but they still kill birds and 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
they’re not necessary. I mean a person needs to have a wall and they needs to have a glass but 1
the story which I told you once before about the bus stations, they didn’t need to build them 2
the way they did. They could’ve built metal like VTA does everywhere else and not have a type 3
of structure that is dangerous and there’s a lot of other ones. So in the recommendation for 4
bird-hazard installation, we recommended to separate those little structures, all kinds of 5
structures that are not necessarily important [and that you 1:06:02] could use a different design 6
or different material from actual windows in people’s homes, which we kept the 7
recommendations for the 24 square feet. Didn’t change that one. So in the different bird 8
hazards and treatment, we added some things that are just – after talking to people from the 9
glass industry as well as other people who work on bird collision, we came up with a longer list. 10
One of the things about threat factors, since someone asked about that, I would like to say that 11
if that is an option as an alternative, then it should be included. 12
13
And it should be no more than 25 and no averaging because the average is what kills the birds, 14
so no more than 25 is a fair bird threat factor to use. So the main thing that I’ll get that back to 15
is the reflectivity issue. Because reflective glass kills birds, every bird-safe design ordinance 16
addresses it by allowing a certain amount of the glass not to be retrofitted for birds or not to be 17
applied. So here is the recommendations after we – I tried to write it but I don’t think I made it 18
really great. I was still working on it. So here are the recommendations: For all new 19
development anywhere, including new and replacement fenestrations, in new development, in 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
major models and any kind of replacement of fenestration, include – start with everything 1
needs to be retrofitted and then let’s see what kind of exemptions or exceptions can be done. 2
So the first thing is I would say for all new development in the bird-sensitive areas and all new 3
commercial, industrial, office development in the city, all of that needs to be retrofitted but I 4
would give it all 10 percent that people can – that the developer or the home – that can be 5
used that is not treated as long as it’s not a bird hazard. 6
7
This is something that is not unusual. Most cities apply that to office [and in natural 1:08:48] 8
development. Cupertino applies that to homes in some areas. It allows somebody who just 9
wants to replace one little window in the bathroom to do it without having to go through a lot 10
of difficulties. So for all development that is industrial or homes in the bird-sensitive areas, 11
residential development, whatever kind it is, 10 percent that they can use. For residential areas 12
that are not in a bird [safety 1:19:25] area – and that’s most of the city – to address the 13
reflectivity, the recommendation we made was that no more than 40 percent of the façade can 14
be untreated glass. And the reason for that is that most homes don’t have more than 40 15
percent and even if they do, some of it has shutters and screens and it’s not very common to 16
have a lot more than that. And if it is, then put a screen or a shutter or something to tell the 17
birds that it’s there. And that’s how you address the reflectivity issue. And the last one is don’t 18
have any bird-hazard installations that are not retrofitted period. So that was the 19
recommendations in general. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
A few other things is that it’s an emerging field and eventually, soon there’ll be experts that 2
have training in bird-safe design so that should be the main thing, not just the biology. It’s not 3
taught in classes. So how do you learn this? So it needs a 5-year experience or certification, 4
which is coming. FLAP, that’s the organization that had the picture that Julianne showed, 5
they’re starting to prepare something like that. And where else? For historic buildings, please 6
don’t exempt new additions. I’ve seen additions at are all glass in some places. And about the 7
UV, I suggested adding it but I’m kind of regretting that. Don’t include UV. Doesn’t work. A lot 8
of birds don’t see it. Also, UV is only visible to the birds when the sun is really bright, which is 9
not where they’re most active. They’re active in the morning and the evening. So UV is not the 10
best. But if somebody does bring that is an alternative, then if it’s not prohibited, then what I 11
wrote in this document would be the requirements for UV. Anyway, I hope you can – I still have 12
like 45 seconds, so I’ll just say again that hopefully you’ll start with everything needs to be 13
retrofitted and then give exemptions to housing and residential [in the main – of up to of 14
1:11:47] 40 percent in the main area and 10 percent elsewhere. Thank you. 15
16
Chair Chang: Thank you. There’s no more – oh, wait. There’s one more public comment on 17
Zoom. Is that correct... 18
19
Administrative Associate Veronica Dao: Cor-... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: ...[inaudible 1:12:03]? 2
3
Veronica Dao: ...-rect. We have one raised hand on Zoom from Cedric. 4
5
Cedric De La Beaujardiere: Hello. My name is Cedric De La Beaujardiere. I am concerned that 6
this Commission is sort of erring a little bit too much in favor of protecting homeowners and 7
not keeping in mind the protection of our environment and our natural brethren. I don’t see 8
why we would exclude all the urbanized areas of Palo Alto. That just doesn’t make sense to me. 9
I think at a minimum, we should do 300 feet from the creeks and 60 feet from the creeks – I 10
mean, have you ever seen a bird fly? Sixty feet is less than the width of my property and birds 11
are flipping back and forth great distances, much more than 60 feet. I don’t see why you would 12
want to limit it to 60 feet. I would go at least 300 feet and that would include my own house in 13
the urbanized area. If you want to keep it simple, then apply it to the whole city, not just the 14
waterways. There’s parks everywhere. There’s trees everywhere. And as Shani pointed out, 15
there’s enormous numbers of birds that are being killed every day by bird strikes. 16
17
And in terms of UV, there are some UV windows that work but they need to be a patterned UV, 18
not just one single block of UV coating, just a subtle patterning on the outside surface of the 19
glass. I don’t know if all birds can see it but at least many birds can see in the UV spectrum and 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
they’ve been used at some buildings at Stanford with enormous success in reducing the 1
number of bird collisions. So I would urge you to apply these regulations across the board. And 2
also this thing about 24-foot uninterrupted window, that’s crazy. That’s a huge window. If that’s 3
your threshold, then most windows are not going to fall into that. Most windows are going to 4
have some sort of divide or whatever that’s going to make it smaller than 24 feet so I think 5
that’s just insane. I think you need to really be looking at more [of 14:14:34] the majority of 6
glazing, at least the glazing that’s posing threats to birds’ collisions, [either 1:14:43] birds seeing 7
through it or reflecting and seeing sky and trees. It needs to be just across the board we need to 8
have these protections for the birds and support our feathered kin on this planet. Thanks very 9
much. 10
11
Chair Chang: Thank you. So I think that’s it for all public comments. So let’s bring it back to the 12
Commission for discussion. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: If I may through the Chair... 15
16
Chair Chang: [Yeah 1:15:16]. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: Sorry. Just a request that if any members of the Commission – or a 19
recommendation that if there are any questions of members of the public that we ask those 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
now before you close the public comment portion of the hearing just to check to see if anyone 1
had any questions for the members of the public who spoke. 2
3
Chair Chang: I don’t see any lights. Thank you. 4
5
Jennifer Armer: Thank you. 6
7
Chair Chang: If anybody would like to start us off with comments, please light it up. 8
9
Commissioner Summa: [First 1:15:48] a question for the chair. Are we doing dark skies first and 10
then bird... 11
12
Female: Bird-friendly. 13
14
Chair Chang: [Inaudible 1:15:55]. Thank you. I think that’s a good way to handle it. So why don’t 15
we as a Commission have a discussion about dark skies first just because it’s the first one in the 16
packet and then we can talk about bird-safety. That way we kind of keep all of our comments 17
relevant to what the next person is saying. Does that work for everybody? Everybody’s nodding. 18
Okay. So light it up. Commissioner Summa? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: Thank you very much. And I would like to start out by thanking staff for 1
coming back with this and also for working carefully with our local expert agencies. I think that 2
really, really helped us. So I think in general the dark skies ordinance as proposed is very good. I 3
would say that I agree with some of the few comments that were made by the representative 4
from the Sierra Club. And to go over those, the first one is to reinstate applicability, installation 5
of new outdoor lighting, replacement of existing lighting on Packet Page 21. So I think that 6
reinstating that and having a waiver process, a hardship exemption would be a good thing to 7
do. And I think that hardship exemption is really important here because there are going to be 8
some houses that have a very difficult time with this, some buildings. So I agree with that. And 9
as to the trespassing light from outdoor fixtures, I find it really compelling that 0.5 is the 10
brightness of the moon, although I’m not sure which cycle of the moon that is. The moon is 11
sometimes really bright and sometimes less bright. But I think that it’s compelling that if other 12
municipalities are reducing that to 0.1 that Palo Alto should too. I would note that in general 13
that our S/CAP along with all the other things that it wants us to do, goal 6 is about retaining 14
biodiversity and habitat. 15
16
And I have it up if anybody wants me to read it but I’m sure you don’t. So I think it’s really 17
important that we do this. I see these changes in these 2 sections of code or change and 18
addition to be consistent with Reach Codes and building to address environmental urgencies. 19
So I also think that having no trespass is a really easy thing to do because it doesn’t require as 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
much of staff time. But I would also be happy with point one since that’s an accepted standards 1
in other municipalities. And then I don’t think they mentioned this when they spoke but they 2
had another thing in their letter, which was the duration of motion sensor activated lighting 3
and I think 10 minutes is a really long time. I think 5 would probably be sufficient. And I would 4
say that the current standard for – the 0.5 is the current standard in our code for light trespass 5
and so it’s not really consistent with the purpose of this ordinance, which is to reduce light 6
pollution. It’s sort of keeping it the same. So that isn’t very compelling to me as an 7
improvement. So – oh, and then they made one more recommendation that was just to be 8
consistent in the use of the terms fixtures and luminaire, so I think that just makes it easy. So 9
those are my thoughts for now. 10
11
Chair Chang: Thank you, Commissioner Summa. Commissioner Akin? 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Thank you. I’d like to follow up on the light trespass question. The reason I 14
asked about how that was measured is if you’re measuring at the ground at the property line, 15
then we aren’t really establishing a good standard for what extends beyond the property line. It 16
could be 0.5 foot candles. It could be less. It could even be more depending on how the 17
luminaire is designed. So I suggest that probably a better approach would be to say that there is 18
zero light trespass beyond the property line, which should allow a measurement at any point 19
and make it clear what the threshold really is. Secondly, a bit more difficult question is 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
applicability when there are new luminaires installed. And the concern I have here is 1
understanding what the trigger event for this would be. So it seems pretty clear that if a 2
building permit has to be issued that that’s a good trigger event and we could require new 3
luminaires at that point and all the other requirements of the ordinance would apply. If there is 4
no such trigger event, then I don’t see how we can require any conformance with the new 5
standards. So some clarity there might be necessary. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: If that is a question... 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Oh... 10
11
Jennifer Armer: [No 1:22:35]. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: ...the question is could the ordinance be clarified in order make sure that 14
that’s understood [throat clearing] – excuse me – or is it simply something that I’m missing here 15
about when the requirement could be applied? 16
17
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for that question. No. I think you are understanding correctly and 18
the reason that the language is the way it is at the moment – and it could be expanded slightly 19
to apply to anything that would require a building permit. But you are correct that if someone 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
were to swap out a lighting fixture in a way that didn’t require a building permit or electrical 1
permit, there is not really an enforcement mechanism because, for example, code enforcement 2
would not necessarily have any evidence as to when that occurred whether it occurred prior to 3
the implementation of this ordinance or not. 4
5
Chair Chang: I’m not seeing other lights. So I’m going to chime in with my comments. So my 6
comments are actually pretty in line with the Sierra Club’s as well except that I saw them long 7
before the public comment was submitted. The first one was definitely in reaction to the light 8
trespass. It seems really difficult for me as a homeowner to – if I’m irritated by a light of my 9
neighbors, I don’t have the equipment to measure the 0.5 foot candle, so I think it’s just easier 10
if it’s zero. It makes it very clear what the expectation is and I think it’ll reduce the amount of 11
work that comes in when people complain. So that’s one. I was also wondering about the 12
applicability. Last time when we were discussing this at the PTC, we were talking about creating 13
an enforcement problem with the language that was changed and at the same time if we don’t 14
make this effective as of a certain date, it’s going to take us a very long time to achieve any 15
impact with respect to dark skies. 16
17
So it strikes me that part of this is education and I wondered what’s staff’s thinking with respect 18
to that, so in the same way that there’s water savings that we want and we can’t go inside 19
everybody’s house and make sure that their oldest fixtures are retrofitted. So what can we do 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
without creating an enforcement problem for us? And then my second observation is, for 1
example, with leaf blowers, the City has banned the gas leaf blowers and that is an 2
enforcement problem. So if dark skies are important to us, would it make sense to do as the 3
public commenter suggested and reinstate applicability with a certain date and a deadline? So 4
I’d love to hear staff’s thoughts on that because the enforcement issue was one that was 5
brought up by, I believe, Director Lait last time. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for that question. I think actually you have presented a very 8
interesting suggestion with the suggestion of outreach and education and that is something 9
that we work to do any time we have a new ordinance. So that would be a part of moving 10
forward, that we would make sure that there is informational handouts or information on our 11
website to try and make sure that homeowners are aware of these new regulations. But I do 12
think, as the Director stated last time, it is a concern to try and implement a requirement that 13
would apply – I mean maybe it’s not retroactive but would apply [when – to 1:27:07] houses 14
where they aren’t planning to make any changes. And so there would be an effective date of 15
the ordinance and it would apply as currently written to the types of building permits listed or 16
other projects that trigger these requirements. As I stated, it could be slightly expanded to any 17
permit associated with lighting replacement rather than just the substantial remodels. I believe 18
that’s what we currently have. So there is a little bit of room to expand it but it would be of 19
concern in terms of actually implementing it to try and apply it in instances where there is no 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
required permit, no requirement that they come into the City to make a change to the existing 1
light fixture. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. In that case, I definitely would be supportive of a change that 4
broadened the requirement to anything that required a building permit. In addition, I’m 5
wondering – the City Council tasked us with doing something to darken our skies. Once this 6
becomes effective, without an effective date, it’s going to take a very long time before we 7
actually make a dent in our darkness. So is there something that the PTC can do? It’s not 8
something necessarily in the ordinance but how do we alert the City Council to the need to do a 9
significant education effort. In other words, if we’re not going to be punitive about this, how do 10
we – or do we make it applicable to everything and then make a 5-year or 10-year effective 11
date and then do a huge education effort? I worry that without the applicability being spread to 12
the entire city, to everything in this city that nothing will ever happen. That’s my concern. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for those comments. And I think it is a valid concern to think 15
proactively about how we can make sure that these new regulations have as much of an effect 16
as possible. It is the type of thing where any time there is a new project coming through, this 17
will likely be a new condition of approval. Each planner or building tech will be reviewing these 18
projects to ensure it gets implemented. And then I think some outreach is going to be really 19
valuable. To your question about what the PTC can do, if in addition to any modifications to the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
ordinance you wish to also express an interest or support for specific additional outreach that 1
staff be directed to that, that that could be part of your recommendation to Council so that 2
when Council was adopting the ordinance they could also direct staff to ensure that there is 3
outreach as part of the implementation of the ordinance. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. And then I did want to quickly speak to 2 other things. I also 6
think that the 10 minutes for motion detector lighting is – 10 minutes before it returns to off is 7
too long. I think 5 minutes would be much more appropriate. My own lighting is set to 1 minute 8
and I find that annoying but 10 minutes would be a really long time to have something shining 9
into my window in the middle of the night. And then on definitions, there are 2 things that I 10
came across as I was reading it, both on Packet Page 21. So if you look at D2 on Packet Page 21, 11
it says illumination should be by low-intensity lamps in the last line of D2 and I don’t know what 12
the definition of low-intensity lamps is. 13
14
Kelly Cha: So that is a lighting guidelines. So that’s not a standard. So those are the guidelines 15
that we generally try to encourage people to without actually mandating those requirements. 16
So those low – am I – so this is under Section D lighting guidelines... 17
18
Chair Chang: Correct. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: ...right? 1
2
Chair Chang: Yeah. 3
4
Kelly Cha: So the guidelines are not a mandatory requirements but it’s something that staff 5
would like to encourage people to. So that’s sort of a direction given to applicants to consider. 6
And if there’s a way to change the design and if applicant is willing to, then we would probably 7
ask them to have the low – sorry... 8
9
Chair Chang: So there’s no objective standard there? 10
11
Kelly Cha: Yeah. It’s not required for the objective standards to be in the guidelines. It’s just a 12
guiding... 13
14
Female: [Language 1:32:15]. 15
16
Kelly Cha: ...language. Yeah. 17
18
Jennifer Armer: The objective standards are in other portions. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: Yeah. 1
2
Jennifer Armer: The guidelines are more intended to be kind of a goal or... 3
4
Chair Chang: So... 5
6
Jennifer Armer: ...purpose. 7
8
Chair Chang: ...in line with that though, if it’s a guideline, can we do a guideline on applicability, 9
which is for it to apply to everything? If that makes sense. It’s something for us to aspire to and 10
that way it’s in writing. So that’s just an idea. And then the other definition, a question I had is 11
with the second to last line on Packet Page 21 under I or little Roman numeral one, it’s a low-12
voltage landscape. Is low voltage a commonly understood definition or do we need to define it? 13
14
Kelly Cha: So if you go further into that particular standard, it says that no more than 10 watt [in 15
1:33:04]... 16
17
Chair Chang: Oh... 18
19
Kelly Cha: ...[inaudible 1:33:05]... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: ...I missed it... 2
3
Kelly Cha: ...[inaudible 1:33:05]... 4
5
Chair Chang: Thank you. 6
7
Kelly Cha: ...so we do have a more specific... 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. 10
11
Kelly Cha: ...information. 12
13
Chair Chang: Thank you. Appreciate it. Commissioner Reckdahl? 14
15
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I want to talk about the replacement lighting. I am afraid that if we don’t 16
enforce it for replacement lighting we’re not make much progress at all. I know most lights that 17
I’ve replaced I haven’t done with the building permit. I’ve just gone – needed a new fixture, go 18
to Home Depot, buy it, put it in. So isn’t there a lot of – whether you talk about energy efficient 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
fixtures within the house or energy efficient appliances or water savings, don’t a lot of those 1
apply whether they have a building permit or not? 2
3
Kelly Cha: So I would like to clarify when we refer to fixtures whether you’re referring to light 4
bulbs or actual entire system of lighting. 5
6
Vice Chair Reckdahl: The fixture that bolts on the wall. 7
8
Kelly Cha: Okay. So – sorry. Could you repeat the... 9
10
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. So how do we handle right now energy efficient appliances, energy 11
efficient bulbs within the house? There are certain bulbs, if you have a building permit – when 12
we remodeled, there was only certain fixtures we could legally put into our remodel and how is 13
the City code written for that? Is that just for remodels or is that just a blanket statement saying 14
that you only can have energy efficient light bulbs in your house? 15
16
Kelly Cha: I would have to follow up with the details but I believe that this is related to the 17
building permits that you have to submit as part of the remodel. So when you submit a remodel 18
application, you would have to include lighting information specifications and other things 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
where staff would go through with usually CALGreen or building code requirements. They go 1
through and review against those code requirements. 2
3
Jennifer Armer: And we do have... 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Albert’s on here. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: Yeah. We have Albert Yang. It looks like he’s joined us to add to this. 8
9
Albert Yang: Yeah. I just want to say for things like appliances, there are federal regulations that 10
govern how efficient those need to be and then at the local level, it is really only at the building 11
permit stage where we’d be looking at an energy budget for the project and needing to select 12
your building methods and appliances to [fit in that vision 1:35:41]. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: So is it that the only enforcement mechanism is the permit or is it that the 15
actual ordinance does not apply unless you’re pulling a permit? 16
17
Albert Yang: Yeah. So the local ordinance will not apply unless you’re pulling a permit. In terms 18
of efficiency of the products that you can buy, those are regulated by the federal and we don’t 19
have a say in that. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. I’m torn about this because I really think that if we don’t do the 2
replacement lighting we won’t make progress on it but it is awkward to have an ordinance that 3
you don’t have any mechanism for enforcing it. Let’s move on the other things. Ten minutes, I 4
agree, is too long. I think we should make that 5 minutes or even shorter. And I agree also no 5
tress beyond the property line is a much cleaner way of doing it as opposed to measuring it at 6
the base. So that’s all. 7
8
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin? 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Just a brief observation about the concept of low-voltage lighting. In my 11
experience as a former electrical engineer, conventionally low voltage means less than normal 12
AC line voltage, so less than 120 volts AC and in houses you may get a 24 or you may get a 12. 13
You may get something like that. But that’s what it means conventionally. 14
15
Female: Thank you. 16
17
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: I am similarly torn about the issues around enforceability and how we 1
measure the before-and-after state and how we make that a meaningful part of the ordinance. 2
I mean otherwise I would be comfortable with a hardship exemption if we had a very clear 3
criteria, like some kind of rewiring costs of a certain kind that exceed some X-thousand dollar 4
threshold – not something I can come up with now. I don’t know the rates of electricians. I 5
don’t know the vocabulary for what would just go into the cost of installing a system versus 6
what would go into the more nitty-gritty like rewiring the entire property that would be kind of 7
prohibitive. But notwithstanding the concerns about the enforceability at the first place, I think 8
a hardship exemption is not unreasonable. And I think there are a couple other changes that do 9
a lot of work, like the exceptions for lighting control applying to all building entrances, parking 10
areas, walkways and driveways. That covers, I think, a lot of the critical kind of safety uses of 11
just having lighting on your property. I did have a slightly different question about outdoor 12
lighting above ground floor on Packet Page 24. 13
14
So my understanding is that this would apply to outdoor businesses that are above the ground 15
floor, apply to rooftop gardens and apartment or condominium developments, things like that. 16
I think a couple of these points feel a little bit peculiar to me, that lights shall be dimmable to 17
control glare and placed on timers to turn off after 10 p.m. I’m not sure if that’s a existing code. 18
That’s on Packet Page 24 toward the bottom, 4B. Presumably there’s no curfew. People can be 19
on their rooftop gardens after 10 p.m., right? We wouldn’t force them to turn off the lights 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
while they’re enjoying their own property, for example, right? And similarly, I think ensuring 1
that there are no spillover impacts into windows or openings of adjacent properties, I think that 2
gets a little bit tricky. Like we’d want that – or I guess I’m not sure how that requirement for 3
there to be no spillover matches the kind of section below about not exceeding 0.5 foot candles 4
beyond the perimeter or other sections that also talk about life trespass. So I think getting 5
those points to feel – or those points just don’t quite make sense to me right now. And if 6
there’s any comment or explanation, I would appreciate that but otherwise I would just note 7
that these don’t feel right to me. 8
9
Kelly Cha: Thanks for the comments. I think the last comments – [or 1:40:30] about the Section 10
C and D, we can probably combine them together to make sure that it doesn’t conflict with 11
each other. And with the comments we have been receiving from the other PTC members, we 12
can change that so that it’s not – there’s no trespass basically. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Okay. And I’m also comfortable with that. So just to revisit that point, no 15
trespass is – do we generally feel is a practical standard with the kind of shielding and other 16
requirements we’re applying? Can we realistically [get s- 1:41:14]... 17
18
Kelly Cha: So – right. Sorry. Thanks. The staff point of having 0.5 foot candle was to kind of 19
provide some practicality in a way because we do have shielding that basically allows no up- 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
lighting, so that’s taken care of. But even if we say no light trespass and it might seem like it’s 1
very easy to do so, the light trespass is something that is difficult to measure without any 2
devices. So there may be some light trespass even though we say that there’s no light. So we’re 3
just providing some flexibility there to cover those instances. 4
5
Rafael Rius: Sorry. If I may, on the question about the light trespass beyond like a certain 6
threshold, like a property line, so when we were developing the standard, one concern we had 7
was safety because if you’re trying to illuminate part of your property that may be on the 8
property line, then to have no trespass beyond the property line can be difficult if you’re trying 9
to illuminate something that’s on the property line. So that was sort of the rationale – if it’s 10
useful. So for example, if you had maybe some sort of like planters that were in sort of an area 11
that is being used near the property line, if you had to make sure that there was no light that 12
passed the point of the property line, there could be a scenario where it’s not possible to 13
adequately illuminate some object that in the dark you may sort of trip over or could present 14
sort of an issue from that perspective. So I just wanted to kind of offer that as it relates to that 15
question and some of the questions or consideration of sort of that threshold, if that’s helpful. 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I have a question about fences. So would a fence be considered shielding? 18
So if the light from my house goes down and hits the fence and the fence is on the property 19
line, would that be legal or illegal? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: The fence would stop trespass onto the neighbor’s property but it wouldn’t 2
count as the shielding that’s described. 3
4
Rafael Rius: Yeah. The... 5
6
Jennifer Armer: Go ahead. 7
8
Rafael Rius: The issue with that sometimes from our perspective, it’s similar to sort of like if you 9
use landscaping to obscure something visually. If the fence were to be removed, then the light 10
wouldn’t have something that would stop it. So if there was an existing fence that was on a 11
neighbor’s property line and you put up a light fixture and their fence is shielding the light from 12
your light fixture, then that doesn’t really necessarily create a long-term shielding solution 13
under any scenario along the property line. So I think we just have to be careful about how 14
we’re looking at a separate structure as the shielding device for lighting standards. 15
16
Kelly Cha: Yeah. To just supplement, we have a definition of fully shielded basically describing 17
light fixture to be fully shielded so the structure shielding probably won’t count as a fully 18
shielded or shielded lighting. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton? 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: I just want to throw a scenario in here because I really like 3
Commissioner Reckdahl’s question. I have a wonderful neighbor who lives in the property 4
behind mine and we have a fence in between and it’s a full-size fence and their lighting is 5
pointed directly out so that they can see their whole backyard but it goes straight into our 6
property and I’m sure if we can see it, I’m sure birds can see it. So I want to say there’s 7
definitely some practical scenarios, which with all well intentions people – the fence is just not 8
enough. 9
10
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: Back to Number C3 on Packet Page 21 and the discussion about 13
enforcement and difficulty, [this – the 1:45:48 ] applying a lighting standards to all lighting 14
across the city is not inconsistent with what we have now. And if you look at our existing Code C 15
requirements, there are 8 very similar – although staff has updated this to reflect some new 16
technology – there are very similar requirements that just – it wasn’t enforced unless it’s a 17
problem. But if you don’t have it as a requirement citywide, it’s not enforceable when it is a 18
problem. I don’t think applying this citywide is a deviation from what we do now. Staff has just 19
updated it to reflect technology. And I don’t know – I have my municipal code up but it’s – I can 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
read it to you guys but it’s 8 standards that currently are there – requirements I mean – that are 1
currently there, so if you do have a problem with lighting from another source, you have these 2
to protect you. So we’re sort of updating our lighting standards, which is the same as 3
requirement, I guess, although... 4
5
Female: [Inaudible 1:47:03]... 6
7
Commissioner Summa: ...I think... 8
9
Female: ...[put it in ] [inaudible 1:47:03]. 10
11
Commissioner Summa: ...requirement is a stronger word slightly, not the guidelines just the 12
lighting standards. I mean that’s what we do now, so I don’t see it as being an odd concept to 13
say hey, look, if you’re going to place your lighting – we’re not requiring people to replace their 14
lighting. We’re saying if you want to replace it, you have to follow the new requirements. I 15
don’t think that’s unusual. It is all things like that have to be enforced by code enforcement if 16
they become an issue because obviously the City can’t go around and look at everybody’s light 17
fixture if they decide for any reason to change it. So I don’t think it’s any different. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: So thanks for the comments and [inaudible 1:47:56] checking the existing 1
regulations. So what staff is trying to do is to make it clear when the lighting actually applies. 2
The current lighting section actually is a little bit silent on when these are applied. So with the 3
updated ordinance language, we’re trying to make sure that applicability is clearly stated in the 4
ordinance so that there is no confusion between staff and obviously the community. They 5
might interpret that differently. Then there may be some code enforcement questions and 6
issues. So with the proposed language, we’re trying to clarify. And as part of the PTC discussion, 7
if the Commission would like to add the replacement of existing fixture or installing a new – 8
[that 1:48:52] reinstating the particular removed provision under the applicability is a preferred 9
approach, then that’s definitely something that the Commission can make a modification to the 10
recommendation. 11
12
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Thank you for that. 13
14
Chair Chang: I don’t see other lights. And because I’m worried that if we go on to talk about bird 15
safety, then we’re going to forget everything that we discussed on lighting, so I was going to 16
suggest that perhaps we make a motion specifically relating to the dark skies piece of the 17
ordinance. So I don’t see other lights. Is there somebody who would like to put forward a 18
motion? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Female: [Inaudible 1:49:36]. 1
2
Female: [I guess 1:49:37] I can do it. Yeah. Okay. Thank. 3
4
Commissioner Summa: So let me look at something here. [Inaudible 1:49:47]. I didn’t prepare a 5
motion but I guess I would move the staff’s recommendation for a new draft ordinance with 3 6
key changes. One is to reinstate the C3 with the lighting standards. Number 2... 7
8
Chair Chang: I’m sorry. Commissioners, do you mean reinstate C3 under applicability on Packet 9
Page 21? 10
11
Commissioner Summa: [Wait 1:50:36]. Sorry. What did you say? 12
13
Chair Chang: Reinstate C3 under Packet Page 21? 14
15
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 16
17
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: And then the second recommendation would be to change 1) shielding 1
on Packet Page 21 to either no trespassing or 0.1 from 0.5 and... 2
3
Female: [Mm-hm 1:51:13]? 4
5
Male: Beyond the property [line 1:51:15]? 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Beyond the property line. Yeah. And then the third one would be to 8
reduce the time of a lighting triggered by a motion sensor to 5 minutes from 10 minutes and to 9
consider the clarifications of definitions included in the letter from the Sierra Club. 10
11
Chair Chang: I’ll second that but then I have a question. Oh, yeah. Commissioner Lu? 12
13
Commissioner Lu: I have a few things to shout out and let me know if you’d be open to 14
potential amendments here. Just for the sake of thoroughness, would we also want to 15
recommend to City Council some follow-on work to work on education? And also I’ll just pitch a 16
new concept out here. We talked about it last time, also dark sky requirements for indoor 17
commercial lighting, like the many buildings that have their lights on all night, so if we could 18
forward a recommendation to City Council on that, I think we would – that seems friendly – 19
okay. Also for staff to consider a hardship exemption for existing... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. I forgot to add that. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: And maybe this is too granular for us to worry about but the outdoor space 4
above ground floor section, I think needs substantial reworking. Though I’m sure we can 5
probably just come up with something reasonable, like the hard curfew at 10 p.m., is like a new 6
concept that we don’t want to introduce through the light ordinance for outdoor spaces. And 7
then there would also be some clarification on string lighting and some internal cleanup on 8
numbering throughout this section. I don’t know if those need to be the emotion at all but I’ll 9
just mention that now so that we don’t forget about it. So a bit of a grab bag of issues but the 10
main things are the hardship exemption, community outreach, discussion of indoor commercial 11
lighting and the outdoor lighting section would be... 12
13
Commissioner Summa: Thank you for reminding me about hardship waiver. And then I’m happy 14
to accept as an amendment some concept about education and also indoor lighting, although I 15
believe there’s something about this. But indoor lighting especially in commercial buildings at 16
night can really be unreasonably bright... 17
18
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: ...so that was a good catch. I don’t feel that we’ve had enough 1
discussion about Number 4 on Packet Page 24, which is outdoor space ground floor, to add that 2
into the motion. I would let you pursue a separate motion about that. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 5
6
Female: [But the 1:54:32] second has to... 7
8
Commissioner Lu: But the staff recognizes some need for clean-up of 4C and 4D’s, like basically 9
contradict, I think. 4B introduces a new concept of basically requiring lights off in above ground 10
outdoor spaces after 10 p.m., [which] [inaudible 1:54:49]. 11
12
Chair Chang: Just to – so a process check on this. So we have a motion on the table with a 13
second and then certain... 14
15
Female: Amendments. 16
17
Chair Chang: ...pieces that were amended and I think where we are – [and then 1:55:04] I need 18
to accept [that as 1:55:06] amendments also. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Female: Yeah. 1
2
Chair Chang: And then I think just to keep things clean, we’ll go back and address Packet Page 3
24. Item Number 4, I think is too much to stick into this... 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. 6
7
Chair Chang: ...if that’s okay. 8
9
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 10
11
Chair Chang: All right. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: That is correct. Thank you for checking in on process. We also – so we want to 14
make sure that it is clearly stated what the friendly amendments were or which portions of 15
them were accepted, that they were accepted both by the maker of the motion and the 16
seconder as well as – and it may be that restating the motion with those amendments may be 17
the cleanest... 18
19
Female: Yeah. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: ...way to do it. Also staff would request that the change to zero or 0.1 trespass 2
be on the property line, that one or the other of those be chosen... 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. 5
6
Jennifer Armer: ...as part... 7
8
Chair Chang: So let’s... 9
10
Jennifer Armer: ...of the motion. 11
12
Chair Chang: ...restate the motion please, Commissioner Summa, or do you want me to try to 13
restate it? 14
15
Commissioner Summa: Yes. Because I... 16
17
Chair Chang: Okay. 18
19
Commissioner Summa: ...I couldn’t really write it down since I was just making it up. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I’m going to try and restate the motion that I think I seconded, which is to move 2
the staff-recommended ordinance for lighting with the following changes: To reinstate Number 3
C3... 4
5
Female: Yes. 6
7
Chair Chang: ...on Packet Page 21, second with – to reinstate C3 on Packet Page 21 with the 8
addition of a hardship exception. Second, to change the light trespass to 0.1. Is that right? Is 9
that what you said, Commissioner Summa? 10
11
Commissioner Summa: I said either zero or 0.1 but staff has [just let 1:57:04]... 12
13
Chair Chang: I’m going to go with 0.1 I think. 14
15
Commissioner Summa: That’s fine. 16
17
Female: Okay. 18
19
Female: Yeah. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: We’re going to pick 0.1 because of staff’s concern to allow a little bit of flexibility. 2
So to change it from 0.5 to 0.1 foot candles everywhere it’s stated throughout the ordinance. 3
Third, to change the time limit on motion-sensored lights that will automatically turn off from 4
10 minutes down to 5 minutes. Four, to examine the definitions – to consider the definition 5
comments that were given by the Sierra Club. And then 5, to recommend to Council that 6
further outreach be done in order to educate the public as well as to recommend to Council 7
that we take a look at, in the future at some point, indoor commercial light as it regards dark 8
skies. 9
10
Female: We got the hardship. 11
12
Male: [We 1:58:21] did. 13
14
Chair Chang: We got the hardship exemption, right? 15
16
Female: Yes. 17
18
Male: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Male: [Inaudible 1:58:24]. 1
2
Female: Yes. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Yes but without any specificity, so we can work on that but if there’s any 5
direction that the PTC would like to include in that, that would be helpful. 6
7
Kelly Cha: It’s the findings basically that we would have to include as part of that exception, 8
hardship exceptions. We know that we can’t just make it on the fly but if you have any direction 9
on what types of findings we should consider, that would be helpful as well. 10
11
Jennifer Armer: And then that could be provided to council for consideration, whether they 12
want to have an exception provision, a hardship exception. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Certainly if there’s research into what other communities have done for 15
hardship, that might be a good sample point for the Council to consider but also any 16
recommendations that you would have for hardships. 17
18
Chair Chang: I think the thought behind it was that we didn’t want it to be financially 19
burdensome. But beyond that, we don’t know what is considered financially burdensome. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: All right. Thank you. We can take that recommendation and provide to Council 2
something to consider. 3
4
Commissioner Summa: So I would add that it would be financial technically infeasible or 5
actually inconsistent with a historic structure. Those are some of the reasons I can think of. 6
7
Chair Chang: That all makes sense but I think at this point we’re giving direction rather than 8
adding it to the motion. Is that correct? 9
10
Female: Yes. 11
12
Jennifer Armer: That is correct. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. 15
16
Jennifer Armer: And... 17
18
Chair Chang: Good. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...that is helpful but we do have the 5 points that you laid out as part of the 1
motion and by nods we got confirmation from the maker of the motion and the seconder that 2
those are acceptable descriptions. 3
4
Chair Chang: Thank you for stating that for the record. So additional discussion, 5
Commissioners? Fantastic. I think we could take the vote, please, Miss Dao. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 12
13
Chair Chang: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Vice Chair Reckdahl? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 4
5
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 12
13
MOTION PASSED 6 (Akin, Chang, Lu, Reckdahl, Summa, Templeton) 6-0 14
15
Commission Action: Motion by Summa, second Chang. Pass 6-0 16
17
Chair Chang: Thank you. So now we need to move on to the second part of our discussion of 18
this ordinance, which is the bird-friendly design. Light it up, Commissioners. We’ll have 19
Commissioner Summa and then Commissioner Reckdahl. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: Once again, very great thanks to the staff and also our local agency 2
experts who worked with staff. And this is, I think, more complicated than the dark skies, so 3
bear with me. But I am in favor of extending the bird-sensitive areas to incorporate areas 4
around creeks in the urbanized areas. And I don’t know to what extent my colleagues would be 5
comfortable but definitely natural creeks. I think the recommendation from the Bird Alliance 6
was 300 feet in case of natural creeks. So could staff put up their – I think staff’s 7
recommendation did not have the same allowance for 10 percent of untreated glass glazing in 8
the bird-sensitive areas that our expert recommended and for the 40 percent in the – so the 9
recommendation that was given was that in bird-sensitive areas [and all com-, and 2:03:09] 10
commercial [all 2:03:11] citywide, no more than 10 percent of a façade can be untreated glass 11
or glazing and for residential outside of the BSAs no more than 40 percent of the façade can be 12
untreated glass or glazing. And I think that staff went beyond that to restrict 100 percent in – I 13
believe that’s what that slide indicated. Maybe you could clarify. 14
15
Jennifer Armer: So, yes, it would apply to all windows when you’re talking about the bird-16
sensitive areas. In the other areas of town that are not categorized as bird sensitive, then it 17
would be all windows that are more than the 24-square-foot threshold. So in those cases, if 18
you’ve got a bunch of small windows in a single family residential, for example, structure, it 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
may be more than 40 percent because that glazing – that fenestration is broken up into smaller 1
parts. 2
3
Commissioner Summa: Okay. So I’m kind of torn of – I need to think about this a little after 4
listening to my colleagues. And then I am supportive of bird-hazard installations city-wise not 5
being able to have any untreated glass or glazing. So I don’t know – I could go through... 6
7
Female: [Inaudible 2:04:44]. 8
9
Commissioner Summa: I think that’s a good start there to see what other people are thinking. 10
11
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl? 12
13
Vice Chair Reckdahl: The discussion we had before about is in accordion door one big piece of 14
glass or not and that’s kind of solved if you say we only can have 10 percent untreated, then 15
you don’t have to worry [about 2:05:05] is it just 23-1/2 square feet or 24. It ends up being 16
much cleaner I think. So I think having that less than 10 percent untreated within the BSA and 17
no more than 40 percent untreated outside the BSA, I think is a really good idea. I also agree 18
that we should extend it, I would just say 300 feet to natural creeks and let’s see how this goes 19
and down the road, we may want to extend that to be the urbanized creeks but let’s start small 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and make sure that there’s not unintended consequences from that. So those would be the 2 1
things that I think would be good additions. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin? 4
5
Commissioner Akin: I think I’m going to concur with those opinions. But I want to move on to 6
one more thing, which is the Bird Alliance definition changes, particularly for bird-hazard 7
installations, which I found to have more precision and a better characterization of the hazards 8
than we have in the current proposal. I think I would like to see all of them incorporated into 9
the ordinance. I’m a little worried about the difficulty of identifying the properties that fall 10
within a bird sensitive area, so I’d like to hear some comment from staff about whether they 11
believe there will be any difficulty in conveying that to project applicants. 12
13
Kelly Cha: Well obviously the staff recommendation will provide a clear map to the applicant. 14
The staff report actually includes a map of 2 different options. One was 60 feet buffer from all 15
of the creeks within the area between Foothill Expressway and Highway 101, which was one of 16
the recommendation from the PTC last time and also includes 300-feet buffer from natural 17
creeks with that particular area. So that map can be available to the public if that is adopted as 18
part of the ordinance. Just as a note, the map is – the buffer is created from the center line. It’s 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
not from the top of the bank as we have discussed in the other effort. So it’ll be a lot easier to 1
identify the location if that is incorporated. 2
3
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. That’s encouraging. Let me see. 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [I have 2:08:06] a quick followup there. Do we have a legal definition of 6
what the center of the creek is? 7
8
Kelly Cha: Sorry. Could you repeat? 9
10
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Do we have a legal definition what... 11
12
Female: [Inaudible 2:08:17]. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...the center of the creek is? 15
16
Kelly Cha: Center of the creek – we would have to check that but generally when we say center 17
line is the data we have in GIS layer. 18
19
Vice Chair Reckdahl: There is some GIS define-... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: Yes. 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...-tion. O-... 4
5
Kelly Cha: Mm-hm. 6
7
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...-kay. So if we say 300 feet, then that is... 8
9
Kelly Cha: We would... 10
11
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...clearly stated? 12
13
Kelly Cha: Yeah. We would clarify in the definition that it’s 300 feet from a center line of a 14
natural creek... 15
16
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 17
18
Kelly Cha: ...or any other... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Reckdahl: And then what about parcels? Let’s say 10 percent of the parcel is within 1
300 feet, is that considered – or [it 2:08:50] has to be 50 percent [for 2:08:52] – 50.1 percent or 2
does it have to be entirely within 300 feet? How do we h-... 3
4
Kelly Cha: I think we would say anything that intersects with the buffer area once it’s created. 5
So but there is also a concern that if a tip of the property only intersects with that buffer area, 6
does it really make sense to apply... 7
8
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Exactly. 9
10
Kelly Cha: ...the bird sensitive. So that can be something we can consider. 11
12
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 13
14
Jennifer Armer: And I will jump in and say that in terms of implementation, it would be simplest 15
to say that if any portion of the property is within that that it would apply consistently across 16
that parcel. And what that means is it actually has a slightly larger impact than the 300 but 17
ensures that all property that is within that 300 feet or 60 feet, whatever is chosen, is covered 18
plus a bit more for those properties that straddle the line. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. I’ll give it back to Commissioner Akin. Sorry for that. 1
2
Commissioner Akin: No. That was useful. Thank you. The only other comments I have I’m not 3
going to go into great detail on. But in our public comment we have a number of small 4
suggestions that, nevertheless, deserve attention. Numerical changes, like the distance 5
between parallel glass elements and I don’t know how much discussion the Commission would 6
like to have about those details. Perhaps we can simply give some direction and let you proceed 7
on its way to Council. And I think that’s sufficient for me for now. Thank you. 8
9
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 10
11
Commissioner Lu: I also agree with Vice Chair Reckdahl’s point about prioritizing an overall 12
surface area view rather than the 24 square foot. I think certainly curtain walls that are just 13
pure reflective glass should qualify under this ordinance. But I think as specified for like a 14
continuous 24-square-foot surface, like most of the all-glass buildings in downtown San 15
Francisco, for example, would not qualify under that definition. And I think having something 16
that’s more percentage based might ultimately be the simpler option and, therefore, the 17
preferable option for me as well. I think I’m especially comfortable with this given the carve out 18
we have for residential development being able to use decals or otherwise just inexpensive 19
ways to satisfy this. And also I’m also just assuming that – well, I’ll just say this again because I 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
think I clarified this last time but just want to confirm. We’d look at the horizontal projection of 1
an entire side of a building and any walls, any landscaping, anything that is just not transparent, 2
not a reflective glass window would be counted in that percentage that is bird safe? 3
4
Jennifer Armer: Thank you for that question because I think that is specific clarification that 5
staff would need from the PTC in any recommendation, whether that 90 to 10 percent – 6
whether the 10 percent that doesn’t need to be whether that’s just of the window or 7
fenestration or of the entire wall surface. 8
9
Kelly Cha: Also just wanted to note – thank you – that if you look at the intent of the ordinance, 10
it specifies glass. So staff intention with that language is that we would count the fenestration 11
portion of the building on a façade. But if the PTC’s direction is that we have to consider the 12
entire wall, not just the fenestration portions, we could also consider that as part of the 13
ordinance and clarify. 14
15
Commissioner Lu: I just wanted to confirm what definition [were we to 2:13:39] use when we 16
saw this last time where there was the language about 90 percent of the building elevation? At 17
that time, we were talking about the entire wall, not just the glass, right? Or not just the 18
fenestration? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: I would say that that actually was one of the concerns from staff, that it wasn’t 1
clear in the language that we had before whether when we talked about a percentage of the 2
elevation whether that included, say, the stucco wall. I wasn’t here for the previous discussion, 3
so I’m just going to look over at other staff in case there’s anything more to add. 4
5
Kelly Cha: Thank you. I think that’s correct. I think staff responded – when we were initially 6
drafting the ordinance, we were considering a lot of different elements and then by the time 7
we came up with this particular revision, we looked at the entire ordinance again with the 8
revision and identified that we have specified the glass in the intention of the ordinance. So 9
currently our thought is that we would apply to the glass and fenestration. The reflection level 10
is not part of the ordinance, so that could be another thing that can be added as part of the 11
modifications if the PTC would like to consider. I mean that’s another layer but that is a 12
modification that the Commission can make. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: My gut senses are from like a mathematical and ease of calculation 15
perspective and also just in the spirit of bird safety. It’d be better to pick a percent that applies 16
to the entire like wall, glass, fenestration, everything and then we can tweak that percentage if 17
we feel like we need to but kind of looking at that entire surface [as 2:15:27] cleaner. So if a 18
building has very little glass and all the glass it does have are very small blocks, it’s kind of 19
pointless to require some percentage of that to have these decals because it would already be 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
bird safe. So I think looking at the entire wall is cleaner and I would have been comfortable with 1
the 10 percent and 40 percent outside of the bird-safety area when considering those 2
horizontal projections of the wall. But I would also – I don’t have a really great intuition for 3
which numbers are appropriate here. So I would be curious to hear what other people think. 4
5
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin, is it – okay. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: Yep. I was going to make some of the same points that Commissioner Lu 8
just made. Yeah, you want to use the entire surface and not only because fine-tuning it to the 9
percentage of the existing glazing – percentage of the proposed glazing leads to oddities but 10
the surface itself may be a bird hazard and so you need to make sure that you’re not adding to 11
that with the conditions that are additionally hazardous to birds, like reflectivity. I don’t have an 12
answer to this but I’ll just raise this as a concern: Some building façades matter more than 13
others. So if you’ve got a 6-foot setback from an adjacent building and there might be some 14
windows over there then they really don’t have to be bird treated but I see no easy way to 15
specify that, so I won’t raise that as an objection, just as an item of concern. Otherwise I concur 16
with what Commissioner Lu said. 17
18
Chair Chang: Could you please pull up the staff presentation and go to Slide 6? As I read it, my 19
understanding is that within the urbanized areas, so between 101 and Foothill – oh, no. It’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Slide 7 I think. It’s the one that’s a chart. This one. Yes. Okay. So outside of the bird-safety area, 1
my concern is that commercial buildings could use a 24-square-foot panel of glass over and 2
over and over again. Is that a correct interpretation? 3
4
Kelly Cha: The 24 square feet, they would have to actually have a bird treatment, so anything – 5
just say 23.9 square feet, they could prob-, that is sort of – yes – way to go around this 6
requirement. So if a commercial or non-residential development, they don’t want to have this 7
additional requirement applied to their design for whatever reasons, [may be cause 2:19:09] or 8
something else, then they could design it so that the windows or whatever the bird-hazard 9
installation that’s included in their project, they can design it so that it’s under 24 square feet. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. Now I don’t know how realistic that is or not but my biggest concern is that 12
we wanted to make – like the feedback from the PTC, as I understood it before, was to make 13
sure that this was not onerous within the urbanized area with respect to residential but we 14
wanted to be quite stringent for commercial because there’s readily available materials. So as I 15
looked at it, I mean in layperson’s terms, I don’t know how to structure this exactly in the 16
ordinance, I would say we want the bird safety – sorry – we want the bird-friendly design to 17
apply to all new construction, all substantial remodels, new or replacement of existing for 18
everything in the city with exceptions for residential. Residential that’s outside of the bird-19
safety area, we would allow for greater exception than we would for residential that’s inside 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the bird-safety area. So that’s like in layperson’s terms what I think we want to do and I think 1
I’m hearing actual complete agreement with that. So the concern I have is that somebody could 2
take – we want the commercial buildings outside of the bird-safety area to be held to a very 3
high standard, to the same standard, frankly, as they would be held within the bird-safety area. 4
5
Kelly Cha: I think that’s a pretty clear direction. 6
7
Chair Chang: Okay. 8
9
Kelly Cha: Just wanted to note that commercial includes small retails as well so we want to 10
make sure that that’s also considered. 11
12
Chair Chang: Right. But I saw that there was an exception in the ordinance for retail and so that 13
addressed that concern for me. So that’s kind of my biggest piece of feedback. My second really 14
big piece of feedback is regarding – and I think Commissioner Akin already mentioned this. I do 15
think that the bird-hazard installation submitted by – was it the Santa Clara Audubon Society or 16
the Bird – oh, by the Bird Alliance – the bird-hazard installations revised definition as submitted 17
by the Bird Alliance is very valuable. I agree with everything that’s in the revised definition 18
section for all the definitions because they had modifications to the definition for glazing as 19
well, mainly just to add the concept of reflectivity there as a definition and I would support all 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
of those changes. That’s it for me. I don’t see additional lights, which suggests to me that we 1
might be ready for a motion but I’m not entirely sure. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: I’m still digesting, I guess, your point about the applicability for commercial 4
under your revised framing. So if someone – I don’t know – wanted to build like, a hypothetical, 5
2-story retail building, like a movie theater or something that has a little bit more height, we 6
would exempt the first floor up to 14 feet of that first floor from any of these requirements but 7
then any glass above the first floor would need to have the expensive [fritting 2:23:16] no 8
matter what, right? 9
10
Chair Chang: No. Only if it’s above 24 f-, wait. No. That’s not right. That’s right. Never mind. 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Okay. So in this movie theater example – we all love movie theaters – but 13
there wouldn’t be a lot of glass in a movie theater. But I’m just trying to think of the unintended 14
consequences of there are plausibly desirable uses where we make someone pay for the glass 15
that could be a 2 to 10-percent increase in total building cost, at least for a significant portion of 16
that glass, within potentially like in the context even [inaudible 2:24:13].. 17
18
Chair Chang: That’s where... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:24:13]... 1
2
Chair Chang: That was some... 3
4
Commissioner Lu: ...Palo Alto. 5
6
Chair Chang: ...of the data that was called into question last time. [But 2:24:16] it’s closer to 2 7
percent of entire building. No. I think of... 8
9
Kelly Cha: Total cost of construction. 10
11
Chair Chang: Total cost of construction... 12
13
Kelly Cha: So... 14
15
Commissioner Lu: Which is quite high because the returns you want on a real estate project 16
might be like 6 percent or 8 percent or something like that and so if 2 percent of your returns 17
are [inaudible 2:24:38]. 18
19
Female: So my f-... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: We need to go back to more formal rather than talking back and forth. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: [Oh, yeah 2:24:45]. I’m... 4
5
Chair Chang: But my... 6
7
Commissioner Lu: ...sorry. 8
9
Chair Chang: ...reaction to that is we need to try and be respectful to our wildlife. As it is, we’ve 10
taken over tons of habitat. Bird deaths are just totally preventable, so I don’t know why we 11
must have massive reflective surfaces or huge panels of glass, like movie theater or otherwise. 12
And so it seems to me that if you really want to have – the huge panel of reflective surface is a 13
problem that is introduced because of something aesthetic and so – now if it’s with respect to a 14
giant window, the functionality of windows is to let in light, we can do that in ways that don’t – 15
we can break up those windows and so I think I’m okay with making that requirement for 16
commercial. [And 25:50] especially because the materials are readily available. For residential, 17
people just want functional windows and they don’t want to have to make really expensive 18
adjustments. That makes sense to me. I think we’ve allowed them to do that by making 19
exceptions as well as allowing them to use like the stickers. So I think we’re okay on this. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Lu: Yes. I’m just thinking about the daylight between what Vice Chair Reckdahl 2
originally spoke about, like having the 10 percent and 40 percent versus this revised framing. 3
And I’m still just thinking about it but I wanted to be clear... 4
5
Chair Chang: Well, I was thinking... 6
7
Commissioner Lu: ...what the rules were. 8
9
Chair Chang: ...in the context of the 10% and the 40% as well actually. In other words that 10
commercial should be held to a higher standard, the 10-percent standard no matter where they 11
are. 12
13
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. 14
15
Chair Chang: Yeah. So I wasn’t saying... 16
17
Commissioner Lu: So [it’s a 2:26:39] 10-percent standard... 18
19
Chair Chang: ...nothing but the 10 p-... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Lu: ...10 percent on a projection of a wall, not all glass all the time... 2
3
Chair Chang: No. Not... 4
5
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:26:47]... 6
7
Chair Chang: ...all gl-... 8
9
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:26:47]... 10
11
Chair Chang: ...because if it’s a... 12
13
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:26:48]. 14
15
Chair Chang: ...a tiny, little square of glass, it’s not a bird hazard, just addressing the bird 16
hazards. Yes. 17
18
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. That clarifies my concern. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. 1
2
Commissioner Lu: Thank you. 3
4
Chair Chang: Thanks. 5
6
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Just [one thing 2:27:02] you had not mentioned when you gave your 7
summary was commercial would also get a 10 percent exemption. Okay. Then I agree with that 8
because they have small windows. But any window that’s greater than 24 square feet has to be 9
bird safe regardless of where it is? Okay. Then we’re on the same page. 10
11
Chair Chang: Lights. There’s a light from Commissioner Summa and then from Lu. 12
13
Jennifer Armer: But if I may through the Chair, just a clarification. Earlier discussion it sounded 14
like the Commission was moving towards using a percentage instead of the 24-square-foot 15
threshold and so before you get to a motion, we will need to have clarification whether you’re 16
imposing both... 17
18
Chair Chang: I think we need an and... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...the percentage... 1
2
Chair Chang: ...[in there 2:27:53]. 3
4
Jennifer Armer: ...and – okay. Because that was not what the initial discussion sounded like, so 5
leave that as part of the next steps in discussion. 6
7
Chair Chang: Okay. Wait. So we had Commissioner Summa and then Commissioner Lu and then 8
Commissioner Reckdahl. 9
10
Female: [Inaudible 2:28:10]. 11
12
Female: [Inaudible 2:28:12] 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 2:28:12]. 15
16
Female: [What 2:28:13]? 17
18
Commissioner Summa: I was just... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 2:28:16]. 1
2
Commissioner Summa: ...going to – oh, okay. Given the way the conversation was going, I was 3
just going to be supportive of for all new development, substantial remodel, new and 4
replacement fenestration and bird-hazard installations in the BSA, bird-sensitive areas, and all 5
non-residential citywide no more than 10 percent of a façade can be untreated glass. I added 6
slash glazing because there seems to be a confusion in the way we’ve written this a little bit 7
about glass and glazing. And then for residential outside of the BSAs, no more than 40 percent 8
of a façade can be untreated glass and glazing. And I am convinced that for traditional 9
architecture, that’s not going to be a burden for housing production. Where it might come into 10
play is when somebody wants to build a very contemporary house with a lot of glass and then 11
it’s appropriate to me. I think 40 percent outside of – and those kinds of houses are mostly built 12
in the bird-sensitive area west of Foothill where we have bigger lots and people build big 13
mansions. But it might happen once in a while in the urbanized area. And to support the Bird 14
Alliance’s – which has been mentioned before – more nuanced, I think, description of bird-15
hazard installations and the concept that those cannot be untreated ever throughout the whole 16
city. So that’s kind of where I am. 17
18
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: That was a ghost light. Sorry. 1
2
Chair Chang: Oh, ghost light. Okay. And then Commissioner Reckdahl, did you have... 3
4
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 2:30:23]. 5
6
Chair Chang: Oh, he’s done too. Commissioner Akin? 7
8
Commissioner Akin: I’ll jump in on the 24-square-foot limit. I do know of a few houses in Old 9
Palo Alto that have been built recently that I think violate the 24-square-foot limit without 10
violating the 40 percent... 11
12
Female: [Put dots on it then 2:30:46]. 13
14
Commissioner Akin: ...rule but I think they would also violate the 2 parallel glass surfaces within 15
either [17 or 30 2:30:58] feet, so I’m not greatly concerned about eliminating the 24-square-16
foot limit and sticking to 40 percent. Thanks. 17
18
Chair Chang: I’m not seeing any lights. Does somebody want to [inaudible 2:31:16] a motion? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Female: Are you ready to? 1
2
Commissioner Akin: Well, I didn’t write these down as we went along so we may have to 3
assemble a list as we go. So I can begin with – thank you – can begin with the staff’s 4
recommendation with the following modifications: that we apply to all new development, 5
substantial remodel and new and replacement fenestration and bird-hazard installations for all 6
commercial developments within the city – citywide. For all residential developments in the 7
bird-sensitive area, for both of those 2 cases, no more than 10 percent of a façade can be 8
untreated glazing. Note the use of glazing rather than glass. For residential outside of the bird-9
sensitive areas, no more than 40 percent of the façade can be glazed. 10
11
Female: [Inaudible 2:32:50]. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Untreated – excuse me – untreated glazed. And let’s see. We can eliminate 14
the 24-square-foot panel limit as we’ve covered that with both the 2 percentage values. And 15
now I need to ask what am I missing? Oh... 16
17
Female: [Bird hazard] [inaudible 2:33:17]. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: ...we recommend that the bird-hazard definition provided by the Santa 1
Clara Valley Bird Alliance be taken as the model for what should be included in the ordinance. 2
Did I get everything that time? 3
4
Chair Chang: I think we also needed to talk about what we defined as the bird-safe area, so we 5
needed to pick a map or pick a map and then modify the map. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: All right. So my proposal for the motion is that we adopt the map with east 8
of 101, west of Foothill and within 300 feet of naturalized streams in the area between. 9
10
Male: [Inaudible 2:34:06]. 11
12
Commissioner Akin: I’m sorry, natural. Yes. Not naturalized. 13
14
Male: [Inaudible 2:34:11]. 15
16
Chair Chang: Would somebody like to – that’s Packet Page 37 is what Commissioner Lu said. 17
18
Male: [Inaudible 2:34:25]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Would somebody like to second this motion? 1
2
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I’ll second it. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. And then discussion? 5
6
Jennifer Armer: Just to confirm, it was Commissioner Reckdahl who seconded? 7
8
Chair Chang: Correct. 9
10
Jennifer Armer: Thank you. 11
12
Chair Chang: I don’t see any lights so I’m going to suggest a friendly amendment, which is I think 13
that we should say windows – it’s an and regarding the 10 and 40 percent and the 24-square-14
feet glazing. In other words, my concern is that let’s say we have a 1,000-square-foot façade 15
and 10 percent of that is one giant window that is 100 square feet, that is a bird-hazard 16
installation, so that’s why I think we need to have an and. In other words the windows greater 17
than 24 square feet are considered bird-hazard installations and should all be treated. That’s 18
just my thought. So it’s not – I’m trying to figure out how to amend that. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: Chair Chang? 1
2
Chair Chang: Yes? 3
4
Jennifer Armer: If you would like me to suggest some language... 5
6
Chair Chang: Yes, please. 7
8
Jennifer Armer: ...to get at what you are describing. It could be that it would be a separate 9
statement that says something along the lines of no untreated glass glazing shall be allowed to 10
be greater than 24 square feet or unbroken for greater than 24 square feet. 11
12
Chair Chang: Yes, that. 13
14
Male: [Inaudible 2:36:16]. 15
16
Chair Chang: That’s my suggested amendment. 17
18
Commissioner Akin: I would accept that with a couple of clarifications. The use of the word 19
glass, we’re really trying to avoid that, so it just needs to be glazing. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jennifer Armer: Glass/glazing or whatever term we use... 2
3
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. Just gla-... 4
5
Jennifer Armer: ...consistently. Yes. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: Glazing. And the problem I had thinking about this particular issue is what 8
constitutes unbroken and I really didn’t want to get down into the rat hole of saying oh well, a 9
1-inch wide divided light is acceptable but a 6-inch wide divided light is – or 1-inch wide is not 10
acceptable but a 6-inch wide is. So my objection is not to the to the intent of the amendment 11
but to its implementability. And so I might have to ask for any insights from fellow 12
commissioners on how to solve that problem. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Well, I mean that’s part of the reason I want the percentage and that, is 15
that then if they do play some game and have some thin divider that they argue is not – they 16
can only play that game so far before the percentage kicks in. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Sure but that’s sort of true already. Right? You can only play the game up 1
until 40 percent or 10 percent or whatever your context requires. But it still begs the question 2
of what is an uninterrupted panel of glass. 3
4
Chair Chang: Well, I think that Miss Cha had mentioned that if it has any window pane around 5
it, then that is interrupted and so you could have, theoretically, several 24-square-foot panels 6
put side by side with a very, very thin pane. That’s not ideal. Hopefully prohibitively expensive 7
to do that. But if they did that it would be limited because you can’t, if you’re a commercial 8
development, exceed 10 percent of the façade. So I think that that kind of puts the bounds that 9
– but it does prevent a 48-square-foot panel. 10
11
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. But from a bird’s point of view there may be no difference. Right? 12
13
Female: But... 14
15
Male: Yeah. 16
17
Commissioner Akin: Do you see the issue? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: I’m just going to jump in. Isn’t that covered by the bird-hazard parallel 1
glass statement? 2
3
Commissioner Akin: Not always. So consider an accordion door, glass wall, so there may be 8-10 4
of these in a row, 3 feet or so wide each, so you could have what looks like a roughly unbroken 5
stretch of glass and there’s 6-inch dividers in between each pane. So is that okay? Whereas, if 6
you had a 1-inch separation, would that be okay? I just didn’t... 7
8
Male: [Inaudible 2:39:47]. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: ...want to get us stuck in that... 11
12
Male: [Inaudible 2:39:49]... 13
14
Commissioner Akin: ...decision-making problem. 15
16
Vice Chair Reckdahl: It kind of comes down to when does a boy become a man if there’s not a 17
distinct line. And so we’re just saying that we know that big chunks of window are not good and 18
we’re going to try and regulate that 2 ways and if they do have a 1-inch divider that isn’t real 19
great bird friendliness but that only can go so far before the percentage kicks in. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Then what I would suggest is a panel of unbroken glass of less than 24-2
square-feet, glazing of less than 24 square feet, so no break at all is the limit because that 3
avoids the how large a divider are we willing to support. 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I am happy with that. 6
7
Jennifer Armer: So through the Chair, it sounds like the maker and seconder of the motion have 8
accepted your friendly amendment. 9
10
Chair Chang: Yep. Sounds like. 11
12
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 13
14
Commissioner Akin: As long as all of the discussion about the specifics has been captured... 15
16
Jennifer Armer: [That 2:40:55]... 17
18
Commissioner Akin: ...then... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jennifer Armer: ...it will be... 1
2
Commissioner Akin: ...the... 3
4
Jennifer Armer: ...unbroken, I think was the word that was settled on. 5
6
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Good. Then as the maker, I accept the amendment. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: I would like to offer a couple other ideas that were in – I don’t think that 9
we incorporated from the Bird Alliance and one is alternate compliance so that there’s a way to 10
request an alternate compliance, which there’s a very specific language about how you would 11
have to prove this have a degree in wildlife biology or specialization. We could include that also 12
for consideration – recommendation to City Council. And then also I wanted to mention 13
something about exemptions and historic structures within the city’s historic districts are listed 14
on the city’s historic inventory of State or National Historic Registry registers, including new 15
additions. I wanted to add there that I’m a little uncomfortable exempting additions to historic 16
resources. 17
18
The reason being because the Secretary of Interior Standards specify that you cannot duplicate 19
the historic building if you’re putting an addition on it, so you often get very interesting 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
architecturally adjusted positions that are these large – because glass is so popular right now. 1
So I would also make a recommendation to remove the exclusion for new additions on historic 2
structures because you can’t – you actually – the Secretary of Standard Interiors for historic 3
structures is that you don’t want it to be confused and look like the historic structure. So and an 4
example of this in Palo Alto is when Avenidas did their addition, there was a lot of discussion 5
about this. There’s a natural inclination a lot of times from applicants to have it look like the 6
historic building and it’s not actually allowed. So think of I.M. Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre. 7
8
Chair Chang: Commission Summa, was that just a discussion point or did you have an 9
amendment that you were suggesting? 10
11
Commissioner Summa: No. It’s an amendment. I would like to add those 2 ideas... 12
13
Chair Chang: Can you... 14
15
Commissioner Summa: ...into the motion. 16
17
Chair Chang: ...restate that just to make sure that we caught it because there was a lot of 18
other... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 1
2
Chair Chang: ...background [inaudible 2:43:47]? 3
4
Commissioner Summa: To remove the exemption for new additions to historic buildings. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. That was one piece. But then there was another piece? 7
8
Commissioner Summa: The other piece was to adopt language from the Bird Alliance’s 9
recommendation for alternate compliance. 10
11
Commissioner Lu: What is that recommendation specifically? 12
13
Chair Chang: It just says that the biologist or ornithologist is accredited in bird-friendly design or 14
has 5 years of experience in bird-friendly building design. 15
16
Commissioner Summa: It just added a little bit of specificity to what staff had already 17
recommended. 18
19
Commissioner Akin: As the... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Male: [Inaudible 2:44:34]. 2
3
Commissioner Akin: ...maker, I would accept both of those amendments. 4
5
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Thank you. 6
7
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. I accept. I’m a little nervous about that. That could be very arbitrary 8
but we also want to give a relief valve if it really is onerous, so let’s give it a try and we always 9
can repeal it if it’s problematic down the road. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. Commissioner Lu? 12
13
Commissioner Lu: I’m just trying to do some furious Googling on what accreditation systems 14
actually exist, whether this field has been very active for 5 years, so whether this would restrict 15
the pool of qualified experts so much that it may not exist or maybe people – looking at the 16
public comment, it looks like there’s one group that is maybe Canada-based that is developing 17
an accreditation system. But I’m not sure if there are any other accreditations right now 18
actually in practice. So I respect the spirit of that amendment but I am concerned that it’s very 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
specific and something that I just don’t have any intuitions on, like what the right line to draw 1
there is. So I don’t know if that’s something that [inaudible 2:46:00] having staff look at. 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: My thinking is that if it’s really difficult to find an expert, the applicant still 4
is not any worse than if we didn’t have this safety valve at all. So it only helps the applicant. 5
6
Commissioner Lu: Oh, sorry. So the safety valve is already there? We will just make it... 7
8
Chair Chang: We were modifying the safety valve of alternative... 9
10
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:46:23]? 11
12
Chair Chang: ...compliance. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Yes, to require more qualifications? Okay. 15
16
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Oh... 17
18
Commissioner Lu: I just... 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...I’m sorry. So the safety valve right now does not require... 1
2
Commissioner Lu: The safety valve on Packet Page 30 requires a qualified biologist or 3
ornithologist and it’s good to – and the definition qualified is to have a degree and/or 4
experience in bird-friendly building design. And this would add an accreditation and/or – so it 5
would be accreditation or degree and 5 years in addition to the accreditation... 6
7
Commissioner Summa: I think what it’s... 8
9
Commissioner Lu: ...[inaudible 2:47:12]. 10
11
Commissioner Summa: ... really adding is 5 years’ experience. I think that’s – because we were 12
already allowing this. 13
14
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [Let’s see and 2:47:27]... 15
16
Female: [Inaudible 2:47:27]. 17
18
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Female: [Inaudible 2:47:37]. 1
2
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 3
4
Female: [Inaudible 1:47:39]. 5
6
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [I think it 2:47:40]... 7
8
Female: [Inaudible 2:47:50]. 9
10
Chair Chang: Please speak into the microphone. 11
12
Male: [Inaudible 2:47:57]. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. 15
16
Commissioner Akin: All right. Are we missing anything else? 17
18
Chair Chang: With respect to the 5 years – with respect to the alternative compliance option 19
and the amendment, can I hear the actual language that we’re suggesting? Is it accreditation 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and 5 years’ experience in bird-friendly building design or is it accreditation or 5-year 1
experience? What is the maker and the seconder’s understanding of what they agreed to? 2
3
Commissioner Summa: The language is shall be accredited in bird-friendly design or have a 4
degree in wildlife biology or specialization in ornithology and have 5 years’ experience in bird-5
friendly building design. 6
7
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 8
9
Female: [That’s fine 2:48:53]. 10
11
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Right. So the key difference is rather than just saying have experience but 14
have 5 years of experience and the there is an alternative of shall be accredited in bird-friendly 15
design in... 16
17
Female: [Inaudible 2:49:13]... 18
19
Commissioner Akin: ...addition to the other option, which we’ve just described. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Understood. Okay. Thank you. Are there other comments or discussion? Is there 2
other discussion regarding the motion that’s on the table? Seeing no lights, Miss Dao, could you 3
please take a vote? 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 10
11
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Vice Chair Reckdahl? 14
15
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 18
19
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 2
3
Chair Chang: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 6
7
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 10
11
MOTION PASSED 6 (Templeton, Summa, Reckdahl, Lu, Chang, Akin) 6-0 12
13
Commission Action: Motion by Akin, second Reckdahl. Pass 6-0 14
15
Chair Chang: All right. Thank you, everyone. I think let’s take a 7-minute break before we move 16
on to our next item. 17
18
Study Session 19
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 20
21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
3. Request for Feedback on the Development of a Feasibility Study for a Shared 1
Micromobility Program in Palo Alto; CEQA status – Not a Project 2
3
Chair Chang: Welcome back, everyone. Our next agenda item is a study session on – so titled 4
request for feedback on the development of a feasibility study for a shared micromobility 5
program in Palo Alto. Could we please have the staff report? 6
7
Sylvia Star-Lack: Good evening, Commissioners. This is Sylvia Star-Lack, Transportation Planning 8
Manager in the Office of Transportation. If our Chief Transportation Official is on – he’s not on? 9
Okay. Then I will make the introduction of our new staff. Katie Heuser is our new Senior 10
Transportation Planner who was hired to work on transportation projects relating to our 11
Sustainability and Climate Action Plan. You ready? All right. Katie’s going to take it away. 12
13
Senior Planner Katie Heuser: Good evening, Chair, Vice Chair and Commissioners. My name is 14
Katie Heuser. I’m excited to talk to you today about initiating a micromobility program in Palo 15
Alto. Two objectives for tonight. The first one is to discuss a need for and components of a 16
feasibility study. The second is to review major considerations for a micromobility program. To 17
define [the term 2:59:53] micromobility, also known as bike share or scooter share, they’re 18
fleets of lightweight vehicles available in a public realm and they’re rented through a 19
smartphone app for short trips, usually point to point. They’re often used to serve first- and 20
last-mile connections between homes and transit. Shared micromobility is a very common 21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
transportation service in North America. Micromobility usage is recovering after COVID with 1
some ridership peaks recorded in 2023. There are a lot of benefits for micromobility in Palo 2
Alto, which is why it’s included in City plans such as the Sustainability and Climate Action Plan, 3
the 2030 Comprehensive Plan and the 2025 Bicycle and Pedestrian Transportation Plan Update. 4
Some of these benefits include increased travel options for visitors and residents. Micromobility 5
can also replace car trips, which thus reduces vehicle miles traveled, greenhouse gas emissions 6
and congestion on our streets. Micromobility also can provide an opportunity for recreation 7
and has been shown to increase consumer spending due to increased mobility. 8
9
In our staff report, City staff recommended conducting a feasibility study to investigate the 10
viability of micromobility in Palo Alto. There are 2 purposes for this study. First there are costs 11
associated with a micromobility program. The City will need to invest staff time and municipal 12
funds to ensure that the program works. A feasibility study can 1) define these expected costs, 13
which may be associated with staff and administrative support, data management, public 14
education, etc., and a feasibility study can also determine the sources and allocate these staff 15
time and funds. City staff have identified many potential sources for funding, including VTA’s 16
2016 Measure B, federal and state grants, corporate sponsorships, user revenue. We can 17
charge operators fees. And there’s also potentially City funding. The feasibility study can help 18
identify specifically which of these sources can be used and for what purpose. And I want to 19
highlight that a micromobility program needs funding both for capital costs, which includes 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
equipment and associated infrastructure, and then operations and maintenance. I also want to 1
quickly highlight that no matter the structure of a micromobility program, public funding will be 2
necessary. It ensures that the City has control over decision-making. It ensures that even in 3
lower density areas where micromobility may not be profitable that people have access to a 4
bike or scooter. Public funding also ensures that [even it 3:02:54] could be used to establish 5
lower user cost and just provide general stability for the program so it’s long lasting. 6
7
The second reason why a feasibility study is recommended is because of the many 8
administrative and technical components of a micromobility program. Every city does 9
micromobility a little differently. So the study would determine the most sustainable program 10
structure for Palo Alto. Some of the technical questions a study would answer are listed on this 11
slide and range from how will people with low incomes, people of color and people with 12
disabilities benefit from micromobility all the way down to the nitty-gritty of how many vehicles 13
do we need. I have listed some the proposed content on this slide. A feasibility study would 14
start off with our community’s vision and goals. It would establish some baseline conditions as 15
well as include analysis of demand and understanding some barriers to a program. A feasibility 16
study would also include community engagement and we summarize that here. And finally, a 17
study would end with recommendations for governance, cost and funding and would establish 18
program guidelines for implementation. The feasibility study would also include data analyses 19
using demographic, commute and activity data. There’s a couple options on the slide here, the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
left one showing kind of a demand analyses for Herndon, Virginia. It also identifies potential 1
stations or [nodes 3:04:30] for micromobility. The study on the right was done recently in San 2
Mateo County identifying barriers using [level 3:04:37] traffic stress. So there are 5 areas City 3
staff would like your feedback on tonight. 4
5
These are areas that a feasibility study would explore as well. The first one is PTC’s goals and 6
priorities for micromobility, which would help to shape the direction of the program. Goals may 7
relate to public transportation, greenhouse gas emission reduction, safety, affordability. The list 8
could go on. The second is a service coverage area, which is where devices are allowed to 9
operate. Operators can also prohibit riding or parking in areas, which is often implemented in 10
areas with high pedestrian traffic. We are open to feedback on where devices should or should 11
not be operated. A key part of this conversation on operational boundaries is Stanford’s 12
position, specifically their position on micromobility on their campus. City staff are currently in 13
conversation with Sanford to understand how the university could be included in a program 14
and they would represent a significant user market. If they do not agree to be a part of a 15
program, that presents some additional operational challenges we would have to address. The 16
third area for feedback is the form factor, so E-scooters, standard bikes and E-bikes are the 17
most common form of micromobility. Seated scooters are less common and shared cargo bikes 18
are currently rare but are growing. Each device has different benefits, different challenges and 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
some people may feel very comfortable on one device but not at all on another. We’re open to 1
any feedback on what device/devices may make the most sense for Palo Alto. 2
3
But staff recommend initially providing all types of devices and the type and ratio can be 4
narrowed down based on ridership numbers. The fourth area for feedback is the system type. 5
So in the public realm, devices can be organized in 3 different ways and in any system, staff are 6
needed and bands are needed to rebalance devices so that they’re distributed evenly 7
throughout the service area. The first system type, station-based or docked where users have 8
to return their vehicle to a station, mostly common for bicycles, not scooters. A dockless system 9
is also an option where vehicles are placed within the right of way outside of pathways. This is 10
more common for scooters but also bikes have been dockless as well. And then finally there’s a 11
hybrid system, which combines both, so fewer stations that are more spread out and users 12
have the option to park outside of that station. For dockless and hybrid systems, there are 13
several strategies to manage clutter and ensure people aren’t tripping over scooters and bikes. 14
The first is to identify appropriate fleet sizes so that there’s enough that people have access to 15
a vehicle but aren’t running into them on the sidewalk. The second is to install bikes on devices 16
and requiring users to lock them to bike racks. We can also designate on or off-street parking 17
corrals to encourage spaces for parking. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
And we can take advantage of AB 413, which allows bike and scooter parking within 20 feet of 1
any crossing. And finally ownership and operations. We must determine the business model 2
that owns and operates the program. There are 3 common models listed on this slide. The first 3
one, publicly owned and operated by a private or nonprofit entity, so the financial responsibility 4
is on the municipality and we would contract operations out to a third party. For example, 5
Capital Bike Share or Metro Bike Share in LA. The second and most common option is privately 6
owned and operated where a private firm is issued a permit or a contract to operate. This 7
option is mostly viable in communities with high revenue potential, such as areas with 8
universities or large employers. For example, for this model is Bay Wheels [or anytime you see] 9
[inaudible] [spin bike] [inaudible 3:09:15]. And then there’s finally the nonprofit owned and 10
operated model where ownership and financial responsibility is on a new or existing nonprofit. 11
And for example, Cascadia Mobility in the Pacific Northwest uses this model. I could talk about 12
all this but each model has implications for legal liability, funding, municipal control and staffing 13
needs. I’ve summarized the 5 areas for feedback on our questions here on this slide but I look 14
forward to your feedback and appreciate your time. Thank you. 15
16
Chair Chang: Any clarifying questions? Oh, it’s a study session. I mean I guess we could just 17
chime in. So light it up. Commissioner – oh, are there public comments? I didn’t think so. 18
19
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yes. We should invite public comments. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Yes. No. But I didn’t think that there were any. So are there any public comments? 2
Oh, there is. There’s one public comment on Zoom. 3
4
Veronica Dao: [3:10:30] Yes. One raised hand on Zoom from Cedric. 5
6
Cedric De La Beaujardiere: Hello again. Thank you for your prior item, for expanding the 7
protections for birds. I appreciated that. I have frequently made use of these bike share 8
systems in other cities to get around and explore wherever I’m visiting. And I strongly 9
encourage us to do a pilot program here. Based on my experience – well first off, I’d like to say I 10
really like the idea of having a mix of vehicles, such as regular bikes, E-bikes and cargo bikes. 11
Regular bikes are probably easier to maintain and to help people get more exercise. Cargo bikes 12
would be useful for Palo Alto residents to enable them to do larger shopping trips by bike than 13
they might normally be able to make. I don’t have a strong preference for dock versus dockless 14
but dockless would be a more organic way to determine where do people really want to go and 15
find bikes and this information could be used to tailor the network in later implementations if 16
we want to go to a purely docked version. 17
18
In Paris, France, there were bike stations about every 1,000 feet, so basically they were always 19
within a 2- or 3-minute walk. You could find a docked place with a bunch of bikes from 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
anywhere in the city. This was really convenient but such densities of stations might not be 1
possible for us in Palo Alto given our lower residential density. The system should include a 2
good mapping application that shows the locations of the vehicles by type and, in the case of 3
electric vehicles, how much charge is left in the device and the ability to reserve a bike so that 4
you can walk 5 or 10 minutes, however it might take, to get to that location and find the bike is 5
still there and someone didn’t come and snag it. For the E-bikes they should be pedal assist and 6
not exclusively throttle. When I was in New Orleans for a business trip a couple years ago, made 7
use of their E-bikes and these were throttle only where the motor was only engaged when I 8
pedaled forward but if I pedal forward faster or harder, it did not appreciably add any speed or 9
range and it was really annoying. 10
11
I just had to slowly pedal forward and then I would zip along at one constant speed and it was 12
kind of really annoying. If the E-bike runs out of electricity, the rider should be able to operate 13
the bike. And again, in New Orleans, I ran out of power pretty far from the area and it was 14
extremely difficult to pedal forward, as if a break was being applied. In Minneapolis, I used the 15
system and I got out of range of the area and they had a covered area and they had a 16
somewhat arbitrary border. So we should seek to have a really clear border of where the bikes 17
can be operated and not have this kind of ridiculous shaped structure. And again, if you do find 18
yourself out of the range, you should still be able to operate the bike so that you can get back 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
into the range of the region as quickly as possible. So it looks like I’m out of time. So those are 1
some initial thoughts. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Chang: Thank you. We’ve got 2 commissioners with lights on – 3. So Commissioner Akin, 4
then Vice Chair Reckdahl, then Commissioner Lu. 5
6
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. I apologize these are not going to be in the order in 7
which you requested feedback. You didn’t show Slide 24 of your presentation but I was struck 8
by the inset on that slide, which suggested to me that if we have limitations on vehicle type that 9
scooters might be a better fit for a city the size of Palo Alto. So do you have that slide... 10
11
Chair Chang: Could staff show... 12
13
Commissioner Akin: ...handy? 14
15
Chair Chang: ...Slide 24, please? 16
17
Katie Heuser: Sorry. Give me one minute. 18
19
Female: [Inaudible 3:15:10]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Female: Yeah. Sorry. 2
3
Sylvia Star-Lack: We’re pulling that up and getting it shared to the Zoom meeting so that 4
everybody online can also see it. 5
6
Commissioner Akin: So you see the blue inset on the center right, small to medium cities tend 7
to have lower average utilization rates. But what struck me was not the lower average 8
utilization rate but that the rate for scooters was comparable to the combination of the rate for 9
bikes. So that’s what prompted the question. So it might be an item to flag for a particular note 10
in the feasibility study. One thing that I’m always concerned about is metrics of success. And 11
this was alluded to in several places in the staff report and the presentation. But I would be 12
very interested in understanding how well our program does on metrics like reducing [VMP 13
3:16:24] and GHG emissions and possibly congestion as well, not just ridership because not only 14
is there a possibility that micromobility systems might take trips away from people who walk 15
but they might simply add on to trips that are also taken in part by single occupancy vehicles. 16
17
So this is a hard problem and I don’t know how you will address it but I hope that the question 18
is considered as part of the feasibility study. You talked briefly about or mentioned briefly in 19
one of the documents about partnering with adjacent cities and I have to say that given what’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
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happening in the San Antonio corridor, partnering with Mountain View seems just essential. So 1
we’ll have to do a good accounting of that. And last thing on my list is Slide 5 in the same 2
presentation we see 37 percent of shared micromobility trips replace a car trip and I’m curious 3
as to where that number comes from. Slide 5. 4
5
Katie Heuser: Yes. That is a number calculated by the North American Bike Share and Scooter 6
Share Association. I’d have to check what their methodology was. I know they do list it in one of 7
their reports that summarizes annual micromobility usage every year. But I agree these metrics 8
are very important. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. I can certainly see this being believable in a very dense, very large 11
metro area. I have a kid in school in Toronto and given the way things are done there, I find that 12
really believable in Toronto. But here, I don’t know if the same conditions would apply. That’s 13
all on my list for this round. 14
15
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl? 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Palo Alto did have a bike share program 5 years ago or so. What happened 18
to that? What was the results? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
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Chief Transportation Official Philip Kamhi: I’m not sure. Philip Kamhi, Chief Transportation 1
Official. Maybe I’ll just jump in here. We actually did not end up operating a bicycle and scooter 2
share. I think the report had maybe some history of this but there previously had been – it’s 3
been kind of a strange path to get to where we are at with bicycle and scooter share. So 4
originally, I think back in 2017 or 2018, there had been some significant work done on getting a 5
bike share vendor to provide bike share in the city. At that time, it was going to be paid for by 6
the City. However, all the sudden, a bunch of companies from China brought scooter and bike 7
share all over and caused a major disruption in this scooter and bike share environment. And 8
then soon after, they abandoned all their bikes and scooters everywhere. So there’s been some 9
significant changes. Then the company Bird came, which you might have heard [inaudible 10
3:20:24]... 11
12
Vice Chair Reckdahl: But Palo Alto... 13
14
Philip Kamhi: ...[inaudible 3:20:25]... 15
16
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...did have a bike share program. I’m showing my age though because that 17
was more than 5 years ago because it was way before COVID. But down by [inaudible 3:20:35]... 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Philip Kamhi: [Inaudible 3:20:35] the ones I’m aware of, at least in the time that I’ve been here 1
[and 3:20:41] starting back from 2017, we had a bike share program that was going to be 2
approved and then it actually got pulled back. Then we approved a pilot in, I believe 2020 or 3
right before the pandemic hit and then we weren’t able to deliver that pilot. And that’s when 4
the market changed again and a lot the lessons learned that we learned from other cities and 5
also a lot of the bike share – appreciating the Commissioner’s comments that certain – different 6
scooters or bikes might be more appropriate in different cities. But really we might not have a 7
choice. We might end up getting whatever vendors are willing to give us because that’s been a 8
major shift. There’s been a big shift to just scooters or the scooters have become more 9
prevalent, at least from these sharing companies. And then I think Sylvia is going to provide 10
history. Maybe she knows about the ones that are from further back. 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yes. The early Bay Area Bike Share system had, I want to say 3 docks in Palo 13
Alto and it just wasn’t enough to make it work. Part of the issue there is that Stanford 14
University would not participate. So when there are just 3 docks, like 2 on University and 1 near 15
Cal Ave somewhere, it’s just not... 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible] [docks 3:22:10]. Next to Fry’s there was a bunch. 18
19
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Sylvia Star-Lack: Yeah. Right. And that that was it. There just wasn’t enough for people to go the 1
places they wanted to go so. 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And so do we know the size or is this just we’re feeling this out thing 4
what do we need? 5
6
Katie Heuser: Definitely something we’ll look into in the feasibility study. I know for the pilots 7
recommended in 2018, we suggested 700 vehicles but we’d have to reassess what that would 8
look like in today’s climate. 9
10
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I suspect a big chunk of it would be people from the train station going the 11
last mile and either they’re going down University or up to Stanford and there’s a lot of people 12
that get off the train in the morning. And I’m afraid that if we have 100 bikes there and we have 13
500 people that they’re going to be gone and so the people who want to take the bike share 14
won’t be able to just because we have such a high demand in certain concentrated locations. I 15
think that’s a really big problem. Cedric mentioned can you reserve a bike and I think that 16
would be a really good feature but it makes it more complicated. Now you want a bike and 17
there’s one there but you can’t use it because someone else has reserved it. So all these things 18
that can add dissatisfaction – if there’s no bike or if there’s a bike there that you can’t use, that 19
both leads to dissatisfaction. What about the safety aspects of it? Would we require helmets? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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1
Katie Heuser: Helmets are – well let me check. So in – let me check what page. 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I think only if you’re [inaudible 3:23:49]... 4
5
Katie Heuser: So they’re on page... 6
7
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...[inaudible 3:23:51]. 8
9
Katie Heuser: ...packet 51. There are a few requirements for what California vehicle code 10
requires for scooter usage. So it’s in that top cell of the scooter table. So legally, minors with 11
learner’s permits or driver’s licenses must wear a helmet. 12
13
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And so do people have to provide their own helmets or they... 14
15
Katie Heuser: I think there are some operators that include helmets, more on kind of Vespa-16
style scooters [that there’s included helmets 3:24:32] but typically, yes, you must bring your 17
own helmet. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
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Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. I could see that being discouraging if people have to bring their own 1
helmet, then you’re not as likely to do it on the – just wing it. What about insurance? Would the 2
City have to... 3
4
Philip Kamhi: I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt. But just a quick comment on the helmets 5
to note that I remember when I first did one of the scooter shares in San Francisco – the 6
company just came online – that when you signed up to start doing the scooter share service, 7
they actually would send you a free helmet. 8
9
Vice Chair Reckdahl: But you have to remem-... 10
11
Philip Kamhi: [Inaudible 3:25:10]... 12
13
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. You have to remember... 14
15
Philip Kamhi: ...[inaudible 3:25:12]. 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...to bring it with you. Right? What about insurance? Would we have to 18
buy a separate policy – the City – or is this just covered as part of the general policy or...? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
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Philip Kamhi: So typically... 1
2
Female: Excellent... 3
4
Philip Kamhi: ...that... 5
6
Female: ...question. 7
8
Philip Kamhi: ...would be carried by the company, not by the City, assuming the City is not 9
operating the service, it’s a company that’s operating the service. 10
11
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And a big problem that used to be up in San Francisco is you go 12
down and there’d be scooters everywhere. You couldn’t go down the sidewalk because you 13
have to step over all the scooters. Has that problem been solved or are we just hoping that it’s 14
not going to be a problem here? 15
16
Katie Heuser: I think it’s something that we are constantly improving on and I think 17
requirements like the lock to a bike rack has been key to decrease that clutter but also it’s 18
establishing the correct number of vehicles really helps to ensure that we aren’t tripping over 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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them and also making sure that operators are accurately distributing vehicles so that they’re 1
not just piled up in one location but are distributed more evenly throughout the service area. 2
3
Sylvia Star-Lack: Just want to add a little bit to that. It is true, however, that when these – and 4
correct me if I’m wrong – when these services start, there is usually a good 3- to 6-month 5
orientation period for the community where people learn where the scooters can be left and so 6
there is an adjustment period. So it’s not to say that we won’t have some of those experiences 7
here but people eventually learn. And now that other communities have them, people who use 8
them in other communities kind of know how to behave. 9
10
Vice Chair Reckdahl: And... 11
12
Philip Kamhi: If I can just quickly just add one more thing. Some of the companies that we’ve 13
talked to have allowed like carrot and stick for parking the scooters in the correct places, so 14
they’ll punish riders that are creating scooter litter. That’s what it’s called. And they’ll also 15
reward people who are parking them in proper spaces. And so that does come down to that 16
question about dockless or docked parking for the vehicles. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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Vice Chair Reckdahl: And do we think that we’re going to have to have a bike wrangler go out 1
every day and reposition it so the next morning you have all the bikes where you want or is it 2
we’ll just let [evolution 3:27:40] occur? 3
4
Katie Heuser: The incentives and disincentives can help but, yes, we will need a team with a car, 5
hopefully electric or hybrid car, to move these vehicles around because just how it works. 6
7
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. 8
9
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 10
11
Commissioner Lu: I am looking forward to this. I will note and disclose that I worked at Bird 12
scooters for 2 years from 2018 to 2020 as a product manager and worked on really all aspects 13
of the app software, government compliance, things like that. And I’ve ridden all kinds of 14
vehicles thousands of times over at least probably a dozen different services. So I have a lot of 15
strong opinions. They are loosely held because it has been 4 years since I’ve really worked in 16
this industry and things change very quickly. I also do not own any shares or have any actual 17
conflicts. I’ll note that as well. I luckily got out of Bird before they went totally bankrupt. So I 18
have a lot of thoughts, thoughts about helmets, thoughts about safety incentives, dock versus 19
dockless. For the purposes of this discussion, would it be helpful if we kind of went through 20
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your slides, went through the kind of big 5 points and commented on each slide or how do we 1
want to organize this? 2
3
Chair Chang: I was just going to have each commissioner go through with a couple rounds of 4
discussion rather than – because I don’t think we’re making decisions per se. It’s just kind of 5
each person’s perspective and I thought it would take too long if we went category by category. 6
7
Commissioner Lu: Okay. That’s fine. One general point about the feasibility study is that it’s 8
really important to get preliminary interest from all the companies and roughly understand 9
what’s on the table. Like Mr. Kamhi mentioned – a lot of what we have discussed, that is nice, 10
like free helmets. That was an interesting experiment that as far as I know is just not really done 11
anywhere anymore. There are a lot of different logistical models where many services will have 12
a strong incentive and will actually rebalance scooter vehicles kind of of their own accord. 13
There will be a wide range of availability in terms of which scooter operators or E-bike 14
operators will even be interested in working with the City. I think the kind of order of 15
operations, like the most important things to clarify are what Stanford actually thinks. The core 16
questions there are obvious. Will they allow scooters on their campus or bikes on their 17
campus? Will they allow bikes or scooters in the Research Park or shopping center or other 18
areas that they own? I think that’s the big framing question. 19
20
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And then the vendors will actually have something to react to and be able to give somewhat 1
cogent proposals and then I think is the time for more community engagement because 2
community engagement too – we need early community engagement but if it’s too early, we 3
could be reacting to things that are just totally not on the table anymore. As far as goals, all of 4
the above – all the things you mentioned are nice goals. I think one thing that we really should 5
try to take a stand on is safety and so as we talk with vendors, things like clarifying their ability 6
for age restrictions so that we could just restrict minors full stop. Some operators I believe still 7
have discounts for selfies with helmets. Inquiring things about that. A lot of operators had kind 8
of software and sensors that tried to detect sidewalk riding and would fine users or slow down 9
vehicles and whether seeing those programs are still on the table is worth doing. And I think 10
fines for parking and like parking in the right of way based on photos that you take after the 11
ride, I think fines for not locking your vehicle – as a personal strong take, I think we should 12
require all vehicles to have some kind of locking mechanism. 13
14
Otherwise we will see a material amount of vehicles just thrown into our channelized creeks, 15
vandalized, so on. But it’s not just locking that’s important. It’s fining users that don’t lock or 16
having the [app 3:32:59] operator fine users who don’t lock their bike or scooter is important. 17
And I think that’s the kind of suite of things that we pull into safety and that should be a kind of 18
important goal in framing for the overall program. Otherwise I don’t really have a strong take 19
on how to prioritize all the other nice things that are built in. The operators will have their own 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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low income and different takes on affordability programs. Beyond that, geographic and social 1
equity is probably a lost cause just given the brutal economics of operating in less dense areas 2
of the city. But no strong takes on the goals otherwise. On service coverage, I think I already 3
talked about Stanford. On device form factor, I think the way that companies have traditionally 4
thought about this is just in terms of the distance that people would plausibly ride. 5
6
That over a mile, bikes and E-bikes become much more desirable and within a shorter [period 7
3:34:11], like within a shorter distance [but 3:34:13] flexing up to a couple of miles, E-scooters 8
are generally a more popular option, a more suitable option [and a 3:34:24] lower impact 9
option. So I think the decision on vehicles hinges to some extent on what Stanford will accept in 10
terms of the [surface 3:34:34] service area and, of course, it depends on what operators still 11
even want to do business in Palo Alto and Stanford. I’ll reserve any comments about the 12
station-based slide that you have. I think it is possible to have effectively pseudo-docked 13
scooter or E-bike programs though where the City can literally define dozens of parking spaces 14
or in city land that are the only places in the city where you can park your vehicle. So I think 15
that’s not quite the same as the hybrid option you described but is something we could put on 16
the table to make things more orderly. That would likely involve taking away dozens, at least, of 17
parking spaces throughout the city though, just in terms of practical limitations from what I’ve 18
seen as people try to implement these pseudo-docked programs. Are you trying to... 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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Sylvia Star-Lack: Yeah. 1
2
Commissioner Lu: ...comment? Okay. 3
4
Sylvia Star-Lack: Sorry. If I can just add to what you just said that last – that state law just 5
clarified that [this 3:35:50] parking space adjacent to every intersection approach is no longer 6
allowed to be parked in by a vehicle but can be used by micromobility. As of January 2024, it’s 7
already state law but January 2025, PD can ticket so those spaces are already available 8
essentially. 9
10
Commissioner Lu: Got it. So that would be every intersection basically in the city... 11
12
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yeah. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: ...you could theoretically draw a little box, paint a little scooter or bike logo 15
and it wouldn’t be competing with other parking? Okay. Got it. At first glance, that seems like a 16
really appealing option to have basically available parking in many places in an orderly way 17
that’s convenient for basically wherever anyone actually wants to walk after they got off their 18
scooter. I think I’ll hold more comments from here. I could go on. Thank you. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa and then Templeton. 1
2
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. So I’m generally in favor of a feasibility study. I think it’s 3
really important that Stanford partner with us or be agreeable to it. Otherwise I don’t know 4
that there’ll be broad enough use to – and our former foray into the bike share thing was kind 5
of a dud and we wouldn’t want to repe-, and pre-COVID there was just like horror stories about 6
giant piles of bikes, so it has a bad reputation. So I’m happy to hear that things are kind of 7
changing. I also think maybe the other location I could see that might have big users is the new 8
neighborhood that we will be creating in San Antonio near 101 because we’re going to have a 9
lot of big buildings there. And I don’t know if schools would use these but – no? Okay. No, 10
Doria, says Sylvia. Anway, another concern I have is that we’ll put a lot of money into a pilot 11
program after we do the feasibility study and the financials won’t be enough for us to continue 12
the program. And I think we should make very sure in the feasibility study that we don’t just 13
have a plan for the startup but a plan to keep it going as a business. 14
15
Female: Palo Alto Link. 16
17
Male: Yes. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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Commissioner Summa: That’s really important to me. The safety is really important to me. 1
Being almost run down by an E-scooter every day practically, I wish that there was a way to 2
make E-scooters when they’re in the street follow the rules of the road. I’m assuming they have 3
to follow like bikes do. And it’s pretty wild in certain areas. Oh, so the state law that you 4
referenced that goes into effect in January, that requires [at 3:39:24] every intersection the first 5
parking spot be available for scooters in business districts or – yeah. Miss Star-Lack is using the 6
nod and [inaudible 3:39:37]. 7
8
Sylvia Star-Lack: [Yes. So it’s 3:39:37] AB 413. AB 413 makes that – it’s actually a daylighting law. 9
It’s a pedestrian safety... 10
11
Female: [Inaudible 3:39:48]. 12
13
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yeah – law. 14
15
Commissioner Summa: That’s great. 16
17
Sylvia Star-Lack: And they’ve... 18
19
Female: [Right 3:39:49]. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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1
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...said that cars cannot park there... 2
3
Female: [Inaudible 3:39:52]. 4
5
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...but micromobility devices can be [inaudible 3:39:55]. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: So it’ll be for mixed-use districts though? 8
9
Female: [Inaudible 3:39:59]. 10
11
Sylvia Star-Lack: It applies... 12
13
Commissioner Summa: Business district. 14
15
Sylvia Star-Lack: ...everywhere statewide in any district. 16
17
Commissioner Summa: Also residential districts? 18
19
Sylvia Star-Lack: Yeah. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
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1
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Excellent. That’s good news. And then is one car-length – the one 2
parking spot length the optimal length to provide the visibility that really makes it safe? It is? 3
Okay. That’s good news. And then... 4
5
Female: [Inaudible 3:40:26]. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Mm-hm. And, oh, I think partnering with Mountain View might be part 8
of that area in San Antonio because Mountain View is going to be developing there a lot also 9
and so maybe there’s a way to do that. So and then I think the feasibility study should have 10
really realistic information about cities the size of Palo Alto and how successful this is and that 11
should definitely be a university town, I think, as long as Stanford is in with us on this. And then 12
I don’t have much of an opinion about the types of vehicles but having a mix sounds good. The 13
other opportunity I think [this is that 3:41:19] people in lower income housing have virtually no 14
storage, so I can see it being really handy for people to use cargo bikes because they wouldn’t 15
have a place to put them and that’s a really – we should definitely include people in lower 16
income housing in our determining interest and potential users in the city because I think that 17
would be really good. And... 18
19
Female: Homekey. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
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2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: ...that’s about it for now. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton? 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. What demographics – like what age ranges did you say 6
this program was targeting? 7
8
Katie Heuser: I didn’t mention an age range. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: There was a heavy headshake around students, so I want to 11
understand what is the lower end and what other parameters have you been looking at. 12
13
Katie Heuser: At least for E-scooters, minors must have a driver’s – or anyone must have a 14
driver’s license or learner’s permit. So it’d be what – 14½, 14 plus? 15
16
Female: Fifteen. 17
18
Katie Heuser: I’m not from California. Fifteen and a half. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Hm. Okay. And have you been looking at this – you may be familiar 1
with Palo Alto’s demographics but we’ve got a very large population over 55. Have you been 2
looking at options that would be suitable for this population? 3
4
Katie Heuser: Yeah. So the seated options, so the seated E-scooter has a lower center of gravity, 5
which I think is more accessible and you feel more stable. I think... 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: What page is that on your presentation? 8
9
Katie Heuser: That is on Slide 17 and I can share again. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah. That’d be helpful. 12
13
Katie Heuser: So I think the seated options – and there’s other accessibility features, like having 14
a basket, that may be more comfortable for older adults [inaudible 3:43:48]. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Which one are you referring to? 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Katie Heuser: So I don’t know if any of these photos have baskets but the seated E-scooters on 1
the top right that have the seat and that one has the basket, the Veo option, may be more 2
comfortable for people with disabilities and older adults but I won’t... 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: But it’s still 2-wheeled. 5
6
Katie Heuser: Right. So it may not be for everyone. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Well you did come for feedback, so that’s my feedback, is that we 9
have a very large elderly population and aged, probably not even elderly is not the right word, 10
but people who want to get around and they want to get around without the trouble of trying 11
to find somewhere to put their car [inaudible 3:44:33] they’d be interested in this. But what I’ve 12
heard talking to them is we don’t necessarily want these 2-wheeled options. We want other 13
options that are more stable. I know they take up more space and maybe we don’t have a lot of 14
vendors that would offer that but just throwing that out there as something to consider 15
because you don’t want to fall and break anything. And in my experience riding on an E-16
scooter, that was a risk. It is not the most stable way to get around. So I would throw that out 17
there. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
And then in another country and so I don’t know whether this was allowed or not, we had some 1
pre-teens that were riding these things and I don’t know if they were allowed to or not but 2
that’s something to consider, is whether they’re allowed to or not, are they going to be able to 3
use these and that’s probably something to do with all the control mechanisms that 4
Commissioner Lu was talking about. And it was nice to see you in your element, by the way. But 5
that’s something to think about as well, is if you’re not intending for young people to use these 6
vehicles, then you might not plan for the inevitable joy ride that may occur. So those are my 7
initial thoughts. Thanks. 8
9
Chair Chang: I guess I’ll go before we go a second round. So as I was thinking about this, I really 10
think about this as a solution for a public transportation last-mile problem, so that’s really 11
exciting. But, oh, the logistics. And so there was something that, I think, a public commenter 12
said about affordability and surge pricing being problematic because if one doesn’t know how 13
much something costs beforehand, then it’s very difficult to plan transportation. And if you 14
think about public transportation, that’s exactly – so I would kind of potentially discourage that 15
just as making it – like if the goal is public transportation, then people need to be able to plan 16
for it. But maybe a reservation system would solve that. I, like the other commissioners, think 17
that Stanford is key and potentially figuring out a way to partner with Mountain View and 18
otherwise if we use city borders as a border, that’s going to be really confusing. Kind of all the 19
way up and down the peninsula, one city just blends right into the next, so we’re going to have 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to figure out how to manage that. I had a question about system type. So there’s something in 1
the report on Packet Page 52 that talked about the percentage of systems that were station 2
based, hybrid or had multiple system types. So what’s the difference between multiple system 3
types versus hybrid? 4
5
Katie Heuser: I believe that refers to maybe they have bikes that are station based but then 6
scooters that were dockless. 7
8
Chair Chang: That makes sense to me. That makes a lot of sense. For different types of devices, 9
different things, I was confused how one type of device could be – how hybrid would be 10
different from different systems. And then in terms of devices, I think there’s been a lot of 11
concern – like when we were doing, [I think 3:48:20] it was the Bike Ped Plan and gathering 12
public feedback and I was reading some of other people’s comments, I saw a lot of concerns 13
about E-bikes and E-bike safety, not just of the E-bike rider but the safety of everybody 14
surrounding them. And so I wonder, because unlike some of the other cities in the area, when 15
you showed the map, it went up to like Belmont and San Mateo – we fortunately in Palo Alto 16
for the most part don’t have that much of a hilly area. And so maybe – I mean I understand that 17
E-bikes and E-scooters are so much easier to use if you’re going more than a mile but I kind of 18
wonder given what I’ve heard – I just hear complaints about E-bikes and E-bikes and E-bikes – 19
that maybe we start not with E-bikes. So that’s just my 2 cents there. And then my question 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
about ownership of this: Is there any nonprofit even option in our area that – it sounded like it 1
was certainly the most preferable option but I don’t think it’s a realistic one. Is that correct? 2
3
Katie Heuser: I don’t know about most preferable. I think we aren’t really sure what that would 4
look like but it’s something we’d look into but – yeah. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. Those are my comments. So on to round 2 then of commissioner comments. 7
We’ve got Reckdahl and then, I think, Commission Lu too. 8
9
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yes. What’s the standard pricing scheme? Is it like a monthly fee and you 10
get all you can eat or is it that you pay per use or per hour? 11
12
Katie Heuser: There are different models. There is the pay as you go, so sometimes there’s an 13
unlocking fee and then every minute or 30 minutes you get charged. Some systems have a 14
monthly fee and then some systems also have an annual fee as well and with that you get 15
maybe 30 minutes free every time you ride. But it really varies by... 16
17
Vice Chair Reckdahl: And there’s not a... 18
19
Katie Heuser: ...vendor and we can also establish... 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...consensus of... 2
3
Katie Heuser: ...our own. 4
5
Vice Chair Reckdahl: ...what seems to work best? 6
7
Katie Heuser: I think having the flexibility has proved to work effectively but – yeah. 8
9
Vice Chair Reckdahl: The monthly fee, I could see that being very attractive because then once 10
you’ve paid that you have this big incentive to use it and so it really may boost ridership but I 11
would be concerned that in order to get enough revenue back you may have to charge a huge 12
monthly fee and that may discourage people. So I’m not sure what’s the best way to organize 13
that and because part of this is convenience but [part of it 3:51:17] also could be saving money. 14
Instead of taking Uber, you can hop on one of these bikes and it’ll be quicker because you have 15
to wait for the Uber driver. The other aspect is low income as Doria mentioned. We already 16
have – for the Enjoy! catalog, you can get certified. You drop in your income tax, [so 3:51:37] 17
you get certified and we use that same certification for Foot Hills Park to get reduced fees and 18
so if we can tap into that already, someone who’s low income doesn’t have to do any work. The 19
City already has that information and they can get lower price bike trips. So that’s all. Thanks. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu? 2
3
Commissioner Lu: I think a more general point I would want to make is about how to find the 4
sweet spot in terms of economic feasibility. Many of these programs when they’re publicly 5
operated require really intense subsidies, which there may not be appetite or funding for. On 6
private programs, they’re often not sustainable full stop and actually having Stanford 7
participate would make it much more likely to be sustainable. And I think there are a few levers 8
we could try to investigate. I think the first thing we should consider is price controls, having 9
agreements with any operator that they agree to prices before they operate. They have some 10
wiggle room to adjust prices but they have to clear that through the City. I think scooter sharing 11
and to some extent bike sharing is no longer a particularly affordable option. In the early days, 12
you could get rides for comparable costs to a bus for like a 10-minute ride or something like 13
that. And now the economics are brutal. The prices are generally several times higher than that. 14
15
Like a 10-minute ride could be $4, $5, $6 and even then many scooter and bike share operators 16
lose a substantial amount of money per ride in certain markets. So I think we have to accept 17
that for the average consumer this is not going to necessarily be a cheap option but can still be 18
a really convenient option that makes a difference between whether they run an errand or do 19
something at all or whether they drive a car at all or whether they decide not to purchase a car 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
because they have that extra bit of flexibility. So I think looking at this as a really cheap form of 1
public transportation is not quite the right perspective. It will likely be moderate, not 2
exorbitantly expensive but moderately priced, like whatever the monthly fee is or whatever the 3
per-ride fee is with the extra subsidies that we and vendors generally can apply for lower 4
income riders. So, like with housing, it’s not going to be affordable except for a small portion 5
that we designate as such. So but that doesn’t mean it’s never worth building – to stretch that 6
analogy. 7
8
So I think one of the key things that we can control though is the number of vehicles and the 9
number of operators. If we can actually have some tighter level of control on prices and some 10
more dedicated staff time, it will be much more sustainable and much more possible to actually 11
have lower prices if you only choose one operator. You want 2 operators ideally to compete but 12
in a market as small as Palo Alto with the really high costs of actually operating a business, it is 13
much less feasible if they are multiple operators. So I think that’s an important decision point as 14
well to evaluate within staff. If we have the bandwidth and ability to really monitor the 15
operators and control their prices, having one operator and giving them a natural monopoly is 16
really scary but potentially one of the few levers we have to make it a little bit more affordable. 17
18
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: I was just thinking back to my former employer who operated a 1
pretty hefty bike share program that was completely subsidized and didn’t use heavy 2
equipment with batteries or engines or anything and it was really nice and covered a 3
substantial size campus, certainly not the same size as our city but if we think about some of 4
these corridors we’re focused on and where the traffic goes. The thing is that there were a lot 5
of thefts. I saw these bikes in my neighborhood miles away from the campus. There’s a 6
relatively good likelihood that the bike that you might pick first could need maintenance. So I 7
think even if we’re not taking equipment and docking cost into account, it’s really hard to keep 8
a program like this going. And even in that case, it was very focused on a very active, young 9
demographic and not on a variety of people. So I think those are your challenges and I don’t 10
think that our staff can solve all of those, even all of our staff [even if it wasn’t 3:57:21] just 11
your project and I know you’re working with other people but it’s a big, big task and it’s worth 12
investigating. 13
14
But I think we’re going to end up with a lot of questions. But I would encourage you to reach 15
out to programs like – surely there is a person or 20 who runs that program at Google and you 16
can take a look and see what have you learned, what would you recommend. I know one of my 17
former co-workers at Google has now started a gondola company, so we could get a gondola 18
going here. Anyway, I jest. But I just want to say that it was really nice to have that program 19
available and to be able to just grab a bike and there was always a bike. I never had to walk 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
more than 1 or 2 buildings over to get the bike and there was a nice bike lane and we could go 1
safely [and there’s 3:58:22] a box of helmets. It was it was a really nice, safe place to do that. 2
And I love the vision that we’re talking about but it’s you got a big challenge ahead of you. 3
Thanks. 4
5
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa? 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Well, I was just going to say that based on my last 2 colleagues’ 8
comments, it’s sounding less feasible and it’s very disappointing to hear Commissioner Lu say, 9
who was in the industry, that, like housing, this won’t be able to provide affordability. So that’s 10
pretty sobering. And to Commissioner Templeton’s point, I think things like this work better in a 11
corporate structure than in a city structure. And the last thing I’ll say, because so many things 12
have been mentioned already, is that I also really worry about the staff time with this because 13
our staff is, especially Transportation and Planning, I think, are the departments that are really, 14
really always overworked and understaffed, so I’m really worried that under any of the 3 15
scenarios that this would become a huge project for staff to manage. So thank you. 16
17
Chair Chang: I see that Commissioner Lu has a light on but I do have a couple thoughts. 18
19
Commissioner Lu: [Inaudible 3:59:55]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Did you want to...? 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Oh, just very quick thought. I was going to chime in that affordability is 4
relative. Several dollars for a bike ride or a scooter ride across town can still be cheaper than 5
the equivalent Uber option. I’m just saying it’s not like the really exciting time when things were 6
actually at the price or even cheaper than a bike ride anymore. We’re not going back to that 7
reality when it was really affordable for everyone. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. So that was going to be part of my comment, which is I think that staff 10
should look – as part of the feasibility study, it sounds like the economics of this as well and 11
staffing goes with economics is going to be a huge part of this – and that using kind of an Uber 12
ride or ride share service as a threshold because if it’s any more expensive than that, then it’s 13
not going to work. And so I think that’s a good threshold. Also, when we think about 14
subsidizing, where would we want to subsidize versus not subsidize? So for example, the 15
Homekey area, that might make a lot of sense to subsidize. And then how much is it worth it to 16
the City to do that? 17
18
And then, finally, there was a comment early on about making sure that this would be 19
sustainable beyond – as we make plans for our pilot program, understanding kind of what the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
thresholds would be for it to be sustainable beyond the pilot program because if we know that 1
we’re never going to reach that threshold, then again we might not want to do the pilot 2
program. And then the final point I had was Stanford also has had some departments that have 3
bike share and so they have a lot of expertise and information on this as well. And given that we 4
would likely be partnering with them, they would know a lot about their specific type of rider, 5
which is probably also our specific type of rider. So that’s it for my comments. And I see no 6
lights. So staff did you get enough from us on this? Wonderful. Okay. So we’re going to close 7
out this item. 8
9
Approval of Minutes 10
4. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim Minutes of 11
August 14, 2024 12
13
5. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim & Summary 14
Minutes of August 28, 2024 15
16
17
6. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim & Summary 18
Minutes of September 11, 2024 19
20
Chair Chang: I think our next item is approval of minutes. Let me check. Correct. And we have 21
our next agenda item is approval of minutes. So we need to approve 1-2-3 sets of minutes. 22
23
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I move approval of draft verbatim minutes of August 14 as revised. 24
25
Female: Second. 26
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Female: Second. 2
3
Chair Chang: Oh... 4
5
Female: [Inaudible 4:02:57]. 6
7
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa seconds. And are we allowed to take a voice vote? 8
[Inaudible 4:0:02]. All in favor? 9
10
Male: Aye. 11
12
Male: Aye. 13
14
Female: Aye. 15
16
Chair Chang: All opposed? Any abstentions? Okay. That passes unanimously. So now on to the 17
draft verbatim and summary minutes of August 28. 18
19
MOTION PASSED 6 20
21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commission Action: Motion by Reckdahl, second Summa. Pass 6-0 1
2
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I so move as revised. 3
4
Commissioner Akin: Second. 5
6
Chair Chang: Any discussion? All in favor? 7
8
Male: Aye. 9
10
Male: Aye. 11
12
Female: Aye. 13
14
Chair Chang: Any opposed? Any abstentions? 15
16
Commissioner Summa: Yes, I have to abstain. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. So that one passes 5-0-1. And then for the final set of minutes for draft 19
verbatim and summary minutes for September 11, 2024? 20
21
MOTION PASSED 5-0-1 (Summa abstained) 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commission Action: Motion by Reckdahl, Akin second. Pass 6-0 2
3
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I so move as revised. 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Second. 6
7
Chair Chang: All in favor? 8
9
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Aye. 10
11
Female: Aye. 12
13
Female: Aye. 14
15
Chair Chang: Any opposed? Any abstentions? Okay. That one passes unanimously. 16
17
MOTION PASSED 6 18
19
Commission Action: Motion by Reckdahl, Akin second. Pass 6-0 20
21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Questions, Comments or Announcements 1
Chair Chang: So now on to commissioner questions, comments, announcements or future 2
meetings and agendas. And I do have one announcement to make. So last Monday, I believe it 3
was – it feels like a really long time ago. Yes. I think on the 20th it was, I went to City Council to 4
present our work plan really late because it’s 6 months after we created the work plan. But 5
they finally have gotten around to it and they approved it. The one thing that they asked us to 6
do – so one of our goals was about area plans and the one piece of feedback from a couple of 7
the Council members was that we should look at what worked and didn’t work for past 8
planning efforts, like the NVCAP or SOFA – those were the 2 examples that were mentioned – 9
and try and learn from those so that we can do what’s effective versus what doesn’t work as 10
well. That was my... 11
12
Female: [Inaudible 4:05:20]. 13
14
Chair Chang: It was to PTC so – but I think that’s going to obviously have to be done with staff’s 15
assistance but we can remember to ask for that. And then otherwise, there weren’t really any 16
comments from Council. Anything else anybody else wants to add? Commissioner Summa? 17
18
Commissioner Summa: I was going to mention that staff had a community meeting for the 19
Crescent Park parking – traffic calming, I mean, and Commissioner Reckdahl and I were able to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
attend that last night. And it seems like there’s some improvements and they’re going to go 1
back to – at the end of this year or – they’re at 60 percent engineering now. They’re aiming to 2
be at 90 percent engineering the next time they go out to the neighborhood. And there were a 3
fair number of community members there. So that’s all. 4
5
Chair Chang: When is it supposed to make it to us if...? 6
7
Male: [Inaudible 4:06:26]. 8
9
Commissioner Summa: I think they said probably January, I believe. 10
11
Vice Chair Reckdahl: I thought it was a little later than that but... 12
13
Commissioner Summa: Well... 14
15
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Early next year. 16
17
Commissioner Summa: ...‘25. 18
19
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 20
21
Commissioner Summa: Next year. 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to ten (10) minutes at the discretion of the Chair,
provided that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. Anybody else? All right. 2
3
Adjournment 4
Chair Chang: This meeting is adjourned. 5
6
Male: [Happy Halloween] [inaudible 4:06:46]. 7
8
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Happy Halloween. 9
10
/lo 11