HomeMy WebLinkAbout2024-08-28 Planning & Transportation Commission Verbatim Minutes_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Planning & Transportation Commission 1
Verbatim Minutes: August 28, 2024 2
Council Chambers & Virtual 3
6:00 PM 4
5
Call to Order / Roll Call 6
6:00 PM 7
8
ROLL CALL 9
Chair Chang: Hello. Good evening everyone. I’d like to call to order this regular meeting of the 10
Planning and Transportation on Wednesday, August 28, 2024. Ms. Dao, could you please call 11
the roll? 12
13
Administrative Associate Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 14
15
Chair Chang: Present. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Here. 20
21
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Here. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Here. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 8
9
Commissioner Lu: Here. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 12
13
Chair Chang: I just received a message saying that she will be absent. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Okay. Absent. Commissioner Templeton? 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: I’m here remote. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton, I believe you are remote because of just cause. If you 1
could just confirm that you are in the room by yourself. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: I am in the room isolating by myself. 4
5
Chair Chang: Thank you. We’re very sorry that you are isolating. All right. Thank you. Okay. So 6
our first item of business tonight is public comment for items that are not on the agenda. Are 7
there any speaker cards or raised hands on line? 8
Oral Communications 9
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 10
11
Veronica Dao: I have no requests to speak. 12
13
Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions 14
The Chair or Commission majority may modify the agenda order to improve meeting management. 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. Wonderful. So then the next item – do we have any Agenda Changes, 17
Additions and Deletions? I don’t know if staff has anything to – I’m getting nos. Okay. Then 18
great. Onto City Official Reports. So if you’d like to take it away. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
City Official Reports 1
1. Directors Report, Meeting Schedule and Assignments 2
3
Long Range Planning Manager Coleman Frick: Sure. Good evening. So I’m Coleman Frick, Long 4
Range Planning Manager filling in for Amy French as the liaison this evening And we also have 5
our director, Jonathan Lait, available on Zoom. 6
7
Chair Chang: Can you speak closer to the… 8
9
Coleman Frick: Oh, sorry. 10
11
Chair Chang: …microphone? Thank you. 12
13
Coleman Frick: Do you want me to repeat that or… 14
15
Chair Chang: I think we got it. 16
17
Coleman Frick: Okay. And then we also have Nathan Baird with the Office of Transportation 18
who’s available as well to provide some information. So just want to go over this upcoming 19
meeting schedule for the PTC. So on September 11th, we have one item on the agenda, which is 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
70 Encina. And then we have three items that are listed for the September 25th agenda. And 1
three items listed in the sort of upcoming future agendas in October and November. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. Does Mr. Baird, have any – oh, you’re still going. 4
5
Coleman Frick: And then for upcoming Council items that pertain to PTC review, the slide shows 6
some of those items. And the first one in September is in italics because it may change to 7
October. And then… 8
9
Office of Transportation Parking Manager Nathan Baird: There we go. Good evening all. It’s 10
good to be here. I am filling in for Rafael. Originally, we were going to have a couple parking 11
items – a parking item and a Palo Alto LINK data review but we pushed those back a little bit, 12
but I’m still here. I had one update from Rafael about some Caltrain work that is happening on 13
the Churchill crossing near Alma. They have a temporary sidewalk closure there with a 14
pedestrian detour to the southside of Churchill. They expect to have that finished next week. 15
That was it. 16
17
Chair Chang: Is that it? 18
19
Nathan Baird: That is it. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Any questions from the Commission? Okay. Seeing no lights, we’re going to move 2
on to the next agenda item. So tonight on our agenda, we have two things that have been 3
continued from our last meeting and we are taking these items as separate agenda items even 4
though they were initially posted for the very time as a single item. So the items as written on 5
the agenda are to recommend the City Council adopt the draft ordinances updating the Palo 6
Alto Municipal Code Chapter 18.40 and Section 18.40.250 on lighting and adding a new section 7
18.40.280 for Bird-Friendly Design. So we are going to take the first item – the first topic on 8
lighting first, have that discussion, vote on it, and then we will discuss the Bird-Friendly Design. 9
So last time, we took public comment, and so at this time – so my understanding is there’s not 10
going to be an updated staff presentation. Is that correct? 11
12
Senior Planner Kelly Cha: That’s correct. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. So last time, we heard the staff presentation and then took public comment 15
and said that we would open it up this time for any members of the public who did not already 16
speak at the last meeting and would like to speak. So do we have any speaker cards regarding 17
the lighting item? 18
19
Action Items 20
Public Comment is Permitted. Five (5) minutes per speaker. 21
22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
2. Recommend the City Council Adopt the Draft Ordinances Updating Palo Alto 1
Municipal Code (PAMC) (4a) Chapter 18.40 (General Standards and Exceptions) 2
Section 18.40.250 (Lighting) and (4b) Adding a New Section 18.40.280 (Bird-Friendly 3
Design). 4
5
Veronica Dao: Yes, just one from Shani Kleinhaus. 6
7
Chair Chang: I believe we heard from Shani Kleinhaus. 8
9
Veronica Dao: She spoke on the bird. 10
11
Male: [Inaudible 14:56]. 12
13
Chair Chang: Oh, not on the… 14
15
Veronica Dao: Yes. 16
17
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you for reminding me. Okay. Please come on up, Ms. Kleinhaus. 18
19
Shani Kleinhaus: It’s a little different. Mostly the same. So thank you, Chair Chang and 20
Commissioners. Dash spoke to most of the – what is on this handout already last time but we 21
added one recommendation. So I hope that tonight you will look into our Sierra Club and 22
Audubon recommendations and include them in the motion that will move forward to City 23
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Council for lighting. The one thing that we added is similar to Cupertino that light should not be 1
visible above 3 feet of a public right of way. This comes from the fact that sometimes you’ll 2
have lighting that really kind of blinds people walking in the street. There’s one of those lights in 3
my street that has been quite disturbing, so hopefully that will be included as well. And just to 4
remind you that lighting is a pervasive disturbance to natural ecosystems at all level from the 5
cellular level to the organism to ecosystem – to communities and ecosystems and in its impact, 6
it's similar to climate change but it’s a lot easier to fix. So thank you for your help on this issue. 7
Thank you. One more thing. Dash, last time, when he spoke, he suggested that you move the 8
lighting forward but not the Bird-Safe Design. I repeat that request. 9
10
Chair Chang: Thank you, Ms. Kleinhaus. Are there any other speaker cards or anything on line? 11
12
Veronica Dao: No, just the one. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. So then at this time I think we will bring it back to the Commission for 15
– oh, yeah. Staff? 16
17
Coleman Frick: Oh, just one thing I want to mention based on my understanding is that I don’t 18
believe that there were questions on the staff’s presentation at the last meeting before it was 19
continued. So we also have the presentation slides available if there’s anything we want to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
revisit if there’s questions from the Commission on those slides or staff’s presentation from the 1
last meeting. 2
3
Chair Chang: Perfect. Thank you. That’s a good segway into what I was just about to say. So it’d 4
be great if we could pull – to get the staff presentation ready because at this point, we did not 5
do clarifying questions from the Commission to staff regarding the presentation. So I would like 6
to start off with that and see if there are any clarifying questions from the Commission, and if 7
you have anything, please raise your hand or push your light. All right. Let’s start with 8
Commissioner Akin. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I have about a half dozen here. Packet Page 22, 11
Section C3, which discusses when installation of new fixtures triggers applicability. Fixtures can 12
be replaced as part of ordinary maintenance. So is it your intent to apply the ordinance in that 13
case as well as in the more obvious cases like upgrades? 14
15
Kelly Cha: So that was initial intention. So – because it’s outdoor lighting and if there’s any 16
changes to the outdoor lighting, that may be – it’s the time that they can upgrade and comply 17
with the new standards but that’s definitely up to the Planning and Transportation Commission 18
to discuss and modify if [it wishes to 19:02]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. I bring that up just because it’s not obvious to me what the trigger 1
event will be that causes an evaluation of the change. So you might want to think about 2
whether that needs to be clarified. Also on Packet Page 22, E1D, this is no direct off-site glare 3
from a light source. We are moving towards a lot more use of rooftops, so the question is how 4
does this apply on the case of roof top lighting? 5
6
Kelly Cha: So generally, the Dark Sky Ordinance principle, they’re – the main – I guess the point 7
is that they want to minimize the uplighting, so that’s why the shielded lighting is there. But we 8
do have – so some of those – we have some of exceptions listed here. Low-voltage outdoor 9
lighting. So usually, the rooftop is used for recreational purposes or they have some outdoor 10
like landscaping lightings. So those are − some of those low-voltage landscape lights are 11
[inaudible 20:14] included as an exception. So for – I guess as long as they have a shielded light 12
if it’s not outdoor landscaping lighting, it might be okay but that’s also something that the 13
Commission can discuss and make modifications if needed. 14
15
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, the concern I have is for applications like rooftop bars or other well-16
lit activities for which lighting is likely to be visible from a wide range. And I think that may need 17
to be thought about a little more carefully. Packet Page 23, E3B – let’s see. That is the foot 18
candle standard at the property line. So I like the way this is expressed. And we can certainly 19
talk about what the appropriate illumination level should be. But it seems to me that simply 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
using a lumen rating of the light source would be a lot easier to enforce because you just need 1
to look at the rating for the lamp rather than go out there at night and take a measurement in 2
the field. And in fact, lumens are already used in the ordinance in a number of other places as 3
the criteria like E1E, Roman numeral 1, on the same page. So I was curious as to how you 4
decided that a foot candle measurement was going to be easier for enforcement. That’s the 5
justification used in the analysis. 6
7
Kelly Cha: The foot candle is used usually in planning. So when development application is 8
submitted, they usually provide a lighting plan, which includes foot candle information. So 9
those are some of the prac-, usual practice and information we usually review. That’s why 10
we’ve decided to continue that information but that’s also – it’s also possible that we can 11
switch that back to lumens if the Commission wishes to. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Okay. So the usual policy is you don’t actually go make a measurement in 14
the field. You use the plans that are submitted as the computation for this. 15
16
Kelly Cha: So that will be something that they would have to submit as part of their application. 17
And so we’ll have a record of that. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you for that clarification. Page 24, E4D, Roman numeral 3. This 1
concerns solar-powered pathway lights. And we’re doing a great job of acquiring all of our 2
electricity from green sources these days and one might expect that we’ll get even better at it. 3
So why only solar-powered pathway lights? Why doesn’t this apply on all cases? The luminosity 4
limit could be all that matters regardless of the power source. 5
6
Kelly Cha: I might have to get back to you on that one and then follow up on that. 7
8
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. Packet Page 25, Section F3. This is gasoline service 9
stations. And the obvious question is does this apply to EV charging stations as well and, if not, 10
why not? 11
12
Kelly Cha: Sorry. Could you – so for the gasoline service station lighting section? 13
14
Commissioner Akin: Packet Page 25, Section F3. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Chair, if I may ask Mr. Akin what packet is he using because it 17
doesn’t match this week’s packet. I haven’t been able to follow along with his numbers. 18
19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Oh, I’m sorry. This is what – I’m using the numbers that I got from the e-1
mailed Commission document. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton, it matches with the most recent packet that I received 4
that was delivered on Thursday, I think. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: And the Packet Page… 7
8
Chair Chang: Yes. The packet page is – seems to be correct. If it – it’s kind of – I mean… 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. I think I may be confusing the issue by using the entire designation 11
for the section. Like in this case, the F for F3 is actually on Packet Page 24. The section just 12
extends over 2 pages. 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: There could be – I may have the wrong packet. I don’t know. It’s not 15
matching at all. Okay. Thank you. Sorry about the interruption. 16
17
Commissioner Hetchman: If Commissioner Templeton’s packet numbers are in the 140 range – 18
if they are, then that’s the last packet and to get to this packet, you just subtract 121. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 25:30]. So it’s really helpful. [Don’t 25:34] worry about it. 1
I’ll try and follow along. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. 4
5
Commissioner Akin: All right. At any rate, Section F3, to repeat, the requirements for gasoline 6
service stations, do they apply to electric vehicle charging stations and, if not, why not? 7
8
Kelly Cha: Yes, it can be applied to those charging stations, so we can change the title so that it 9
applies to both. 10
11
Commissioner Akin: Thank you. I think that would be helpful because it was a little surprising. 12
All right. Last one. Packet Page 26, Section G2. 13
14
Female: Twenty-six. G2. 15
16
Commissioner Akin: This is the subjective standard for prohibiting lighting that unnecessarily 17
illuminates any other lot and some other criteria. And the question I had here was why is this 18
not an objective measure like the one in E3B where a similar case is handled with… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: I’m sorry. Could you repeat that – the page number of the packet. 1
2
Commissioner Akin: So the question is about Packet Page 26, Section G2, which says lighting 3
that unnecessarily illuminates any other lot or substantially interferes with the use or 4
enjoyment of that lot is prohibited. And I was worried that this was so subjective that… 5
6
Female: [Inaudible 27:10]. 7
8
Commissioner Akin: …it could lead to a difficulty. And in fact, elsewhere in the ordinance, you 9
do use objective measures and the one that came to mind right away was E3B, which is on 10
Packet Page 23. That’s the one-half foot candle measurement at the abutting property line. So 11
why the subjective measure rather than just another objective measure like you used 12
elsewhere? 13
14
Kelly Cha: I think we might have been trying to capture a wide variety of reasons. But we can 15
definitely consider adding objective measurement or also – we can also remove that particular 16
provision. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, I guess – well I may have to refrain from making a suggestion at this 1
point, but any rate, it was – it struck me as different from the other cases, so it was worth 2
asking about. Thank you. That’s all I have. 3
4
Chair Chang: I’m not seeing other lights, so I guess I’ll go right now. And then in the meantime, 5
people can hit their light if they would like to speak. So I will be using the old packet from last 6
time. So I need to subtract 121, is that correct? 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. So old Packet 131, which I think means Packet Page 10. So my question 11
about the lighting ordinance is how – and the 3,000 Kelvin recommendation is that it – does it 12
conflict with other regulations, such as safety regulations that there may be, and if so, what – 13
where – I’m just wondering where there may or may not be a conflict in how we would address 14
it. 15
16
Kelly Cha: I don’t think it’s necessarily a conflict. So we have initially thought about 2700 Kelvin, 17
but then after initial research into – in discussion with other departments, we have found out 18
that their preference is 4,000 Kelvin for their operation and surveillance reasons. So – but we 19
still wanted to be consistent with the principles of the Dark Sky Ordinance or principle, so − that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
we were trying to kind of gauge which way to go. Four thousand was a little bit too bright for 1
Dark Sky principles. But we’ve seen other cities had 3,000 Kelvin, so maybe that was a bit 2
balanced and chose 3,000 instead of 2,700. But that it is something that Planning and 3
Transportation Commission can discuss and make modifications as needed. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. Are there OSHA regulations in specific situations that might require a 6
brighter… 7
8
Kelly Cha: I think for surveillance reasons – so for police and fire, they might prefer brighter 9
colors – I mean brighter temperature because of their surveillance reason and operations. But 10
that’s what we’ve heard from the fire department. 11
12
Chair Chang: Okay. 13
14
Kelly Cha: Four thousand. 15
16
Chair Chang: But to your knowledge, there’s no like federal requirements for example? 17
18
Kelly Cha: No, I don’t believe so but I can follow up and find out. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. I think it would just – yeah. Another question I have is on Packet Page, I 1
think, 13. So old Packet Page 134. So it mentioned that ARB had suggested creating a light- 2
sensitive area designation similar to the bird-sensitive area designation and I just wanted to 3
find out what staff’s reaction was to that idea. 4
5
Kelly Cha: Right. So I think that was a good idea. So we have actually considered – staff 6
considered it. It was just that compared to bird-sensitive, there was no actual threshold that we 7
can actually follow. It was difficult to identify what would be sensitive − light sensitive, what 8
would be light insensitive. So the threshold was kind of difficult to find the data source. So we 9
have we have decided to forego that idea. But if that’s something that Commissioners would 10
like to – would like the staff to consider that, that’s something that we can take some time. But 11
it might be a little bit difficult because we don’t have that kind of data. For bird-sensitive, there 12
were other ordinances that actually had the research done and found the distance − 13
appropriate distance. So it was easier to kind of identify those thresholds but for lighting, it’s 14
kind of difficult. 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. That’s just good background for us all. Okay. Next question is on 17
Packet Page 14 − old Packet Page 135. I just wanted some education on lumens versus foot 18
candles because I had the same question that Commissioner Akin did, which is I just remodeled 19
my house and all the light fixtures tell me how many lumens there are but they don’t tell me 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
how many foot candles there are. So can you just educate me because I don’t really know what 1
the difference is. 2
3
Kelly Cha: Well I’m not a lighting expert but I’ll try my best. So my understanding is that foot 4
candle is basically the number, so like one foot candle means one lumen on a foot − square 5
foot. Yeah. So that’s the foot candle. So that’s sort of – I guess it’s associated with lumens as 6
well. We’ve just explained in a staff report and previously also orally, it’s just something that we 7
always get with the lighting plan. So it’s a lot – staff thought it might be easier to just continue 8
that practice but obviously the Commission can have some modifications to that. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. On the same page, staff had – staff has included in the ordinance 11
that motion sensors would deactivate after a maximum of 10 minutes. And I was looking at the 12
model ordinance that was proposed and it had suggested 5 minutes. Could you tell me why 13
staff thought 10 was better than 5? 14
15
Kelly Cha: So we had looked at multiple ordinances throughout the cities. There are 5 minutes 16
from the ordinance – model ordinance. Other cities had 15 minutes also, so we were looking at 17
the range and we just kind of chose the average. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Split the difference. Got it. Okay. And then – yeah. That’s it. So next we’re going to 1
have Commissioner Reckdahl and then Commissioner Hechtman. And then Commissioner Lu. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Back on the new Packet Page 25, this is the gas service station 4
lighting Commissioner Akin talked about. What’s – they talk about 12.5-foot candles. What’s – I 5
went down the street and looked at a current − what’s a current typical service station at these 6
days? How bright would it be if I measured it today? 7
8
Kelly Cha: Staff is not aware of that but we can – I can follow back – follow up and… 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, because I’m just curious… 11
12
Kelly Cha: …confirm that information. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: …how onerous is this for the gas station? If they’re all at 13, this is not a 15
big deal. If they’re all at 25, then this may really change things. Okay. What do other cities have 16
for their Dark Skies? 17
18
Kelly Cha: So this is basically – we’ve looked at the model ordinance in other cities [inaudible 19
35:14]. We mainly looked at the Cupertino’s ordinance as a base and then looked at other cities 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to kind of compare. So I think it’s a similar – if it’s not the same − I can just confirm that. The 1
12.5 is basically… 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Is typical? 4
5
Kelly Cha: …typical. Yeah. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And what about – this is one specific outdoor business but we also 8
have like car dealerships or drive-thrus or other areas where business is outside. Why do we 9
just do it at service stations and not a broader… 10
11
Kelly Cha: Those will be included as part of the non-residential. So the – if it’s – the dealership 12
will be basically treated like any other commercial or non-residential buildings. But if the 13
Commission thinks that it needs a special purpose lighting section for the dealerships or any 14
other particular use, that can be also discussed and staff can come back with some additional 15
information as well. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So what… 18
19
Kelly Cha: Typic-… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: ..is the… 2
3
Kelly Cha: Typically, the gas stations have brighter lights because they often operate 24 hours. 4
And so we wanted to make sure that that is something that we discuss and make sure that 5
that’s also somehow, if not completely consistent, at least have some standards, so that they 6
can operate but also… 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So what is the constraint on car dealership? 9
10
Kelly Cha: We don’t have a special use or a special section for car dealerships, so it’ll be just 11
treated as any other non-residential… 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 14
15
Kelly Cha: …buildings. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: And what’s the lumen on that? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: We don’t have lumens. The 3,000 Kelvin would be − and then we have a foot candle 1
information. So any [inaudible 37:07] the lighting guidelines, the standards, shielding, height, 2
illumination level, and the curfew, all those will apply to car dealerships as well. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And so would we consider doing the – instead of gasoline service 5
station, have any 24-hour business or any – have hours or something where this would apply 6
to? 7
8
Kelly Cha: Unless they have – we don’t – I can definitely confirm that this information − whether 9
the gas stations have a close of business time as part of their approval. But it will be – if not, it 10
will be 10:00 PM unless we have it specified in our ordinance. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. So this section applies to all service stations regardless if they’re 24 13
hours or not? 14
15
Kelly Cha: So this section is based – sorry. So this section is – applies to – this is a special 16
purpose lighting. So this is – it will – if on this − it is listed in the particular section, they are 17
expected to comply with the other citywide – other sections – other requirements in the 18
ordinance. So for example, the light fixtures and [inaudible 38:27] in those kinds of the – like 19
foot candles are listed there, which are different from the previous provisions. So if we would 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
like to – and then we don’t have any particular time curfew here. If we think – if the curfew is 1
needed, we can definitely add that information there. But otherwise, it will be just following the 2
other previous provisions that’s listed in the ordinance. Is that clear? 3
4
Coleman Frick: If I can try to help clarify. So there’s other sections of the code that regulate 5
business hours or as… 6
7
Chair Chang: Speak closer. 8
9
Coleman Frick: Sorry. There’s other sections of the code that regulate business hours or like as 10
indicated in a use permit or something like that. So it kind of depends on what the outdoor use 11
may be and what those regulations are elsewhere in the code. The reason that I think service 12
stations are called out specifically, which seems to be part of your question, is that it is a 13
business that typically operates at hours where lighting would be required and lighting is 14
necessary for the function of the business outdoors at – in the evenings. So a car dealership is a 15
little bit different than that in some cases. I guess maybe different times of the year, it could be 16
slightly different but in order for the typical operations to occur for a service station, typically 17
there needs to be lighting. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. Maybe I’m just being pedantic here, but to me it seems like 7-1
Elevens or something – what would be different between a 7-Eleven 24 hours a day and a gas 2
station 24 hours a day? And maybe… 3
4
Coleman Frick: So I think if it’s a 7-Eleven where it’s not associated with a gas station, then you 5
don’t really need to be outside of the building to be a patron of the 7-Eleven. If you’re using gas 6
– like if you’re pumping gas at a service station, that occurs outdoors and so lighting is sort of a 7
more sensitive issue because it can’t be contained necessarily within the building itself. 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. 10
11
Chair Chang: Is that it Commissioner? Okay. Commissioner Hechtman. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. So let’s start on Packet Page 22 where the term in Section 14
E1A, “fully shielded” – I think I saw in the staff presentation an example of fully and partially 15
shielded. Could you pull that back up? So fully shielded is either better or best, correct? Okay. 16
So I’m going to use for some of these questions the example of my house and my current porch 17
light, all right? Which is basically a glass box about the size of a loaf of bread and inside that 18
glass box, it has two of these bulbs; these are 40 watt teardrop bulbs. All right? So in standing 19
outside, you can see through the glass to the bulb. Right? So that is not fully shielded, is it? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: That’s not fully shielded. 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. So under this ordinance, there will be circumstances 4
where I – if I replace that fixture, I’m going to have to replace it with something that is fully 5
shielded? 6
7
Kelly Cha: Yes. If the applicability doesn’t change, that would be the case. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Next question. So these – my current porch light – if I stand out 10
on the sidewalk today, I can see it directly with my eyes and intentionally so. That’s really kind 11
of its purpose. So when we look on Packet Page 20 – and I don’t have to – incidentally, my [eyes 12
42:41] are about 5½ feet above ground. I haven’t bent down to 3 feet, but I’m pretty sure if I 13
did I could still see the bulbs directly. So when we look on Packet Page 22, E Subpart 1D, no 14
direct off-site glare from a light source shall be visible above 3 feet at the public right of way. So 15
is the fact that you can see my bulb above 3 feet, standing on the street in front of my house, is 16
that going to make my house violate the ordinance? 17
18
Coleman Frick: So I think the way that it’s written, my understanding of the intent, is that it’s 19
about the light itself spilling off a – beyond a certain threshold, not the visibility of like the light 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
source like specifically. But sort of how far the light is passing. But I think that Ms. Cha might be 1
able to provide some additional detail. 2
3
Kelly Cha: I – yeah. That’s correct. As you can see from the illustration there − that we’re talking 4
about the lighting that’s spilling out, so that’s what the intention is. Not the actual light source 5
itself. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Well – but the only reason I can see the light from the street is that 8
the light is traveling to me. Right? So it seems like while I don’t yet have an obligation to replace 9
it maybe – I’m going to have more questions, I might be in violation. 10
11
Coleman Frick: I think where it’s tricky to sort of answer the question in that way is that not 12
knowing exactly where the height of the light is versus sort of where it’s being viewed from. I 13
think it’s – it can be a little bit more tricky to sort of do a scenario… 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 16
17
Coleman Frick: …like in all cases in a similar manner. Because depending on sort of the 18
elevation or the height of the light fixture or where someone’s looking from, it can change the 19
context a little bit. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So when we come back around to discussions, not questions, 2
maybe we’ll talk about how we can clarify this language so that it’s not confusing and site 3
specific. Okay. Packet Page 23. We’ve heard a couple of references to the – let’s see. It’s Section 4
E3, illumination level. A couple of the Commissioners asked about the 3,000 Kelvin. I just want 5
to make sure I understand. My impression from the staff report and your comments today is 6
that police and fire are not desirous of that 3,000 Kelvin standard. They would prefer for safety 7
reasons, 4,000 Kelvin. Am I understanding that right? 8
9
Kelly Cha: That’s correct. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Do you have more? 12
13
Kelly Cha: And then – I mean there’s always a way to kind of go around − is to establish some 14
exceptions if that’s needed. For example, there may be some needs for exceptions for private 15
properties maybe for security lighting purposes. So if that’s the case, we can definitely lower it 16
or have some additional exception language to accommodate that as well. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. Next question. Still on Packet Page 23, Subpart 4, 1
which is lighting control A. It’s a curfew, 10:00 PM curfew, right? So my porch light. Does this 2
provision require me to turn off my porchlight at 10:00 PM at night? 3
4
Kelly Cha: That’s correct. So we’ve changed it after ARB meeting. So we initially had applicable – 5
there’s additional information here if you compare with me. You don’t have to compare but 6
from the ARB ordinance to PTC ordinance, there’s some changes because previously at the ARB 7
meeting, the representative from the Sierra Club has said that maybe it’s something that we 8
can easily do without having too much cost burden to all of the residents in the City of Palo 9
Alto. So we have added the language here that not – so it’ll – the curfew will be applying to 10
everything unlike the applicability only applies – that says that new construction, substantial 11
remodel, and fixture replacement for new ones. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 14
15
Kelly Cha: But yes, 10:00 PM curfew will apply. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. And then next page 24, exceptions, number D1, one little I, 18
there’s an exception for building entrance, which my front door is, if they’re required to be 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
illuminated after 10:00 PM by the California Building Code or State law. So I don’t believe there 1
is a State law or building code requiring my front door to be lit after 10:00 PM, is there? 2
3
Kelly Cha: I don’t – we can definitely confirm that information and follow up. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: No. 6
7
Kelly Cha: I don’t think there is. Yeah. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. So that means that the curfew would apply to… 10
11
Kelly Cha: To… 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: …my house. 14
15
Kelly Cha: …[inaudible 48:19] building. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. Okay. Packet Page 25, the very last line on the page, the 18
distance between nighttime lighting and the riparian corridor of a stream should be maximized. 19
So does that mean that when I’m anywhere near a riparian corridor of a stream and I want to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
build a new house, I have to build that house as far from the stream as possible so that the 1
lighting for that house is as far from the stream as possible? 2
3
Kelly Cha: So according to the language right now, that’s probably not as objective as it should 4
be. As you – as the Planning Commission – Planning and Transportation Commission know, 5
there’s a Stream Corridor Protection Ordinance update. We have that coming up soon. So what 6
we can do is either we refer to that particular section of the code, so that we have a lighting 7
information with the – associated with streams there since that’s coming later than this 8
particular ordinance, so that it has more objective distance or standards included. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Let’s see. Last question. Packet Page 26, exemptions. The 11
following types of lighting are exempt from the lighting requirements. Number 1: Illuminated 12
street numbers on a building facade. So again, taking my house as an example, I’ve got that 13
porch light on the wall next to the door. Two feet in front of that, I’ve got a pole – just a 14
decorative 2 by 2 that has our street number on it. And that light does help people see the 15
street number but the street number is not on the façade. So does this not apply to me because 16
my street numbers are not on the façade? 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: When we were preparing it, this was addition that ARB requested. So we have added 1
this particular exemption. Staff wasn’t aware of that kind of situation, so we can definitely 2
remove that particular – that on a building façade. That… 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. We… 5
6
Kelly Cha: …exemption provision. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: …can talk about that. 9
10
Kelly Cha: Yeah. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Right. Okay. All right. Those are my questions. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you, Commissioner Hechtman. And onto Commissioner Lu and then 15
Templeton. 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Oh, thank you. I have a few clarifying questions. So first of all, does Palo Alto 18
have any regulations on interior lights in an occupied office or other commercial buildings? And 19
was anything considered for this ordinance? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: So the interior lights are not considered at this – so these are zoning codes, so… 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 4
5
Kelly Cha: …basically, we have discretion over buildings and [inaudible 51:37] conditions. So this 6
particular ordinance is just regulating the outdoor. 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. On Packet Page 22, Section E1C, I want to clarify the point about 9
light fixtures should be located at least 3 feet from curbs and 10 feet from driveways or 10
intersections to avoid obstructing clear sight distance triangles. I think this is mainly in 11
reference potentially to a single-family home, so I just want to clarify does that mean that we 12
like – how would this affect street lights, for example? Like street lights are on the sidewalk or 13
like right upon the curb, so how does that work? 14
15
Kelly Cha: Street lights are not something that we have discretion over in the zoning ordinance. 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: So the zoning – so we are – we can’t really have any regulations on street lighting as 1
part of the zoning ordinance. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 4
5
Kelly Cha: So zoning codes… 6
7
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Interesting. 8
9
Kelly Cha: …are only regulating… 10
11
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 12
13
Kelly Cha: So we have other municipal code section and titles that has regulations for street 14
lighting and anything that are in public… 15
16
Male: Right of way. 17
18
Kelly Cha: …properties. But for zoning code, we do have a – we only have regulations for private 19
properties. So that’s kind of like separated. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Kind of piggybacking off of Commissioner Reckdahl’s point, can you 2
clarify a little bit about how this applies to outdoor dining both – I know there’s reference − the 3
[parklet 53:11] – from the Parklet Ordinance, which we don’t have yet. But is there a reason 4
there isn’t a reference to other forms of outdoor dining like when discussing the Parklet 5
Ordinance. 6
7
Kelly Cha: So we do have parklets referenced in the zoning code just because there were some 8
discussions and some concerns that might have some comments related to parklets. But usually 9
for outdoor dining that are located in the sidewalk, those are public right of way where zoning 10
code really doesn’t have any discretion over. So that’s why we’re trying to avoid having those 11
references. But for rooftop properties, as Commissioner Reckdahl has mentioned, we can 12
definitely look into those. But generally to be consistent with the Dark Sky principles, we’ll 13
recommend similar recommendations for those as well. 14
15
Commissioner Lu: Okay. I think beyond rooftop properties, there’s also outdoor dining like 16
Backyard Brew is a café that’s kind of entirely premised on being outdoors and they do stay 17
open at night. So I would be curious to think later on about how to give Backyard Brew some 18
discretion on how to actually manage their own business. Finally, I have a question about code 19
enforcement. So how do we envision that working here? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: Could you… 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Oh, for code… 4
5
Kelly Cha: …specify a little bit. 6
7
Commissioner Lu: …enforcement. 8
9
Coleman Frick: So is the question about it whether if someone installs a light fixture that 10
doesn’t go through a building permit or there’s a complaint… 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 13
14
Coleman Frick: …based on the time of day or – is that the question? 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 17
18
Coleman Frick: To make sure. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: If someone complains, if someone’s clearly noncompliant, how does the – 1
how do we envision the enforcement happening? 2
3
Coleman Frick: So if it’s – if it like − Ms. Cha is saying is on private property, then we would just 4
handle it as a typical code enforcement case. So there’d be a case opened. If someone’s 5
complaining, they would typically like maybe provide some documentation. It does raise a 6
question though, which is typically our code enforcement staff isn’t available like at the times 7
that they would need to go and do a site visit for this. So they could definitely look at a fixture 8
potentially but maybe they couldn’t see the same thing. They might be able – they might have 9
to rely on some degree on photos that were provided by whoever lodged the complaint. Does 10
that answer your question? 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. That is really helpful. Can you also refresh us on what the penalties are 13
if the code – if the issue is not addressed by the property owner? 14
15
Coleman Frick: That’s outlined in the code. I don’t have that readily available because it’s 16
through a different division in the department. 17
18
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Coleman Frick: But we could get back to you on that. 1
2
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. I think that’d be good to clarify. I also see that Director Lait has a hand 3
up. 4
5
Coleman Frick: Oh, okay. Let’s pass it over to him then. 6
7
Jonathan Lait: Great. Thank you, Commissioner Lu and [through 56:26] the Chair. I think the 8
Commission has brought up several good points here as we’re hearing questions to the draft 9
ordinance. Commissioner Akin, I think, was questioning earlier the applicability section and 10
specifically with light fixtures. And I think this ties into Commissioner Lu’s question about 11
enforcement. And so I do think there is a fair – we would appreciate the Commission’s feedback 12
on the applicability of the ordinance relative to items that may not require a building permit. 13
Most – that’s usually the threshold by which we can determine whether something has 14
received approval or not. I am very concerned about any kind of enforcement activity on – if 15
we’re suddenly requiring shielding on lights and we’ve got all these residences in town that 16
don’t have that kind of protection – shielding, then suddenly going out and doing code 17
enforcement activity for everybody who’s now in violation of the ordinance. It’s not practical. 18
We’re not really going to be able to do that kind of enforcement of this ordinance. So we – 19
certainly not with the enforcement staff that we have now. So enforcement of shielded light 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
fixtures, and in particular, single-family residential properties, is not feasible. So again, I think 1
it’s appropriate for the Commission to talk about applicability and what’s the trigger. And I 2
think Ms. Cha had noted earlier new construction or substantial remodels might be a couple of 3
areas for the Commission to start that conversation. Thank you. 4
5
Chair Chang: Thank you, Director Lait. Did you have more, Commissioner Lu before I move to 6
Commissioner Templeton? 7
8
Commissioner Lu: No, that’s all for clarifying questions. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Commissioner Templeton. Thanks for your patience. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you all. I just appreciate staff bringing this issue before us and 13
drafting up this ordinance. And we do have a lot of questions. And I appreciate the questions 14
from the other Commissioners. Just to follow up on the code enforcement question. And it’s 15
complaint-driven entirely? Is that what I heard you guys say? 16
17
Kelly Cha: Staff [inaudible 58:56] no proactive enforcement – code enforcement. So it’ll be 18
completely complaint-based. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Thank you. And then I’m thinking about some questions that 1
Commissioner Hechtman brought up about the lighting curfew. He was mentioning the first 2
part of the lighting curfew, which was that have your lights off by 10:00 PM but the rest of the 3
sentence is or after close of business or when people are no longer present. So does that mean 4
if you’re having friends pick up somebody from a party at your house at 11:00 PM, you can 5
leave your light on? 6
7
Kelly Cha: The intention of that particular phrase was to – for the non-residential uses mostly 8
because we may have some – even if they close at 10:00 PM, there may be some maintenance 9
that they need to do afterwards. So that was the intention but we can definitely modify that 10
language so that – or even separate them out to be more clear as well. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: No, I think it’s not clear at all in the way it’s written right now. And I 13
would say that when I use my front porch light at night, it’s because my daughter’s friend’s 14
parents are coming to pick her friend up when they’re hanging out together during the day. So 15
like there are points at – that it would be silly to think we can’t use our front porch light to get 16
safely out of our driveway or have our friends get safely out of our driveway. So I would just 17
want to make sure that’s as clear as possible because that’s a pretty common use case. And… 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: I just wanted to remind Commissioner Templeton – because staff isn’t chiming in 1
on this one. But there’s a timing – there – light can also be put on timer with motion sensor and 2
so that might solve this problem. It may not solve the problem that you’re talking about too. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: I think it would. I mean when I do put that porch light on I have a 5
timer on it and it will go on when somebody triggers it but not everybody has that particular 6
appliance, so it’s a good point. So – yeah. Back to safety and thinking to Commissioner Akin’s 7
questions about the service station lighting, we haven’t – so a lot of cases, at least in my 8
experience in the past − maybe it’s not true here. But the lighting at gas stations is not just 9
functional. It’s about safety. We’ve had in places where I grew up that wasn’t here, we’ve had 10
lots of kind of crimes of opportunity happening at gas stations at night. And so they want to 11
have more lighting to prevent that. Is that going to be affected by your gasoline service station 12
lighting plan like security in other words? 13
14
Kelly Cha: Staff doesn’t believe so but we can definitely look into it and see. Because as the 15
Commissioner Reckdahl has requested, we can look into the current lighting level and see if we 16
need to actually modify that particular provision on foot candles and lumens light intensity. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Then yeah, I agree. Take a closer look and my add to what 1
Commissioner Reckdahl or Vice-Chair Reckdahl said is just to make sure we’re not 2
compromising safety and security by these adjustments at gas stations… 3
4
Kelly Cha: In addition to that, staff is not currently proposing to change the existing lighting to 5
comply with the new standards. So even if we do have these new provisions, unless there’s a 6
new gas stations or they’re changing significantly on their lighting, it won’t really impact their 7
operations at this moment. 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: I think that’s good to know, but I would not want any new – well – 10
assuming we did have new service stations, I would not want them to be unsafe. Okay. So my 11
last question – oh, go ahead. 12
13
Coleman Frick: Oh, just if I may – I think that that’s a great point and I think staff – the intent 14
isn’t to propose anything that would cause any safety concern within the community. That’s not 15
the intent of the regulations. We – it’s come up a bit about sort of like what happens in sort of 16
these safety scenarios and I think this was included – unfortunately, I wasn’t present at the last 17
meeting where the staff presentation occurred and was continued, but I believe that there is – 18
the slide was shown of like a carve-out for city operations and safety related to that lighting. 19
And then the Commission could also consider other exceptions in a case that there’s a safety 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
concern on private property similar to kind of what’s being raised about the service stations to 1
make sure that there is an opportunity to revisit it if it were to be an issue. That being said, we 2
will look into kind of those questions raised about how the existing service station lighting 3
that’s in place compares to what the regulations are proposing. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that because I do think that this 6
was written with the best of intentions. I think as a woman who has been scared, pumping gas 7
in her car before in places other than Palo Alto, I will just say I wanted to make sure we were 8
explicitly thinking about that because it is on the mind of at least half the people. So I just want 9
to make sure we’re taking that into consideration, and I’m glad to hear that you are. And my 10
last question was about the string lighting. Can – have we talked at all about what that means 11
for holiday lights? 12
13
Kelly Cha: So seasonal lighting is not – so string lighting is not considered seasonal lighting but – 14
and we have a definite – seasonal lighting is exempted as well. So if it’s part of the seasonal 15
lighting, I think that might be exempted. But if it’s not during that seasonal – the period of time, 16
it might have to comply with the provision there under the string lighting. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: If I have a picnic table or set up in my backyard to grill out at night, 19
does that affect those lights? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: If it is – so string – yeah. It’ll – if you have string lights in the backyard, that would 2
apply. And initially staff had some additional regulations that it might be okay if it’s not visible 3
from the public right of way. But there were some concerns that that might not be as objective 4
as well. But that’s something that Commissioner – Commission can consider and maybe make 5
modifications if that’s needed. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Well thank you for answering my clarifying questions. That’s 8
all I have for now. 9
10
Chair Chang: All right. Thank you. So now that we finished with clarifying questions − I don’t see 11
any other lights. We’re going to just continue discussion now with our comments. So I have a 12
question for my colleagues. The way I was thinking about handling this was to kind of go 13
through the five bullet areas that staff has highlighted for us on Packet Page 1 – I need to look 14
at – Packet Page 13, I think. So it starts with applicability, then there’s shielding, then 15
illumination level, then lighting control, and special purpose lighting. And that way maybe we 16
can kind of work our way through sections of the code rather than bouncing around all over. 17
What are my colleagues’ thoughts? Does that sound like a good plan? Okay. I’m – everybody… 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: I guess – I was thinking of more of just free flowing discussion but I 1
could go either way. 2
3
Chair Chang: I just find it easier when we’re discussing back and forth to be able to react to 4
each other’s topics. But… 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Then aren’t we setting ourselves up for basically 5 times 6, 30 7
separate comments [inaudible 67:36]. 8
9
Chair Chang: Let’s go with Commissioner Hechtman’s plan. And we’ll try that. And – 10
Commissioner Akin, did you have a… 11
12
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, actually I was going to respond in much the same vein as 13
Commissioner Hechtman. 14
15
Chair Chang: Wonderful. 16
17
Commissioner Akin: But I can make comments if we’re ready to start. 18
19
Chair Chang: Yeah. Go for it. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Okay. In general, I really support this ordinance but we have mentioned a 2
lot of specifics that need to be thought through here. And I’m not quite sure how to – how 3
we’re going to proceed with that. We certainly can’t answer all the questions that have been 4
raised tonight and redesign the ordinance from the dais. So I need to think about that a little 5
more and perhaps someone else will have some insight. In the meantime, I have a relatively 6
new house and the lighting was designed by a lighting engineer. I’ve got lamps ranging from 7
2,700 Kelvin up to 4,000 Kelvin. I have exactly one 4,000 Kelvin lamp and it’s on a one-minute 8
timer and it’s outside. And the reason it’s there is that it’s over a dark-colored surface. And the 9
first time I went through − I tried to walk out there at night to take the trash out − I understood 10
why that was there. Because on that surface, without enough light of an appropriate color, it 11
really is like stepping into a pit. So there’s occasionally a safety issue there. Three thousand 12
Kelvin seems like a good compromise to me between impact and effectiveness but picking 13
another number is not going to make so much difference that it would cause me to change my 14
mind about the ordinance. So whatever criteria we can use to determine that is likely going to 15
be okay with me. There were a lot of the specifics that I mentioned earlier during the clarifying 16
questions that I think are significant. Some of them are nits. We need to work on the service 17
stations question and using objective measures where we can and understanding applicability 18
in cases like rooftop dining where there’s going to be a lot of light out there that’s visible from 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the positions that are specified in this ordinance. So I don’t understand how that will be 1
handled. I guess that’s enough for this pass. I’ll move on to someone else now. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: So I like the concept of this ordinance but when we start to look at 6
the details, it gives me a lot of concerns. Like the vast majority of the residents of Palo Alto, I 7
live in the flats, not in the Palo Alto Hills, where we’re, in a suburban sense, densely put 8
together. So we're not spread out over acres and acres and I think it’s a different experience up 9
in the Palo Alto hills where they are spread out across acres and acres and there’s less light and 10
they can hope to see The Milky Way. But I never expect to see The Milky Way because I was 11
happy to make this tradeoff to be a part of this more vibrant, denser community, and that 12
community at night is lit. And the primary purpose for most of that lighting is safety in one form 13
or another whether it’s the street lights or the lights on the house. There are some lights that 14
are really just decorative to show off the walkway leading to the house or some tree. Some 15
people have a gorgeous tree, and so they have a light illuminating it. And there are some 16
examples of that. But most of the lighting really has some safety function. And so for example, 17
my porch light. We leave that with its two little 40-watt bulbs on all night. And that provides 18
comfort to my family, and I also think it provides comfort in a small safety factor to people who 19
pass by on my street whether they’re driving or walking. That happens a lot after 10:00 PM. It 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
was interesting after our last meeting when we started talking about this, as I drove home, I 1
decided it was – after 10:00 PM. And I decided I would look at all the houses that I’m passing to 2
verify my belief that nearly everyone leaves their porch light on at night. And I was surprised to 3
find that it’s not true. That maybe 60 – I’d say between 50 and 60 percent of the houses I 4
passed leave their porch light on after 10:00 PM. So that was kind of an education to me. But I 5
still like that level of lighting and I still feel like it provides for more safety. And so really my 6
comments particularly – about particular parts of this ordinance really relate to that. And so the 7
first – I’ve got sort of three comments. The first one is on the light level, the Kelvin light level of 8
3,000 versus 4,000. So again, I’m thinking safety first and if our police department is telling us, 9
as I believe our public works department told us when they were here working on the facility 10
down by the duck pond, they think it’s safer to have a brighter light. And so I’m hesitant to not 11
take the advice of our safety officials on a matter of safety. And so I’m inclined to lean toward 12
4,000 Kelvin and – rather than carve out some kind of exception for a situation like 13
Commissioner Akin has where it’s really useful to have 4,000. But now I’d have to go get some 14
kind of special permission from the City or risk a violation when my neighbor complains. Second 15
issue is the 10:00 PM curfew. I really don’t like that idea for my porch light. I don’t want my 16
block to be dark after 10:00 PM. That – to me, that’s not why I’m living in a city. I want it to be 17
lit. I want it to be safe. I want the people – there are occasions when I walk my dog after 10:30 18
PM. And when my kids were babies, there were many occasions where I was out after 10:30 19
PM with a sleepless kid. And I don’t want a pitch-black environment for that. That doesn’t feel 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
safe for me. So I think we need to be looking at an exception for the porch light of single-family 1
homes whether they’re attached to the façade or not. Or as Director Lait said if we’re just not 2
going to exclude them in the applicability section. And then the third issue I have that I want to 3
bring up is the riparian provisions in – on Packet Page 25. So I think that those are not ready for 4
primetime, and I think we really have to – again, for example – let’s see. This language, 5
“Nighttime lighting shall be directed away from the riparian corridor of a stream.” Right? So this 6
applies throughout Palo Alto. My house is three blocks from a stream. Right? But this doesn’t 7
say it doesn’t apply to me. I think it’s intended to apply really to the last structure before the 8
stream but it doesn’t say that. And similarly, as I brought up before, this idea that you have to 9
maximize the distance between nighttime lighting and a stream, apart from the fact that it 10
could apply to my house which is nowhere near a stream, as to the last building before the 11
stream, it pushes that house all the way to the – as far from the stream as it can be and maybe 12
changes its shape. And so what I think should happen is − we’re working on a riparian 13
ordinance. This lighting concept should be discussed in the context of that ordinance and – but 14
what we should have here is just – because there will be special rules, I suspect. What we want 15
to do here, I think, is just make a reference – refer people to the stream bed ordinance once 16
that’s adopted. And so we’re collecting all of the stream regulations at one] time and the 17
Commission can talk about them all at one time to see how they fit together. So those are my 18
comments. Thank you. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Thank you, Commissioner Hechtman. Commissioner Lu. 1
2
Commissioner Lu: Yeah, I want to start with some specific comments and also a couple more 3
questions. I’m also hesitant about the curfew for existing buildings and I know everyone’s 4
talking about their own building. I know that like might not be the most helpful thing. But I live 5
in a multi-family building where the exit lights are on the same wiring as the lights in the 6
common areas. So at night and also during the day − but that’s another story. I’m taking 7
[inaudible 77:56] HOA − with the HOA. All the lights are on for exits and for just illumination of 8
the common areas. My understanding is that for my building to actually decouple those would 9
be a very expensive exercise, potentially tens of thousands of dollars because they’re – it’s a 40-10
unit building. It’s kind of in a weirdly-shaped lot. There’s a lot of wiring that needs to be redone. 11
And if this were required for my building on day one, we would not be able to comply for quite 12
a while and we would have significant costs. I imagine this could be a situation for many other 13
multi-family homes or even commercial properties where – unless we’re willing to not require 14
illuminated exit signs or illuminated safety signs, which I think is probably a big stretch in terms 15
of safety or statewide regulations. We would otherwise be asking these pr-, like many people to 16
spend thousands of dollars potentially. So I think there’s got to be some solution here but it’s – 17
probably needs to be phased out or potentially tied to a substantial remodel. So that’s my first 18
comment. I also want to go back to the point about what you were talking about how this really 19
only applies to zoning, and therefore, wouldn’t apply to streetlights or potentially other public 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
certain – like public facilities or public [light 79:28] sources. So to kind of comment on 1
Commissioner Hechtman’s concern that you would walk down the street and it be like dark at 2
night. That wouldn’t be the case necessarily, right? Because none of the streetlights would be 3
covered by the shielding requirements and presumably the streetlights are the majority of the 4
light on a block at night. 5
6
Kelly Cha: So streetlighting that are located in public right of ways, they would have to comply 7
with the other titles of the municipal code. So that – as long as they’re public – located in the 8
public right of ways, we wouldn’t be able to regulate those. And so there will be some lighting… 9
10
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 11
12
Kelly Cha: …on streets if there – if that particular street has streetlighting on it. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Okay. And that would also apply to like the string lighting on trees on 15
University Ave., for example? 16
17
Coleman Frick: Potentially anything that’s in the public right of way, potentially. 18
19
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Coleman Frick: So including – I think the parklets are sort of an interesting example that you 2
raised because obviously that’s in the public right of way but it might be associated with a 3
private business. Right? 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. I think that does allay a lot of the safety concerns for me but it also – I 6
think [I was 80:48] maybe just tripped up in the staff presentation how there was like pictures 7
of streetlights shielding and I thought that there’d be some long-term path for Dark Skies in 8
that context. But I think that’s just totally outside of the scope of this conversation, right? 9
10
Coleman Frick: Yeah, I think that would be sort of a separate policy discussion for the Council in 11
terms of like if there’s some direction they wanted to provide as part of like the CIP program for 12
the streetlight, like replacement program. But obviously that’s kind of in the realm of another 13
department, so I wouldn’t want to speak to that in detail. 14
15
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 16
17
Female: [Inaudible 81:28]. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: Okay. I have a few specific [notes 81:33] but I could like glaze over them and 1
potentially send them offline. In general, I think I agree with some of my other Commissioners 2
that I really want to make this work, but I think the current ordinance as it is is not ready for me 3
to recommend to Council. I think one potential way to help this move faster is to look into the 4
ARB recommendation of light-sensitive areas. I think this might be closer or almost ready for 5
west of Foothill or east of 101, for example. But for Palo Alto as a whole, I think there are just 6
so many questions that would be ambiguous and in some cases onerous like for multi-family 7
buildings with old wiring that need to be sorted out. 8
9
Chair Chang: Is that it? Okay. So I don’t see other – oh. Commissioner Templeton. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I want to say again how much I appreciate 12
staff working on this and I hear my colleagues’ concerns around it not being ready yet. But I 13
want to tell you that this is something so new and that we really are going to have to plan to 14
iterate on it, and that’s okay. I think Commissioner Lu’s suggestion of stepping it up by region 15
of the city is a good one. And the important… 16
17
Chair Chang: Can you repeat that, Commissioner Templeton? I just didn’t understand. I couldn’t 18
hear your last – Commissioner Lu’s suggestion to what? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 83:19] step this pr-, plan into – gosh, I’m barely functional 1
with my brain here. To step by region into this kind of ordinance. It might be appropriate in 2
certain areas first, etc. Whatever that – in [inaudible 83:36] and iterate kind of approach we 3
take makes sense. Because what’s most important here is that we are so lucky here in Palo Alto 4
to live by really sensitive lands, right? Like we have places with birds and amphibians and any 5
other kinds of river mammals that we need to worry about their sensitivity and we haven’t 6
been doing that for very long. And this is a step in the right direction. So I think it’s okay for us 7
to say that it’s not there yet but we’re committed to it. And maybe there are areas we want to 8
try it and then expand it. Those are all acceptable solutions that – I don’t want staff to feel 9
discouraged because this is hard − like this is really hard. And you’ve put a lot of great ideas out 10
here and we have to respond to them. And that’s what we’re going to do together. So – 11
regarding the rewiring and the difficulties, I acknowledge that in some buildings that could be 12
challenging, but on the other hand, if we’re talking about the safety of exit signs, that’s not 13
comprisable. So if they need to move that onto a different circuit or rewire them, that’s the 14
cost of doing business or running a [inaudible 85:06] facility. So I’m not too worried about that. 15
I do think that they would step up and I don’t think it’s prohibitively expensive. But it’s a good 16
point to think about like how can we – if we are asking people to lower the lights on areas that 17
are safety-related, we have to talk about how we can do that practically and support facilities 18
that need to implement that. So I think there’s a little bit more of thought we need to provide 19
for that. Thank you. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. I don’t see any other lights right now from my colleagues, so I’m going to 2
give my comments. So I just wanted to thank staff for all the work that you’ve put in to this. I’m 3
really excited about this ordinance, and I’m hoping actually that we might not be as far away 4
from something as some of my colleagues have suggested. Because I think that a lot of the 5
concerns that have been raised can actually be addressed with respect to applicability. And so if 6
we really are limiting – if we as a Commission decide to limit the applicability to major remodels 7
or new construction, which seems to be the most practical path anyways since it’s 8
unenforceable − if we don’t do that, then I think we actually address a lot of the concerns that 9
have been raised by my fellow Commissioners. And as I’ve often heard here like we don’t want 10
to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I think the staff has done actually a tremendous 11
amount of research here based on what other cities have implemented. And so in this sense, 12
we’re not implementing something that’s totally crazy because they’ve looked at cities who are 13
neighbors to us also in the flats. And if we think that those cities can do it without any 14
significant problems, then we can too as long as we address that applicability issue. So when we 15
think about Commissioner Hechtman’s idea or Commissioner Hechtman’s comment about his 16
porch light and he doesn’t have something that’s on timer right now because it’s an older 17
fixture that’s ber-, either not on timer or not motion censored, then he’d still be able to 18
continue using his light if we also then address that one specific curfew to say that for folks who 19
don’t have motion sensor capability, then we can still allow them to leave their light on. So – 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and for some of the other − like Commissioner Lu had mentioned for his multi-family housing 1
where the outdoor lightings on the same circuit as the indoor lighting and so you can’t separate 2
the two. Well if we said it’s not applicable unless there is a major remodel, then that would 3
eliminate that concern too. And for new construction, it shouldn’t be difficult to put two 4
systems on two different circuits. That shouldn’t be cost prohibitive. So I’m thinking that that 5
one issue of applicability might actually – if we address that one issue of applicability, it might 6
actually solve a lot of our problems. And also give us more time because if there is a really big 7
mistake − which it doesn’t seem like necessarily there is. Because again, other cities have 8
implemented many of these aspects – many pieces of this ordinance. Then we could actually 9
continue to move ahead if we could get some comfort around that. I actually really liked a lot of 10
the suggestions given to us by the Sierra Club and by the Santa Clara Valley Audubon Society, so 11
I’d like to thank them for their specifics and in general was in agreement with those except that 12
I have some questions about the 2700 versus 3, 000. I think that the Commission would like to 13
discuss that because I heard several Commissioners talk about the light temperature. Also the – 14
what was raised about the foot candles versus the lumens. My personal preference as a 15
residential remodeler was – is that it would be much easier to comply with anything if I can look 16
at the packaging of something and I understand whether my fixture is compliant or not. So I 17
think I would need to understand what is the equivalent for the .1 foot candles in terms of 18
lumens. But I – in general, I think we should do something that the average human can 19
understand rather than – people are trying to do the right thing, let’s make it easy for them to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
do the right thing. And then I really liked Commissioner Hechtman’s idea about referring to the 1
stream side ordinance rather than writing something specific in this ordinance about that area. 2
And that would make it a lot easier to adopt and avoid unforeseen consequences because I 3
think he pointed out some really good problems with the language as currently read. I did have 4
some other specific suggestions, such as if something’s on timer and motion sensor, I don’t see 5
why 5 minutes wouldn’t be good enough. But if that’s what sort of the − people have done the 6
research have said that it does work, it seems like that could work. So I think – I do have a lot of 7
other kind of smaller suggestions like that but I really like – I like a lot of what the Sierra Club 8
and the Santa Clara Valley Audubon Society said. Thank you. Vice-Chair Reckdahl. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I too like this. Some of the details, I don’t think, are quite baked out 11
yet. The clock – time of day clock – I think – I have not shopped for lights since we remodeled 12
18 years ago. So is that trivial these days to have a light know what time of day it is? Like 13
motion detectors are easy and [inaudible 91:53] will take sensors to see if the sun is out or – 14
are easy. But is time of day – is that easy? 15
16
Kelly Cha: Well I – staff is not expert on that but – on that particular require-, that devices and 17
the standards and regulations. But speaking from the personal kind of experience, it’s easy to 18
sort of like regulate the timing for interior lights as well at this – with the newer technology. So I 19
assume that that’s the same for the outdoor lighting. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. If we’re going to have anything with time of day in it, I want to make 2
sure that that’s something that’s reasonable and we’re not requiring people to have Cadillacs. 3
This should be something that’s – you can go to Home Depot and buy easily. Do you have a 4
comment? 5
6
Coleman Frick: Oh, I was just going to kind of respond to the question as well. So I think that 7
that’ s something that we could look into in terms of – I think broadly speaking for commercial 8
lighting, it’s probably more standard, but I understand the point and the concern about 9
residential lighting for an individual exterior light fixture or multiple. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And the other thing that Commissioner Lu brought up is that one of 12
the biggest sources of lights are offices that have their lights bright all night long with big glass 13
windows and that’s going to put out far more lights than anything that I have. And are we 14
addressing that in the future or what’s the plan for that? 15
16
Kelly Cha: That can be something the Planning – the Commission can definitely discuss and 17
include it if the Commission thinks that that’s necessary. The existing lighting section has a 18
provision that basically says – but it’s not objective obviously. It’s basically saying that you 19
shouldn’t – you should basically minimize the light spillage from interior lighting as well. So that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
can be discussed and included as part of it as a special provision within the ordinance, but at 1
this moment, that is – but that’ s definitely something that can be discussed. Yeah. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 4
5
Kelly Cha: And included. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: But we’re not planning to do it on this iteration? 8
9
Kelly Cha: At this moment, no. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 12
13
Kelly Cha: Yeah. 14
15
Coleman Frick: And sometimes, obviously the challenge with that is that − as an office building 16
as an example, right? Sometimes cleaning services occur in the evening, right? So the light can 17
sometimes have a purpose when it is on at night and that’s not something we’re really kind of 18
bringing into these regulations as proposed… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: We could put timers on it or motion detectors because I drive by – go 1
down El Camino and you see these bright lights and no one’s in there and there’s no cleaning 2
service. So it’s something I think we could attack pretty easily with some type of timing 3
requirement. Then the question also is how bright should it be? Should there be some foot 4
candle requirement? And that gets trickier too. 5
6
Coleman Frick: Yeah. And I think it’s an important question. We don’t have firm direction from 7
Council to kind of pursue that as part of this… 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 10
11
Coleman Frick: …policy. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I don’t want to take a too big of a bite. I’d rather take smaller bites that 14
are efficient because you can get… 15
16
Kelly Cha: And just… 17
18
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: This could become a [inaudible 95:12] trying… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: Yeah. 1
2
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: …to solve [all the problems 95:14]. 3
4
Kelly Cha: And previously before this particular effort − I think there are several projects that 5
went through ARB review and they have attached some conditions related to interior lights. So 6
that can be done as well after – if we don’t deal with them as part of this ordinance update. 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And… 9
10
Kelly Cha: Case by case. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: …the other thing is that I really think the hills and the Baylands need more 13
protection than the flatlands. And so I think we do – at least eventually want to have two 14
separate categories. I don’t know exactly what – how they would differ right now. But I think 15
I’m much more willing to be restrictive in Baylands and in the Foothills than in the rest of Palo 16
Alto. Lumens versus foot candles. I mean foot candles makes a lot more sense from an impact, 17
right? If you’re shining light into the neighbor’s yard − if you have a relatively small bulb close to 18
your neighbors, you’re affecting them more than if you have a brighter light further away. But 19
enforcement, lumens makes a lot more sense. And then you could say, “Okay, I know this. I can 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
put this anywhere and it’s fine.” So I have mixed feelings about the foot candles versus lumens 1
just for enforceability. And finally, the 2700 [inaudible 96:35]. I agree with Commissioner Akin 2
that there are probably spots where 4,000 is better. I’m worried about throwing the baby out 3
with the bathwater because I suspect that 95 percent of the lights that we have out in Palo Alto 4
would be just perfectly fine at 2700. And I’d hate to get rid of that just because of the few 5
exceptions where you really do need it. I would rather have 2700 required and have some 6
exceptions that – because – especially, if you’re doing this for remodels where you need a 7
building permit, then you certainly – part of that planning process, you could give exceptions to 8
ones that can be 2700. But I − in my light – the lights that I have in my backyard, they could be 9
2700. No problem. There’s no – there’d be no safety issue. So – and I suspect that most people 10
are in the same boat as that. So I would hate to require 4,000 just for the exceptions. I think 11
that I’d rather start low with – and require exceptions. Okay. That’s all I have. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Chang: We’re going to go for a second round, it looks like. Commissioner Lu. 14
15
Commissioner Lu: [Inaudible 97:46]. Oh, I was going to ask a somewhat rhetorical question 16
about how staff wants us to move forward. I want to move the ball forward and I really like 17
Commissioner Chang’s points about preventing [inaudible 98:03] cases by applying this to new 18
buildings and substantial remodels. And I also wonder whether there’s consensus here about 19
maybe making some light revisions based on our comments and applying this to the Foothills 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and Baylands kind of more quickly. Like do we see that as kind of the way to move forward 1
here. Like limit the applicability to new construction and remodels and limit the applicability to 2
– and/or limit the applicability to Baylands and Foothills? 3
4
Chair Chang: I certainly like the suggestion. I would love to hear from others. So let’s see what 5
Commissioner Hechtman has to say and whether we think that we could as a Commission get 6
far enough on enough things to feel comfortable to do what Commissioner Lu suggested. So 7
let’s see what we all think of that. Commissioner Hechtman. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. So I guess I’ll start with that. I think it could be a good way 10
forward to sort of break it into those two pieces. I’m sort of wondering even if we did that, are 11
we really going to be able to come to a consensus tonight on something that can move forward 12
to Council or are we still going to have enough open issues. Because I think this is more 13
important in those areas, which are already lower light because they’re lower density and is − 14
somebody pointed out more sensitive receptors – animals in those areas. But I’m not sure that 15
that would allow us to move forward with a motion tonight any more than sort of the path 16
we’ve been on, which I think has been really productive in talking about − well if we get our 17
applicability and exceptions right, maybe we can get a level of comfort. So with that in mind, I 18
do acknowledge as Commissioner Lu pointed that the streetlights are not covered by this 19
ordinance, and those will continue even if we had no housing lights − those would continue to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
provide some illumination on the street. But I can tell you at least in our neighborhood where 1
we have a lot of very large street trees that extend into the street, we have a lot of dark spots 2
where that light doesn’t reach. And in those situations, then the neighbor’s house light helps. 3
So you’re right. It’s not pitch black. So one thought I had is – I guess one thing I’d like to see is 4
on this curfew, an exemption for residential – basically residential entry doors. And so I didn’t 5
want to say single-family home because it applies equally to multi-family development. And 6
again, those are typically not your worst-defender spotlights. They’re usually tastefully done to 7
– because they don’t – you don’t want to blind people as they’re stepping up to your door. And 8
I thought about do we just say front door, but then I thought there are a lot of people who have 9
a front door for guests basically and they come in from the side door, right? When they park 10
their car in the detached garage. And so I don’t want necessarily that area to be totally dark. So 11
I think between this limitation to new construction or substantial remodel and a curfew 12
exemption for these porch – basically what I’ve been calling porch lights. I’m mostly 13
comfortable at – on the Kelvin issue, I guess – I mean I’m hearing my Commissioners that don’t 14
seem to have the same concern about keeping it at 4,000 other than in special circumstances, 15
and it’s occurring to me that I really don’t know what I’m talking about. I really have − like if you 16
showed me two lights, I would only know that one was 4 and the other 3 because the 3 was not 17
as bright as the 4. Right? And so is there some… 18
19
Chair Chang: So can I just interject here? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 2
3
Chair Chang: We actually have somebody who’s an expert in the room and it happens to be a 4
member of the public but they actually have [inaudible 102:50]. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 7
8
Chair Chang: And so I might suggest that we rely on that expertise. And again, we don’t want to 9
confuse brightness… 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 12
13
Chair Chang: It’s the light color like how blue or yellow versus bright and… 14
15
Commissoner Hechtman: So… 16
17
Chair Chang: It’s not – it’s different than just brightness. 18
19
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: So go ahead… 2
3
Commissioner Akin: It’s more… 4
5
Shani Kleinhaus: It is different than brightness… 6
7
Commissioner Akin: …than that too. 8
9
Shani Kleinhaus: …and that’s important to know. When LEDs started, the energy consumption 10
was to achieve the energy consumption that they were trying to get to. They had to have very 11
high Kelvin levels, 5,000, 6,000, and more. The technology did not exist to go with the energy 12
savings and also lower Kelvin levels. That development – the lighting industry has been 13
developing fast, and today, 2700 is very accessible. For a while, you couldn’t get those. So 14
everybody said, “Oh, let’s do 3,000 or 4,000.” Today you can get the 2700 and more and more 15
are coming at 2400. And the reason is that the level of Kelvin reflects the blue light component, 16
which is very harmful to people and to everything that’s alive. So the intent of the industry is 17
actually moving towards lower Kelvin while at the same time, balancing the energy 18
consumption of these lights. Because you don’t want to have to go back to what we used to 19
have which is a lot of energy consumption. In terms of what you see, there’s not a lot of 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
difference. The difference is visible to some insects and birds and they’re attracted to the blue 1
light. And so if – that’s kind of like where we are. They’ll come to downtown instead of the 2
Baylands if the Baylands are darkened and the downtown has a lot of light in it. But they 3
perceive it. We barely perceive it. And the people will see the risks around them as well 4
whether they – and it’s kind of misleading our eyes. We feel the daylight is brighter but we 5
actually don’t distinguish things better with 3,000 or 27. But the impact on – of the blue light on 6
our health and the health over the ecosystem is important. I don’t know whether that 7
completely answers the question but really it’s a matter of technology that has been changing 8
and some legacy, “Oh, 4,000, we need that.” We don’t. And so the experts that we talk to from 9
the Dark Sky Association, they recommend 2400. It’s difficult to get to 2400 because it’s hard to 10
get the fixtures. They’re not there yet. They will be, but they’re not there yet. Twenty-seven 11
hundred today is easy. That’s why we recommended 2700 anyway. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. 14
15
Shani Kleinhaus: If you have questions, I can try… 16
17
Chair Chang: Thank you. I’ve also got a comment from Commissioner Akin. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, I wanted to caution us against going too deeply down this particular 1
rathole because there’s a lot of physics and psychology of color perception involved as well as 2
the technology of the lamps. And I know enough to know that we can’t make this decision 3
trivially tonight. The color temperature is how close a lamp is to an idealized physical radiator. 4
So that is not the same as the color of the light or how you perceive colors that are illuminated 5
by this light. That’s generally done in the industry today by a thing called a color rendering 6
index. But the main point I just wanted to make is that it is far more complicated than we can 7
boil down into a single number. As far as the illuminators themselves, if what we’re really doing 8
is optimizing for lowest impact on the surrounding wildlife and plant life, you might go for, why 9
stop at 2700? Why not go to 2400? Why not go to 2200? Why not go to night-vision red, which 10
is what you have to use when you really need to be able to see something in low-light 11
situations. Or ultimately, the obvious answer is don’t have any outdoor lights. The reason you 12
have all this other stuff is because there are other purposes that have to be balanced with the 13
impact on the surrounding world. And that’s what we’re trying to do here. It’s not an easy 14
question to answer and the only thing we can do tonight is make a very coarse approximation 15
to what an adequate solution might be. So let’s not fixate too much on that. 16
17
Chair Chang: Okay. So we have a [follow-on 107:50] question for Commissioner Reckdahl of 18
the… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: I wasn’t done. 1
2
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. So that was an answer to my question… 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: …that – again, I’m trying to get comfortable with this 3,000 versus 9
4,000 and I heard Ms. Kleinhaus say it’s really barely perceptible and I appreciate your expertise 10
and I’m not questioning it. So I guess I’m wiling to support the 3,000 but when we get around to 11
a motion, which I hope we do, I’d like somehow to include in that motion that I think if our 12
police department thinks that that’s not appropriate, then they need to explain to the City 13
Council why. Because they’re not here tonight to inform us and maybe they’re just thinking 14
brighter is safer. Right? Without ever – without really even themselves having a better 15
understanding of the difference. So that’s how I’d kind of like to package that, but I think I’m 16
comfortable with − and staff, of course, has vetted this and decided that 3,000 is an appropriate 17
level, so I think I’m comfortable with that now. 18
19
Chair Chang: Commissioner – Vice-Chair Reckdahl. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Ms. Shani, I have a follow-up question and Commissioner Akin may want 2
to chime in too. So when we heard the public – the water treatment plant, we wanted – one of 3
the suggestions was to go to a lower temperature light there and the staff said no, they didn’t 4
want that for safety reasons. In your opinion, could they got the same safety with a lower 5
temperature but then a brighter light at a lower temperature? Would that been able to meet 6
their safety needs or… 7
8
Shani Kleinhaus: It’s really hard to balance all that like − Commissioner, I can explain. They were 9
really looking at guidelines for indoor lighting, for comer-, for industrial facilities when they 10
recommended 4,000 or more. I think overall we would have preferred the 2700 but – or even 11
3,000. I think they ended up with 4 but I’m not sure I remember correctly. But they also have 12
that only for short periods of time and it’s relatively deemed so. Balancing all of that is difficult. 13
The real difference between 27 and 3,000 Kelvin or more is how much blue light is included. We 14
don’t perceive that. Some creatures do, like I said birds and bugs do. But we don’t really see 15
how much blue light there is. The impact is on our sleep, on our health, on children’s health. A 16
lot of impacts are related to the − how much blue light is included in the spectrum of the fixture 17
that you’re using. Outdoor lighting and the blue light have been connected to various health 18
issues in people. It’s hard to show with outdoor light complete linkage because it’s outdoors 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
but they have studies that have been done on large populations of nurses and people who work 1
at night in shifts and all that show a very – there is a risk to that light. So if you… 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Short answer… 4
5
Shani Kleinhaus: …do 3,000, you do… 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: …is that it’s not an easy answer. 8
9
Shani Kleinhaus: Definitely not. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 12
13
Chair Chang: Thank you. 14
15
Shani Kleinhaus: But 27 is better for creatures and for people. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 18
19
Shani Kleinhaus: Overall. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I want to support 2700 if possible, but if there is a legitimate safety issue, 2
I’m concerned about that. But I wonder if there’s more than one dimension here and could you 3
go to 2700 and have brighter and still be able to achieve safeness. And I don’t think we have the 4
ability to say that tonight. 5
6
Chair Chang: So I do like Commissioner Hechtman’s kind of solution to whatever number we 7
arrive upon to ask for some – to kind of flag that for City Council. Me personally, on the lumens, 8
having just remodeled, I mean I can see the difference barely with – for 2700 versus 3,000 but 9
I’m happy to go with 2700 if I think that there’s a material impact for outdoor in combination 10
with limiting the applicability of this to major remodels. So that if there really is a major 11
remodels and new construct-, and constructions – so if there really is a need, that we can 12
address that. I did have a question for staff. I somehow remember reading that low-voltage 13
lighting is an exception. Is that correct? 14
15
Kelly Cha: That’s correct for the – we have listed here… 16
17
Chair Chang: Under exceptions? 18
19
Kelly Cha: Under exceptions under shielding section. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. 2
3
Kelly Cha: So that includes 10 watt or 150 lumens. 4
5
Chair Chang: And then is low-voltage light – as written, was the curfew intended to address 6
low-voltage lighting too? Like pathway lights? 7
8
Kelly Cha: That wasn’t intended but that can be also added as well because… 9
10
Chair Chang: As an exception. 11
12
Kelly Cha: …that is an exception. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Because I mean I’m also listening to what my colleagues are saying about 15
streetlights are great but there definitely are dark spots and there’s reasons why we have 16
pathway lighting but that’s also low voltage and tends to – if properly shielded, might be okay. 17
So I would like to see an exception there potentially for low-voltage lighting. We have it for 18
solar lighting but it actually goes up to 20 − something higher than what would be considered 19
low voltage. So if we’re accepting that, it seems to me that we should also accept like the low-20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
voltage pathway lighting that is so common that I know I use. And it wouldn’t really be 1
sufficient on timer. I kind of need to see it before I am walking in it. All right. Other comments? 2
And I’m trying to figure out how to best proceed here with a motion that – we can either send 3
you guys off and then I would ask – to come back again. In which case, I would ask staff where 4
they think they need clarification from the Commission or we could attempt to make a motion. 5
But I’m not exactly – like I’m not ready to do that and I can’t think of what it would be. If 6
anybody can – yeah. So I’d like – colleagues, what do you think? I’ve got Commissioner Akin 7
here. 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Yeah. We’ve talked about a lot of things here and some of them have been 10
very detail-oriented. And I’m curious to know how much staff has captured. So perhaps, it 11
would – it would certainly help me, perhaps it would help others if we know what you’re going 12
to investigate for the version that you intend to take to Council. If enough of those are covered 13
and if we’re happy with a compromise on applicability, then we may be able to move forward. 14
15
Chair Chang: So Commissioner Akin, are you suggesting that staff kind of summarize for us what 16
they’ve managed to capture? 17
18
Commissioner Akin: I think that’s what I’d like… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. 1
2
Commissioner Akin: …to hear. Is that… 3
4
Chair Chang: Yeah, let’s go… 5
6
Commissioner Akin: …of interest? 7
8
Chair Chang: Let’s do that. I think that might be the best way to proceed regardless of the 9
ultimate path we take. 10
11
Kelly Cha: Okay. I’ll try to go through my notes. So I think the clarification – I think the direction 12
from the Planning – the Commission on applicability would be helpful whether there’s a 13
modification recommended in applicability section. And I believe there was some clarification 14
needed for the lighting standards under shielding. That’s 1D on Packet Page 22 related to the 3 15
feet at public right of way. That was initially requested. Some modifications or potentially 16
further discussion. And there were some concerns related to the rooftop lighting for outdoor 17
dining uses. So that’s something that staff can definitely follow up on. And – let’s see. So the 18
lighting curfew. There was a lot of discussion related to whether that should be accepted. There 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
should be some exception for the porch lighting, so that direction would be definitely helpful as 1
well. 2
3
Chair Chang: Just to clarify, I think there was some really good feedback there. It wasn’t just 4
porches. It’s like entrance door lighting. 5
6
Kelly Cha: Okay. Yeah. So that we can follow up. And then also staff will follow up on the 7
outdoor solar-powered pathway lights whether that should actually expand to other sources. 8
And the correction will be made to the title of the gasoline service station lighting to include the 9
EV charging stations as well. And staff will follow up on the current lighting level on the gas 10
stations to compare with the proposed standards. The lighting near streams will be referenced 11
to the new – the section that the staff is working on to update. And the prohibited lighting 12
section − the lighting subjective language − staff can actually remove the provision or also try to 13
come up with some other objective standard but that can be – I think those are all of my notes 14
at this moment. If there’s anything else to add… 15
16
Chair Chang: I’ll chime in with a few that I captured. So I think there was one thing about 17
illuminating street numbers on a building façade and eliminating the part about on a building 18
façade. And then we didn’t discuss it as a Commission but I thought of a potential solution to 19
the issue. So on the gasoline service lighting, there was a lot of discussion about sort of outdoor 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
uses and − but staff’s answer was that most of that would be just covered by our regular 1
business hours. And so the exception to that rule is any outdoor business. So I can’t think of 2
everything possible that that might be but when – but a CUP is required to – for a business to 3
operate beyond like the – or within the 10:00 PM to 6:00 AM window. And so my suggestion to 4
that would be that we would base these – the timing of this gasoline service station lighting for 5
any businesses that have outdoor lighting to tie or – sorry. Outdoor operating hours and 6
outdoor lighting to tie it to their CUP. So if they’ve got a CUP to operate to midnight, which 7
presumably a gas – like a drive-thru does, then they should still be allowed to have their 8
outdoor lighting that they could have at 10:00 PM, they can still have it at midnight as well. So I 9
think that’s the principle that we were all trying to get at and if you could base it off of a CUP 10
for operating hours, then that might solve that problem. Commiss-, Director Lait. 11
12
Jonathan Lait: Thank you, Chair. And thank you, Commissioners. I – and to staff who is working 13
on this trying to respond to all the questions. I will say that I do appreciate the interest to try to 14
move something forward and advance this particular ordinance. I – in addition to Ms. Cha’s 15
summary, I had some other notes that I’ve taken that I think probably require a little bit more 16
vetting. And I’m saying this – on one hand, I do want to move things forward to get them – so 17
we can move – take on the Council priorities and move on to our next items. But there’s a lot 18
here that I feel like has been raised and we could probably – would probably benefit from 19
another pass with staff looking at the comments that we’ve received and how we might reflect 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that in an ordinance. I think the Commission has identified a lot of interesting sort of use cases 1
and scenarios that I think we just need to vet through a little bit more carefully. In the area that 2
I feel would be helpful to receive feedback from the Commission on is this notion of – I think 3
that we’re clear based on the conversation, I would move toward an applicability of substantial 4
remodels and new construction as being the area where we would enforce this – these 5
standards. But I had also heard some comments about geographically in the city. Is there a 6
priority for the Foothills and Baylands and less so for the flats. And then we heard from public 7
comment that the flats is an area that is important as well because that could cause the wildlife 8
to come toward the flats and away from the areas that it might otherwise want to be in, 9
Baylands and Foothills. So hearing from the Commission some kind of direction as to that type 10
of applicability − because right now we’re approaching this as a citywide ordinance. I’ve – if the 11
Commission had some perspective on that either to proceed on a citywide approach as was – as 12
is before you or if you think that we should be separating this into these sort of light-sensitive 13
areas. That’s a question I think would be helpful for us to get some feedback there. 14
15
Chair Chang: Thank you, Director Lait. So I think what we’re hearing from staff is – and thank 16
you so much, Ms. Cha, for that kind of going down that laundry list. It does seem to us that 17
you’ve – I’m not seeing my colleagues lights light up here, so it sounds like you captured the 18
bulk of the minutes. Sounds like Director Lait captured some more. So that’s fantastic. It should 19
be a really good starting point for you guys to make some changes and then come back to us 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
hopefully pretty rapidly with the refinements. And then that now – if that is the direction that 1
we’re proceeding, which is not to recommend this to Council just yet, we do need to provide 2
staff some direction on two pieces that Director Lait highlighted. The first is – I mean I read the 3
room and I think that the Commissioners are in agreement that the applicability should be 4
limited to new construction and major remodels. And I would like to just sort of get a show of 5
hands if you disagree with that or would like to discuss that further. 6
7
Commissioner Lu: Just to confirm that’s − also includes the curfew. So the curfew would be 8
applicable too? 9
10
Chair Chang: Correct. 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 13
14
Chair Chang: I think for everything – for the whole – [sir 123:27]. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Sorry. No, I don’t – the way the ordinance is written, I don’t think 17
that’s right. The curfew applies tomorrow if it’s adopted today. But in terms of installing new 18
lights – so your existing lights are grandfathered basically but they still have to be turned off at 19
10:00 PM. So curfew is outside of the applicability. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Curfew at 10:00 PM is applicability but curfew is something that staff highlighted 2
that they’re going to look at. Yes. Okay. So with respect to that applicability question 3
specifically, that was the consensus that I seemed to get. And so if any Commissioner disagrees 4
with that applicability of limiting it to major remodels and things that require a permit, could 5
you please light it up? Okay. Great. And then – so I’m not seeing any disagreement on that, so 6
staff you have the direction there. The other piece that Director Lait wanted us to all chime in 7
on is whether we want to continue with the citywide ordinance as staff has drafted with us or 8
whether we think it’s important to have sort of areas of emphasis. So that’s where I’d love to 9
see people light it up. And Commissioner Reckdahl, was that where your comment was? 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I wanted to talk about the curfew but… 12
13
Chair Chang: Okay. Let’s talk about the curfew after we talk about… 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 16
17
Chair Chang: Yeah. Let’s talk about the curfew afterwards and remind me if I forget. So 18
Commissioner Akin and then Commissioner Hechtman. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. I’d like to see this continue to be applied citywide and 1
the reasons are it more faithfully follows the goal that we’re trying to achieve. But also now 2
that we’ve limited applicability to remodels and new construction, we’ll be able to run a few 3
projects incrementally and see how well they work out. And then if we run into issues, we can 4
modify the ordinance. That’ll be a lot easier if the flats are included in this ordinance because 5
that’s where most of the projects will be. So… 6
7
Chair Chang: Okay. 8
9
Commissioner Akin: …that’s my call. 10
11
Chair Chang: Thank you. Commissioner Hechtman. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah, so I think that the idea of splitting this up a little bit earlier in 14
the evening when we were thinking maybe we’re going to try to move something forward 15
tonight. And that was something we could bite off. But I agree with Ms. Cha’s kind of listing and 16
Director Lait’s additional items. If things are going to work out – come back to us, I think we 17
can cover the whole thing and I think the benefits are as Commissioner Akin described. So I 18
don’t think we need to split that out. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Fantastic. I’m going to read the room again. I’m seeing lots of nods and agreement 1
with what Commissioner Akin said. And nobody’s lighting things up to tell me otherwise, so 2
that’s the direction that we would like to continue with a citywide ordinance. Commissioner Lu. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Oh, I agree that we should continue with the citywide ordinance. If there’s 5
some scientific basis that we should be more strict in the Baylands or Foothills, I’d also be open 6
to that. But – yeah. With the applicability standards, I’m personally fine with applying at least 7
the current kind of scope and discussion to the whole city. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. So now to Vice-Chair Reckdahl who wanted to talk about the 10
curfew. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I like the concept of a curfew. I’m worried about the applicability. 13
How easy it’s going to be to − for the homeowner to install something that has − knows the 14
time of day. So I think we ought to concern – examine that. But I think we can get by if we have 15
timers for anything that’s overnight. I think that that really should mitigate a lot and is that a 16
better solution as to have anything that’s on overnight be on a timer with a very short time. Is 17
that a more feasible way of… 18
19
Chair Chang: Do you mean motion sensor rather than timer? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Sorry. A motion sensor with a timer, right? So it goes on and does not stay 2
on for 10 minutes. It stays on for 2 minutes. Something like that. 3
4
Chair Chang: Right. But it would still mean that we can’t have a curfew that’s immediately 5
applicable because without changing out the light fixture, that wouldn’t be a possibility. So it 6
sounds like we would want to limit the applicability of the curfew as well. Is that correct? 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I think that’s more feasible. 9
10
Chair Chang: Yes, I think so too. But I just wanted to understand your comment. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, that’s my comment is that I’m more − like I said if I could wave a 13
magic wand and have the curfew but I don’t think it’s feasible − more or less feasible. That’s 14
what staff will tell us. 15
16
Chair Chang: I think staff already commented on that. They didn’t really know and so they can 17
investigate that more. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, investigate. But I’m not convinced that a curfew with the time of day 1
is actually what we want. That – they can investigate. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. So does staff need a motion from us? I think you probably do, right? To… 4
5
Kelly Cha: Oh, yes. 6
7
Chair Chang: Mr. Frick. 8
9
Coleman Frick: Yeah, I just had a point of a clarification. So when the curfew discussion came up 10
sort of in the – this earlier discussion, there was questions about like the new or existing 11
buildings. Is there kind of clarification in like how that’s addressed? Is it the same as the general 12
applicability? Is that kind of the consensus or is it something different in terms of – because 13
currently as written, it says to all new and existing buildings. Is it – is that clear direction from 14
the… 15
16
Chair Chang: No, I think what we… 17
18
Coleman Frick: …Commission on… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: I thank you for the clarifying question. I’m going to play back what I’ve heard from 1
my colleagues and again, just – maybe Commissioner Hechtman actually wants to say 2
something about this. So do you want to go ahead? 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: No, I think I [inaudible 129:20] I was going to say the same thing that 5
you are. I think where we evolved is the applicability is going to be new or substantially 6
remodeled buildings. 7
8
Coleman Frick: Okay. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: But not existing. Right? And that… 11
12
Coleman Frick: For the curfew also? 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: For the curfew. 15
16
Coleman Frick: Okay. 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: Right. So… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: We don’t think that a curfew – unless you tell us that the technology exists out 1
there, we think that a curfew would be very difficult for homeowners to enact because unless 2
they can put their lights on timer like that their fixtures are able to know what time it is, that it 3
would require the installation of a new light fixture, which is – and that’s not something that we 4
want to be in the position of having to enforce. 5
6
Kelly Cha: So just to clar-, clarify further. Sorry. So if we the staff cannot find that the 7
technology is readily available and easy to implement, that sentence − in the first sentence 8
under – sorry. Under the lighting control section for A will be removed. Would that basically 9
suffice? 10
11
Chair Chang: I think it’s the reverse… 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: No. 14
15
Chair Chang: …of what you just said. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Our belief is that the technology is not readily available or without a homeowner 1
incurring a substantial inconvenience or cost. So unless you tell us there’s a really easy way for 2
a homeowner to enact a curfew, we would like that − to strike that sentence. 3
4
Kelly Cha: Okay. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. Thanks. 7
8
Coleman Frick: Great. That’s sufficient direction for us to bring it back for the consideration and 9
then [inaudible 131:02] – oh, go ahead [inaudible 131:04]. 10
11
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 12
13
Commissioner Lu: And I think even in that case for single-family homes, we should also consider 14
a phase-in period for multi-family or some way of defining like director discretion or like slightly 15
extend the timelines for cases like mine. And I imagine cases for many other condos and 16
apartments, which might not be able to immediately afford like an expensive rewiring. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: The direction we’re going though is that your building and those that 1
you’ve just described, the curfew won’t apply to them until there’s a substantial remodel. 2
You’re exempt until there’s a substantial remodel. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Okay. I was also a little bit confused by the comment earlier saying that if 5
there was a way to upgrade the fixtures easily, then maybe that’s like – we seem to be saying 6
that we should have 4A apply to existing buildings. And so I realize that we’re potentially 7
opening… 8
9
Chair Chang: No, I think that… 10
11
Commissioner Lu: …that door. 12
13
Chair Chang: …makes sense. 14
15
Commissioner Lu: So I also wanted to clarify that like we should still be mindful and find a 16
reasonable way forward on the… 17
18
Chair Chang: So I think there might be – I think Commissioner Lu is bringing up a blanket point, 19
which is if there is anything in the ordinance that then staff decides, given all our feedback, 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
makes sense to apply universally to everybody, then in that situation, there should be some 1
sort of timeframe or guideline as to what’s the grace period for this and when must it be 2
enacted. 3
4
Male: Okay. Great. That’s helpful. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. 7
8
Coleman Frick: Can… 9
10
Chair Chang: Go ahead. 11
12
Coleman Frick: Sorry. 13
14
Chair Chang: Go ahead. 15
16
Coleman Frick: About the – just while we have this opportunity, I think it’s helpful, so we can 17
kind of bring back something and there’s just one other area that I felt like was discussed but 18
I’m not sure if there is sort of – I don’t know. Consensus direction on kind of where to go with 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
it. And that’s outdoor lighting for commercial properties that aren’t public facilities or – so 1
essentially, outdoor lighting for general safety purposes. I was wondering if there’s any… 2
3
Chair Chang: Can you put up that slide because there was a carve-out I remember. Is this the 4
one that you’re referring to? 5
6
Coleman Frick: So there is the carve-out for public facilities or city operations but they’re – one 7
thing that we haven’t sort of proposed but it seems like has come up is for private commercial 8
enterprises. So we’ve talked about the service stations in that narrow context but let’s say a 9
business that’s operating after dark that has a parking lot, for example, that has lighting. I was 10
just wondering if there’s any sort of thoughts or direction for when we bring this back related 11
to that context. So like, for example, maybe a safety exception for some commercial operations 12
of private businesses. 13
14
Chair Chang: I didn’t know if anybody has – Commissioner Hechtman has his light… 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Ghost. 17
18
Chair Chang: A ghost light. Okay. And then Commissioner Lu. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: I would need to think about and catch up on the exact wording of how this 1
would work for private parking lots. I would generally suspect that kind of sweeping lighting for 2
public parking lots would fall for existing parking lots to be covered by the same applicability 3
standards but we would want to – yeah. Like this could be quite wide and sweeping in terms of 4
their light. And so we would want to limit that. My main thought though was on businesses 5
with like substantial patios or that are entirely outdoors, things like the Rose and Crown, things 6
like Backyard Brew, so on. There are a bunch of examples. And in those cases, I would hope 7
that we tie similar standards to our permanent Parklet Program. I expect in our permanent 8
Parklet Program, we would have some flexibility where – within the parklet, like there could 9
actually – like the owner could have a little bit of discretion on the atmosphere they want to 10
create or how they kind of light their space. And I would expect that to apply as well to patios, 11
outdoor dining, things like that. 12
13
Chair Chang: I’m not sure we gave you what you wanted, but I had suggested that you could 14
rely on – I think – so what I’m hearing from my colleagues is that our concern is about where 15
the core business of a – the core business needs to take place outdoors. In which case, 16
hopefully the CUP – hopefully that the lighting would also be governed by the CUP and hours of 17
operation. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Coleman Frick: Okay. Great. Thanks. Just – I think that’s sufficient kind of based on the past 1
discussion but just wanted to make sure I was kind of capturing all of that in terms of other sort 2
of conditions that are safety-related. So we can bring something back based on the discussion 3
this evening after having more time to discuss it internally. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. And then can somebody tell me if we need a motion on this? 6
7
Male: I don’t think so. 8
9
Chair Chang: I don’t think so. Okay. Nobody’s popping up, so we’re going to… 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Before we do… 12
13
Chair Chang: Yeah. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: …I have one more clarification I think we need to provide to staff. 16
17
Chair Chang: Please go ahead. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: And that’s on the Kelvins. So I’ve heard a couple of the – well the 1
Chair and Vice-Chair, I think, referenced a 2700. I referenced the 3 and I think we should get 2
some consensus, so that when we get a draft ordinance come back, it will have either 3 or 3
2700. I will say that I can go either way. But what I’d like − since this is coming back, I would like 4
staff to invite our safety personnel to come explain to us why they’re concerned about 5
whatever number, 27 or 3, anything less than 4, since we have that opportunity because we are 6
going to see it again. And so I’m support-, I’ll support whatever majority of the rest of the 7
Commission goes with in terms of staff putting a number in to bring it back to us. 8
9
Male: Great. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. 12
13
Male: And I think we do need a motion to continue to a date uncertain. 14
15
Chair Chang: Yeah. I think that’s – is that what Mr. Yang is popping up for? You’re on mute, Mr. 16
Yang. 17
18
Assistant City Attorney Albert Yang: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. So it sounds like what Commissioner Hechtman is suggesting to make 1
staff’s life easier is if we could give them some direction on like the number that we want. So 2
should we just go down the line and say what that is? And then regardless of what number that 3
is, we would like to hear from the public safety folks or whoever was objecting to 2700. And 4
then perhaps if you have any science on – if the public safety folks have any science. Because 5
we got the science and why the 2700. So now we’d like to hear the science on why something 6
higher than 2700. Okay. And then Commissioner Templeton. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: I like your suggestion. I would adjust it to say what our principles are 9
instead of the numbers because we aren’t as you mentioned − we aren’t the experts on those 10
numbers. So what if we said we want to do the thing that is a good balance between safety and 11
not harming the animals or whatever… 12
13
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Great suggestion. All right. So Commissioner Templeton, do you want 14
to start? 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Yes, I would like to have the best balance between safety and not 17
harming the animals. So, thank you. 18
19
Chair Chang: And then let’s just go down the line. Commissioner Hechtman. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: The number? 2
3
Chair Chang: Yeah. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 6
7
Chair Chang: And the principle behind it. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh. Well – so the number is – I’m supportive of either 27 or 3,000 10
being in the draft. And again, what I’m looking for is the lowest light that is safe for humans in 11
the vicinity. 12
13
Chair Chang: Commissioner – or Vice-Chair Reckdahl. 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. I’d say 2700 unless we can be shown that there’s some safety issues. 16
And then if so, can we have a time duration short enough to minimize the effect of that higher 17
temperature. 18
19
Chair Chang: Great. I would say the same thing as Commissioner Reckdahl. Commissioner Akin? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: That’s tough. I have to put on my engineer’s hat. There are a lot of other 2
issues that may come in to play that make it complex. But as I said earlier, the choice of color 3
temperature is not going to make or break this for me. So yeah, I think the correct approach is 4
as Vice-Chair Reckdahl described. 5
6
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Yeah, I’m also with Commissioner Akin. I would be happy to see 2700 but 9
would be flexible depending on what City staff say about safety or other – the kind of pragmatic 10
concerns. 11
12
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you all. Let’s see if we can generate a motion to get this off our plates 13
and move on to the next item. Would anybody like to hazard a try? Commissioner Hechtman. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: I think it’s pretty simple. I move we continue Item 4A – I’m sorry, 2A 16
to a date uncertain, so that staff can have time to investigate and revise the draft ordinance 17
and bring it back to us with an invitation to our safety personnel to speak to us on their views 18
on the Kelvin issue. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Second. 1
2
Chair Chang: Any further discussion? Okay. Ms. Dao, could you please take the vote? 3
4
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 5
6
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 9
10
Chair Chang: Yes. 11
12
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 15
16
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 17
18
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Veronica Dao: Commis-, Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 1
2
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 3
4
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. So we finished that item. I have that it is 8:13 PM on my watch. We will take 11
a 7-minute break and then come back to discuss bird safety. Thank you. Am I okay yet? Okay. 12
Here we are. We are all back. So welcome back. We’re going to resume and march along on our 13
agenda. So the next item that we are going to address now is Item 2B, which addresses adding 14
a new section 18.40.280 Bird-Friendly Design. And again at this time, I’d like to take additional 15
public comment from anybody who did not comment at our last meeting on this item. Ms. Dao, 16
are there any speaker cards or raised hands? 17
18
PUBLIC COMMENTS 19
20
Veronica Dao: No, I have no requests to speak. 21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. Great then. So we’re going to move forward now with clarifying questions 2
from Commissioners. So light’m up. Okay. First, we have Commissioner Akin, then 3
Commissioner Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. Just one easy one this time. I was curious about the 24 6
square foot limit for transparent fenestration. Just curious as to how that was arrived at. 7
8
Kelly Cha: So we’ve looked at different city ordinances and one of them was San Francisco 9
regulations and they do have those regulations. Basically, they have exemptions for their 10
location base requirements and part of that exemption is that if any of the façade has more 11
than 50 percent of glazing, then they do require that the windows are glazing to have those 12
bird-safe treated glasses but only to those that are 24 square feet or larger. And in addition to 13
looking at that, we’ve also looked at some of the common sizes of the windows and we found – 14
staff found that most – majority of it is smaller than 24 square feet, that it might mitigate some 15
of the concerns with the single-family homes. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. And that raises another question for me. In one of the 1
presentation slides, you had an accordion fold wall illustrated and I’ve – if you mentioned it last 2
time, I’ve forgotten why was that – why was that illustrated particularly? 3
4
Kelly Cha: So that was to represent − sort of like provide visual for some examples of potentially 5
– because the sliding door seems to be large but those sliding doors are broken into two. So I’ll 6
share that particular image. Sorry. I’ll share the screen. So as you can see, this is sort of a newer 7
accordion doors. These are – so the requirement – the standard says that it has to be 24 square 8
feet or larger and it has to be unbroken, meaning that we will be looking at this one portion as 9
one instead of looking at entire accordion door together. So for these − the regular sliding 10
doors when the staff looked at it − it’s usually − typically like 20 square feet, so it’ll be under 24 11
as well. So that was… 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Okay. 14
15
Kelly Cha: …the reason why [inaudible 155:56]. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Thank you. But one other question I had about that was is it an issue that 1
when they’re all the way open that you have a free path for a bird to fly through? 2
3
Kelly Cha: That is a concern. We do have – let me quickly look at the bird hazard installation 4
defined that basically is talking about sort of the feature-based elements like balconies with 5
glass railing and then the outdoor staircases with glass railing or things like that, so that we can 6
definitely limit those as well. If it’s completely open, that might be another case but – so that 7
particular provision is there to kind of prevent those kind of incidents. 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. That’s all I had. 10
11
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. Just a question on stakeholder engagement, which is 14
Packet Page 18. You mentioned in the staff report you engaged with Audubon Society and 15
Sierra Club, had a couple of study sessions but the burdens of this ordinance are going to 16
largely fall on the development community, homebuilders, commercial building builders. And 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
so I wanted to hear what outreach you did in engagement with the development community 1
that is going to foot the bill for this. 2
3
Kelly Cha: We haven’t had specific meetings targeted to the development community, but we 4
have conducted two study sessions with Architectural Review Board and that was widely 5
advertised with whatever is required by the code. And then – and also in addition to that, while 6
researching we had – staff had reached out to several architects in the local community to find 7
out some information related to some strategies in their experience with bird-safe glass and 8
design. So we have spoken to, I believe – we have reached to about five different individual 9
architects and we’ve gotten − received – we’ve received response from two out of five and 10
received some information related to the cost and some additional information related to 11
suppliers and things like that. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Great. I was hoping you had taken those kinds of steps and I’m glad 14
to hear you did. I shouldn’t be surprised that you did. Thanks. 15
16
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. Just to kind of ask for some more color about that, can you give an 1
intuition on the − like dollar costs for a window or maybe a larger like project and how that 2
actually translates? 3
4
Kelly Cha: So the cost information we − staff tried to find it like really hard. So as part of the 5
research to find some cost information, it was very difficult to get that like dollar amount or 6
percentage even from architects because those are not something that they re-, I guess it’s re-, 7
not something readily available. You would have to research into it and get the calculations 8
done. So they were not able to provide. We’ve reached out to retailers who have also said it’s 9
difficult to do that. But we found some research from 2011, which is a little bit old, so it might 10
be not as significant. But according to that research − this is the bird − American Bird 11
Conservancy Report, which included research into cost from like different cities and basically 12
nationwide. And that basically said 2 to 10 percent of the cost – additional cost. But staff also 13
spoke to our local expert and she had mentioned that recently there’s some data available that 14
says that it’s about maximum 1.5 percent increase. It wouldn’t go above maybe 2 percent. 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Got it. And I think that’s useful because 2 percent is really – could be really 17
significant. For example, for like a affordable housing project funded by a 4 percent tax credit or 18
something like that. So I’m glad that there’s like some flexibility for affordable housing projects. 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
So the ordinance as written covers, I guess, more expensive like permanent etchings or other 1
treatments to the glass. I know the Audubon Society, for example, sells like decals that can 2
applied that are bird safe, that are presumably much less expensive than having finely-etched 3
glass. Was there any consideration of allowing non-permanent treatments in this ordinance? 4
5
Kelly Cha: So that was part of the discussion from ARB as well. So because of the cost burden to 6
single-family homes or smaller-scale development, that was brought up. That – and also one of 7
the architects mentioned that the cost would be minimal if we were to allow like decals or 8
stickers to the windows. The concern is that it can be also easily removed. So staff decided that 9
maybe it might be okay if we provide multiple options that it – the cost burden might be also – 10
might not − might be mitigated. But the applicability basically is another thing that we have 11
changed from the ARB version. It now includes only the – applies to new constructions and 12
substantial remodel within the bird-sensitive area and also – I mean all of the single-family 13
homes or other types of the buildings would have to apply if their windows are larger than 24 14
square feet, but that also mitigates a lot of – because most of the homes do not have those big 15
windows. So it sort of mitigates with those requirements. 16
17
Coleman Frick: If… 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: It’s… 2
3
Coleman Frick: …I may sort of add to that. So to the question of whether we considered 4
alternate means, including decals, yeah, that was part of the discussion. And we ultimately 5
decided not to include that because it is removeable. So it seems like it may not kind of meet 6
the effect of − or the intent. But that is something that the PTC could consider in their 7
recommendation if you would want to add that back in based on a cost concern as part of 8
direction to staff. 9
10
Kelly Cha: And that can be easily done by changing the language under D1. By changing the 11
permanent or… 12
13
Chair Chang: Could you just speak into the mic while you’re saying that… 14
15
Kelly Cha: Oh, sorry. 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: …because you turned your head aside and I couldn’t hear. 2
3
Kelly Cha: If the Planning and Transportation Commission would like to modify and allow that 4
temporary – or not temporary – decals or stickers to be allowed for bird safety treatments, that 5
can be easily done by modifying the language under D1C where it says [inaudible 164:12] 6
ceramic ink or other marker types must be obscured and permanent, we can just remove the 7
permanent at the end. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. 10
11
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Thank you. I can take that up in discussion. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Chang: All right. Ms. Templeton – or – sorry. Commissioner Templeton. You are also a Ms. 14
Templeton. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to say that there’s a cost to not doing 1
this. I have lived in homes and worked in buildings that do not have the bird-safe glazing and 2
it’s a lot. It’s a lot of damaged birds, so I can say that [inaudible 164:54] probably a justifiable 3
reason to put these in here. So I’m glad about that. The question I had was I thought I heard at 4
the beginning of tonight that there was a person who was recommending against it. And I’m 5
wondering if you guys can remem-, if staff can remind me what the objections to this were. It 6
sounded like they were referring to last time. I just want to make sure I’m clear about what 7
we’re talking about. 8
9
Kelly Cha: Staff is not aware of anybody objecting this particular ordinance. 10
11
Coleman Frick: I… 12
13
Kelly Cha: Or… 14
15
Coleman Frick: Are you speaking to the comments at the beginning of the meeting? 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 1
2
Coleman Frick: Okay. So I think the – it was about sort of not taking this – not making a 3
recommendation to the Council yet on this item but potentially splitting kind of the lighting 4
item separately. Is that what you’re discussing or am I not… 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Well I understood… 7
8
Coleman Frick: …[inaudible 165:56] the question. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: …we split it. But I didn’t understand what the reference to this item 11
like – I didn’t know what the problem was. 12
13
Chair Chang: Yeah. So the reference was from the public commenter who was saying that they 14
thought that the Dark Skies Ordinance hadn’t – was closer to being done than this one. That 15
there’s a lot of more nuance in this one. So maybe for this one, even though – it wasn’t so much 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that they didn’t support the ordinance. They want a bird-friendly design ordinance but just that 1
it’s not ready for primetime. That was the comment. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. But we didn’t get a lot of details on that and we’re going to be 4
discussing that now. Okay. Got it. 5
6
Chair Chang: Yeah. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. Additional clarifying questions? I’m going to go because I don’t see any 11
lights. So I would like to – I also had a question about the cost of doing this. And so Ms. Cha, you 12
had mentioned that you consulted our local expert, so if we could just get a little bit more detail 13
from our local expert and ask our local expert to talk about what data there is about the cost 14
that’s different from what staff has found. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Shani Kleinhaus: Okay. So what I know is that for homes, they’re only custom providing – 1
providers. So for homes to retrofit glass can be very costly. And so the solutions for homes 2
really should look at the design as well as potentially if the design cannot mitigate the problem, 3
then you might want to go into asking them to do some additional retrofitting of the glass. But 4
generally, it’s expensive. For multi – for mixed use and for offices, there are many solutions and 5
both in terms of the design itself or in terms of using retrofitted glass like with some kind of 6
lines or dots or stuff like that. The projects I’ve worked with companies, they don’t like to 7
disclose. I know one for sure and that was a few years ago and it was [inaudible 168:14] over 8
the end of San Antonio. And their building was 20 million dollars and the cost of the retrofit – 9
and they have lines and they actually are really nice. It’s beautiful. But anyway, that was 10
$200,000 for the retrofit. And that is a local company that was willing to disclose how much it 11
cost them to do that. It’s a large building and it’s all glass. And that is percent, not of the entire 12
building, but core and shell, meaning only the envelope. It doesn’t include everything that adds 13
cost to the building later like air conditioning and carpets and all that. So the envelope, that was 14
20 million dollars and out of that, 200,000 was the bird-safe design. But for homes again, really 15
the [inaudible 169:04] should be not needing to retrofit the glass. So don’t create those kind of 16
hazardous situations. For offices and for – for offices, there’s so many solutions. All the big 17
companies around here are implementing it anything from Facebook and Menlo Park, [Go-Go 18
169:23] Microsoft, Intuit, all of them. And for mixed use, also in North Bayshore and other 19
places, the solutions are there. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Thank you. Okay. So my clarifying – additional clar-, that was very helpful to the – I 2
think that clarification about like the 20 million external envelope cost and then the retrofitting 3
being 200,000, that’s at least one data point that does – at least one data point to support that 4
general data point of up to 2 percent. But it sounds like it’s not necessarily up to 2 percent of 5
the entire building. It may be up to 2 percent of just the external envelope of the building. 6
Okay. I had a question about the staff report on page – oh, goodness. I’m looking at my old staff 7
report, so minus 121. Page 17. Staff – page 17 at the top. I just – there looks like there’s a typo. 8
And so I was just wondering what staff was trying to say at the beginning of the first paragraph. 9
So it says, “The definition of bird-sensitive area was simplified to include a specific geographic 10
areas east of Highway 101 and west of Foothills Expressways since the 300 foot buffer period.” 11
So was that just a – like are we just supposed to strike since the 300 foot buffer? 12
13
Kelly Cha: Yes. So basically, the – sorry about that. Staff was trying to explain that the previous 14
version basically showed – the map showed that majority of the Foothill and Baylands area, 15
which is east of 101, west of Foothill Expressway. With the buffer study, it – majority of the 16
area included those areas. So that staff decided to just include – instead of having sort of like 17
smaller areas not included, we’ve decided to include the portion – those two areas inclusive – 18
included in the bird safe completely. 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. Okay. My next clarifying question is regarding – okay. I think this 2
may have already been answered. But my question is regarding the third bullet on the same 3
page, so page 17 where it talks about a threat factor of 15 or below. And so my question to staff 4
was are those materials readily available at that low of a threat factor? 5
6
Kelly Cha: So staff decision to kind of have three options available was to provide some feasible 7
– some flexibility in design. So the first two options are there for majority of the buildings. 8
Threat factor is very – like sort of a very technical that we don’t anticipate some of the smaller 9
development or single-family homes to use it. Most likely, some innovated design and 10
architectural design may need some additional options, so we wanted to provide that 11
additional option. Threat factor 15 is basically similar to what we’re asking for with the 12
fenestration. So if you were to kind of look at the materials for threat factor 15, those are 13
similar to the staff recommendation on the [inaudible 172:50] glasses. 14
15
Chair Chang: So my question is because I saw some other public comment and I can’t 16
remember what that was about threat factor 20 or 25. So I was wondering if we could ask sort 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
of our local expert again about sort of the availability of threat factor 15 material because I 1
want to – we’re really trying to include it. I wanted to see is it readily available. So could I ask… 2
3
Kelly Cha: Yeah. And then I’ll just supplement it before Shani to supplement that information. 4
The threat factor is something that we the – it’s a calculations of all of the materials. So I think 5
you just have to go through the materials to make sure that what number of threat factor that 6
particular material poses. So I… 7
8
Chair Chang: So is it an average you’re saying over the square footage or is it like – if I have a 9
piece of glass, I thought that – my understanding was that if I had a piece of glass, that piece of 10
glass has a specific threat factor rating. So my question is can you buy threat factor 15 glass 11
given that I saw in some of the other public comments something about either – or maybe it 12
was even in the model ordinance about a different number. 13
14
Kelly Cha: I believe that it is possible. When the staff was researching this information, staff 15
basically – heavily based on the American Bird Conservancy Website where they had some 16
threat factor materials − database with threat factor information. So staff thought that might 17
be something that anyone can reference and include or consider different materials from that 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
database. And also the U.S. – the [inaudible 174:42] has a certain way of calculating the threat 1
factor of any materials as well and they usually request the form to be submitted to confirm 2
that threat factor. So there is a way of evaluating a threat factor of any materials. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. So I’m looking at Packet Page 123 – Packet Page 23, where it’s the model 5
ordinance. And the model ordinance with respect to little – Roman numeral 7, number 1: The 6
American Bird Conservancy Model Ordinance suggests anything with a threat factor rating of 7
30. And staff is saying 15. So my concern is that we’re going above board here and that like if 8
the [model ordinance 175:36]. So can I just ask… 9
10
Kelly Cha: Oh, yeah. 11
12
Chair Chang: …Ms. Kleinhaus… 13
14
Kelly Cha: [Inaudible 175:40]. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: …to opine on this because I think this is pretty important and maybe – may require 1
some more staff research. Yeah. 2
3
Shani Kleinhaus: Thank you. So the American Bird Conservancy has a system where they fly 4
birds in a tunnel – a dark tunnel. At the end, there’s two pieces of glass. They see which one 5
collides more, on the retrofitted glass or a different kind of glass. And from that, they have a 6
really complicated and incomprehensible calculation of a threat factor. The threat factor, they 7
go up to 30, they say is okay. It’s roughly like 30 percent of the birds that fly towards that glass 8
will [inaudible 176:18] it. Not exactly but roughly. So they recommend 30 and they have a table 9
of a lot of materials that start with a wall, which is 1, because it’s just a brick wall to other kinds 10
of materials that become more and more dangerous to birds and they go towards above 30. 11
We recommended 25, if you want to use that at all, with the exception of no UV because UV 12
only works in the tunnel and doesn’t work outside of that tunnel. But the calculation that staff 13
recommended is an average and the lead number – I don’t know. There’s a lead calculation that 14
you can use – looks at an average. And so what we’ve seen – and I showed it last time, I think. Is 15
some buildings that one side will be a brick wall, the other side is a complete glass but they can 16
overall do some kind of averaging to get them to 15 and it’s still very dangerous to birds. And so 17
we were hoping – and that’s just one of the details as why we asked you not to move it forward 18
yet. Because the 25, if you use that, there’s a lot of different options. They’re – some of them 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
are vey pretty. There’s a lot of different options. The 15 allows some really dangerous as well as 1
very strong – so it’s an average. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Kleinhaus. Okay. That helps. And then I think I have a final 4
clarifying question, which is on Packet Page 1 – on Packet Page 19 – I can’t do the math any 5
more. It was Packet Page 140, so that would be 19. Attachment C. It refers to a model 6
ordinance from the Santa Clara Audubon Society. I only saw a model ordinance from somebody 7
else. The American – yeah. It wasn’t the Audubon Society. So I’m wondering is that just a typo 8
or did I miss a model ordinance? All right. Okay. So I see in the packet a model ordinance from 9
American Bird Conservancy but I don’t see a model ordinance from Santa Clara Audubon 10
Society. 11
12
Kelly Cha: So that should have said The American Bird Conservancy. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. 15
16
Kelly Cha: We received it from Audubon Society. 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. So now onto Vice-Chair Reckdahl. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Can you bring up the presentation and go to… 4
5
Chair Chang: Speak into your mic. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Sorry. Can you bring up the presentation, please? Go to Slide 14. Okay. 8
The – so what kind of threat factor would this design be? 9
10
Kelly Cha: This will be 15. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: This is… 13
14
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: According to staff research, the 2 by 2 was 15 but we can definitely come back with 1
that information confirmed. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Yeah, that’d be interesting to see compared to some of the other – 4
so this could be achieved with a film but we don’t allow that film because you could remove 5
that film? Is that the issue? 6
7
Kelly Cha: So that was a concern because if it is a sticker or film, that anybody can definitely 8
remove easily and it wouldn’t comply with the standards if so. 9
10
Coleman Frick: And if – even if it’s not intentionally removed, if it started to come off or 11
something… 12
13
Chair Chang: Your mic. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Coleman Frick: Oh, sorry. Even if it wasn’t intentionally removed, if it started to come off, it 1
might present like an issue of maintenance over time to maintain the deterrent. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 6
7
Coleman Frick: Again, the Commission could consider something different if that’s the direction. 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, but a film like that would be much less expensive and I would like to 10
− maybe you can investigate the pros and cons of that. It seems to me that if we can save 11
people money, we should save people money if it protects the birds. Shani, do you have a – do 12
you want to express your opinion? 13
14
Shani Kleinhaus: Film wears out. Usually, they last 7 years or so, and then you have to replace it. 15
So I think if you’re going to use it for homes but not for businesses maybe – I don’t know. Even 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
– maybe not even that. I mean if staff is correct and there is a clause that says that people can 1
request an alternative that staff can approve if needed. But for a mixed use and offices, I 2
[wouldn’t 181:15]. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. That makes sense. For homes, that seems like a good option. Slide 5
13, the 40 feet. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there different cities had different thresholds 6
for where – what height we care about? 7
8
Kelly Cha: That’s correct. Sorry. I’m going to share. 9
10
Chair Chang: Could you pull up the slide, please? 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Slide 13. 13
14
Chair Chang: So that everybody knows what we’re talking about. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: So… 1
2
Chair Chang: There we go. 3
4
Kelly Cha: Staff looked at other cities. I believe San Francisco and Cupertino has 60 feet and 5
their percentage is basically 90 percent below 40 feet – up to 40 feet and anything above 40 6
feet would be 95 percent. Staff looked at other examples like – so this is particularly from 7
CALGreen standards. So they do have a voluntary program on bird safety. And so staff just 8
basically borrowed that standard. It has – and also the 40 feet might be a little bit more feasible 9
for Palo Alto but staff understands that we have addition – we have housing element and 10
additional focus areas where we allow taller and denser development. So if Commission thinks 11
that this is a little bit too short – I mean the height is – then it can definitely be considered for 12
60 feet, which is what the Cupertino… 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I don’t know the right answer but this is something that I want you 15
to scrub a little more. Is this 40 foot [arbitrarian 182:56] or is there some science based on – 16
but… 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: Staff felt a little bit better borrowing from CALGreen standards because it’s a b-, part 1
of the building code, which means that they had gone through some research with the data 2
backing up. But also that means that they’re looking at California as a whole. So they’re looking 3
at the entire state. So there’s always a way for Commissioners to consider additional height on 4
this and Cupertino has 60 feet. San Francisco has also 60 feet. And I believe the local expert had 5
recommended 60 feet as well, so it – this can be discussed and modified. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Shani, can… 8
9
Shani Kleinhaus: I’ve been working on this for about 30 years, so – I mean wires, antennas, all 10
these things, buildings too. But this is really – I’m considered an expert on this. So the reason 11
why 60 feet in the nearby communities is that most of the collisions, not all obviously, but most 12
of them occur at the height of the trees. And if you have trees that are taller than 40 feet, then 13
you want to accommodate more than 40 feet because the birds – that’s kind of where they fly 14
in the city. Very tall buildings like skyscrapers capture or kill different kinds of birds that migrate 15
very high at night. But the – most of the collisions occur at the heights of trees. And we have 16
Redwoods [inaudible 184:33] Palo Alto. I mean we need to be – 40 feet is just not right for 17
this… 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 2
3
Shani Kleinhaus: …in my opinion. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. Can you go to Packet Page 46? Maybe bring it up on the 6
screens. 7
8
Kelly Cha: I will have that up but it might take a little bit longer than… 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Oh, okay. 11
12
Kelly Cha: So if you don’t mind just starting the comment. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So – I mean this map kind of scares me because it seems… 15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Is there a question here, Commissioner… 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: What? 4
5
Chair Chang: Is there a question? So I wanted… 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Is this clarifying still? 8
9
Chair Chang: Yeah. We’re just clarifying questions quickly. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Sorry. Okay. I – we’ll talk about this later then. 12
13
Chair Chang: Do you have other clarifying questions? No? 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: No. 1
2
Chair Chang: Okay. I think that’s it for clarifying questions. So now if you would like to go with 3
your comments, please go ahead, Vice-Chair. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Yeah, so I thought we were diving straight into it. I didn’t realize we 6
were clarifying. Yeah, so this really scares me. It seems like this is overly complicated. I see like 7
Barron Creek. And Barron Creek is just a little trickle. And all these concrete creeks, I don’t think 8
have any more attraction to birds than nice clusters of tall trees, which are all over Palo Alto 9
with [inaudible 186:07] canopy. I don’t think there is anything much different between a 10
concrete creek and just a regular street. So I – why is it so complicated? What – do you want to 11
explain the genesis of this map? 12
13
Kelly Cha: So the 300 feet is usually the buffer distance that the planning – urban planning uses 14
for sensitive population. So that’s the buffer distance we use for considering the bird 15
population as a sensitive population. And using – so this is mainly based on San Francisco, who 16
had adopted the bird-sensitive or bird-friendly ordinance back in 2011. They have conducted 17
some research and found out that in the large vegetated areas like parks and open space and 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
water features like Baylands or creeks can be where some areas where birds are attracted to 1
stay or maybe stay a while migrating. So we followed the same methodology and created bird- 2
sensitive area buffering from open space and parks larger than 1 acre and also any creeks or 3
water features. But it’s something that the Commission can definitely discuss and modify as 4
needed. Staff recommendation is if anything to be modified that we still consider Baylands and 5
Foothills and potentially discuss and give us direction on the flatland portion. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. [Inaudible 188:04]. 8
9
Chair Chang: I don’t see other lights, so I’m going to go. So in terms of my general comments, 10
first of all, I think that staff – this is a commendable effort. I’m so glad to see that we are trying 11
to do the right thing here. Before I heard the public comment, my reaction to this ordinance 12
was that it wasn’t quite right for a couple reasons. The ordinance itself is missing a whole bunch 13
of definitions. And so there are quite a few terms as I was reading through it, I wasn’t entirely – 14
it was like you could see that it was based off of the model ordinance but it didn’t grab the 15
definition from the model ordinance. So I’m not going to point out all of those de-, those places 16
but there was some missing definitions. I’m also – I feel like it’s both too stringent in some 17
places and too lax in others. In other words, some of the suggestion – some of the ordinance, I 18
think, might be – so I think there’s a big applicability question here. I think that we may want to 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
treat – because of the nature of the materials and how easy and hard it is for say homeowners 1
to get materials [inaudible 189:22]. I recently went through a remodel. No where did I see 2
anything about bird-safe windows being available for me to purchase versus a commercial 3
building where they’re buying skyscraper glass that just comes with all these little lines and 4
stuff. That’s not something that I can buy as a homeowner. So I wonder about the applicability 5
there and that maybe what we need to do – that’s like a segway into another aspect of 6
applicability, which is this map that is currently up on the screen that Vice-Chair Reckdahl 7
referred to. That map terrifies me because I want an ordinance that is easy for people to 8
understand when it is applicable to them. So if we say this applies to commercial, anybody 9
who’s building a commercial or mixed-use building knows that they are building a commercial 10
or mixed-use building. Now if I am doing a − if I’m a resident doing a remodel or new 11
construction on my house, and I look at this map, like I might not realize that I’m in one of these 12
zones. And I think that I can do something when I can’t do something and it’s like everywhere. 13
On the other hand, if we simplify it dramatically and we say, “Okay, it’s east of 101 or – and 14
west of Foothill,” again, I think that becomes really obvious to residents and so maybe how we 15
are defining applicability could be simplified to kind of get more oomph that’s also easily under 16
– save more birds in a more easily understandable way. And then also when I look at – I’m not 17
entirely sure that 101 should be the demarcation, particularly as I think about our housing 18
element and where we’re likely putting in a lot of very tall buildings. And we’ve talked about 19
this in several other meetings when we talked about the housing element and upzoning and – 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
we have a lot of new buildings that are probably going to be pretty high going up on the west 1
side of 101. And so we might need to make the bird-safe area a different street. Maybe it’s not 2
101; it’s something else. Because the birds do fly across 101. So that’s just food for thought 3
also. And then finally, when I was looking at that 24 square foot area for window as well as the 4
accordion door that you – I think about all the Eichlers in South Palo Alto. There’s like huge 5
windows in almost like all of those houses that’s far – it’s − 24 feet is 3 – sorry. Is 3 by 8 or 4 by 6
6. There are lots of houses in Palo Alto with windows that size. So I just am worried that we’re 7
kind of – I don’t want people to be turned off by this ordinance. I don’t think anybody wants 8
birds smashing into their windows. That’s traumatic. So I want to make it something that we 9
can feel good about doing but also make it something that is doable. So I think there’s lots of 10
little tweaks here and there and I’ll just leave it at that for my first round. Thanks. Okay. So we 11
have Commissioner Hechtman and then Commissioner Akin. And then Commissioner Lu. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: So generally, I’m supportive of the direction this ordinance is going. I 14
appreciate the work staff has done to consider a lot of sources in putting together the – tries to 15
be appropriate for Palo Alto. I do have a couple of concerns about the ordinance as currently 16
written. And incidentally, I live in an Eichler, and one of the first things I did when I was reading 17
the staff report, I went and measured my windows, which are big. They are under 24 square 18
feet. I don’t know if there are different Eichler designs that actually have larger windows like 19
where I have two big windows, maybe they have one really big window. So that could be a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
problem – significant problem because we get the occasional bird image on our Eichler glass. So 1
we haven’t had to clean up any from the backyard yet and I’ve lived there almost 30 years. But 2
they do strike the window rarely, a couple times a year. The two concerns I have – first, we’ve 3
got this new housing element and we are trying to accommodate up to 6,000 new units, 4
residential, over the next now 6½ years and a lot of that is going to be – almost all of that is 5
going to be dense development. Some mixed use. And I’m concerned that these costs could be 6
a constraint to new housing because these are big buildings, they are expensive, and 2 percent 7
of a big number is itself a big number. And so I’m concerned about that. And I wonder if in our 8
dialogue we should be at least discussing exemptions for – should we be talking about new or 9
substantially-built, single-family homes and what do we do about these larger mixed unit – 10
mixed-use projects that we are expecting to come. So that’s a big concern. A practical concern I 11
have is really with the definition of bird- sensitive area. Parts A and B, east of 101, west of 12
Foothill, I don’t have an issue there. It’s C. It’s basically within 300 feet of a waterway or other 13
open space of an acre or more. And I think that that definition is too broad and really lacks 14
context. Because when I think about 300 feet from a waterway − for example, I think about San 15
Francisquito Creek at Edgewood. So 300 feet captures the house that backs up to the creek, it 16
crosses Edgewood, it includes – which those houses are typically 100 feet deep. It includes the 17
house across Edgewood and then it goes into the backyard of the house that is fronting on 18
Hamilton. And so while I understand the birds using that riparian corridor, I don’t know that the 19
bird flights three houses over are any different than mine, which is another four houses into the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
neighborhood. And the same is true of our parks where 300 feet from our parks, you’re 1
probably at the third house. And so – and what’s interesting is when we were looking at this 2
map, if you look at Edgewood at San Francisquito Creek, it’s not showing 300 feet. It’s just 3
showing the house on the creek side of Edgewood, so that’s 100 or 120 feet. Because 4
Edgewood – you can see Edgewood Drive is the edge of the yellow. So as scary as this map is, I 5
think it actually understates the bird-sensitive area in that one instance by two-thirds because I 6
think it’s only showing 100 feet. So anyway, I think that really needs more work, and I think 7
there needs to be a contextual element to this. If the first structure isn’t for 300 feet, fine. But if 8
you’re talking about birds flying past multiple structures, why? How is that third structure any 9
different from the fourth, fifth, or sixth? So I think that needs further investigation. Thanks. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. Next we have Commissioner Akin, then Lu, then Templeton. 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I second all the concerns I’ve heard about the 14
definition of bird-sensitive area. I do wonder if it’s too complex to be usable in practice and if it 15
accurately captures the areas we’re trying to protect. I did reassure myself on one point though 16
because I also was concerned about the GM-ROLM areas near San Antonio because that’s come 17
up in past discussions here at the PTC. The GM area west of 101, I’m reassured about because 18
there are very few trees there and it is a long way away from any – across 101. And most of the 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
ROLM area is actually in the bird-sensitive area by virtue of the creeks passing through. So 1
interestingly, there are fewer problems there than I anticipated finding when I first looked. I 2
would like to promote the idea that we should be providing better bird protection up to 60 3
feet. I think that may be the right tradeoff to make. And regarding the threat factor, which I 4
believe is on Packet Page – top of Packet Page 30. Yeah. As has been pointed out, a weighted 5
average is missing a key characterization of the surface there. I am happy to see that it's on 6
each elevation rather than on the building as a whole, so that takes care of the concern that 7
one elevation might be a blank wall and another elevation might be all glass. So I’m glad you 8
captured that one already. But what’s missing is a measure of variability and there’s several 9
ways you could go about adjusting that. But the easiest is probably just to say that as a worst- 10
case, there must be nothing with a threat factor of – pick a number – 22 or greater. And then 11
the weighted average of 15 gets you the characterization that you really want as long as you 12
have that maximum in place. So that’s all that occurred to me. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Actually just want to start with one clarifying question, which I failed to ask 17
earlier. Can you confirm in the context of the 40 feet, how exactly we define façade? 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: Façade is basically the one elevation when you’re looking at the – like a plan 2
submittal. The façade will be the entire elevation, so – I don’t know if that… 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 5
6
Kelly Cha: Okay. 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Okay. So it includes the entire surface area… 9
10
Kelly Cha: Entire surface area. 11
12
Commissioner Lu: …of one direction of the wall, wouldn’t include any slanted roofs or anything. 13
Only the – like smooth, flat side of one wall per side? 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: I think that includes the elevation. 1
2
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. 3
4
Commissioner Akin: It’s the orthographic projection along one axis. 5
6
Female: That was a big word. 7
8
Male: Is that helpful? 9
10
Kelly Cha: If − usually when we’re looking – when a planner is looking at a submittal, if it has 11
some sort of a different angle, that’s included in that particular elevation, so it’ll be looked at 12
together. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: So if that… 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Okay. 4
5
Kelly Cha: …clarifies it. 6
7
Commissioner Lu: So anyways, for most facades – I can’t exactly picture this but like maybe 10 8
percent of it will be a window anyways. So if we say 90 percent coverage, we’re saying – and if 9
10 percent of it is a window, we’re saying that then those 10 percent of windows don’t need 10
any bird-safe treatment? 11
12
Kelly Cha: That can be – if it is really the 10 percent of the façade is the windows, that might be 13
correct. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: Okay. And if 20 percent of the façade were windows, then you would need 1
bird-safe treatment for half of that potentially? 2
3
Kelly Cha: Right. 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Okay. That is useful clarification, which I would need a second to think about. 6
But I am generally also a little bit concerned around the complexity of this map. I think there’s 7
some quirkiness like the Mayfield Soccer Complex might be considered a park here but it’s just 8
turf. I think like El Camino Park, I’m not sure if this is considered. Not sure totally like what that 9
little squiggle from College Terrace crossing into the Research Park is. So I think there’s some 10
kind of refinement that – or maybe just like a clarification of like pointing out some of the cases 11
that we’ve mentioned and clarifying that kind of everything is double checked here. My 12
greatest concern is that we create impediments for housing. Up to 2 percent is still a pretty big 13
difference that could make – that could really make a difference for projects penciling out. I 14
would personally be comfortable re-, giving flexibility for non-permanent film installations for 15
housing and also the housing part of any mixed-use development. I also understand that there’s 16
a carve-out for retail as well, at least first floor retail. So yeah, I would be comfortable with 17
some combination of carve-outs or like film satisfying for housing. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. Commissioner Templeton. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. Yeah, I’m struggling with a couple of the comments that 4
I’ve heard and I just want to maybe talk it through. I heard a couple of comments about that 5
this plan would be bad for Eichlers and I wanted to hear a little bit more about that. And I’ll give 6
you my context first and then if you wanted to share a little bit more of your thoughts, that’d 7
be helpful. So that’s my first thing. The friends I have that live in Eichlers, all have put decals or 8
done something to address bird collisions. And I heard Commissioner Hechtman say that he’s 9
even experienced them but he hasn’t had to – or felt the need to accommodate that with 10
decals. So what was the concern about this with regards to existing Eichlers? 11
12
Chair Chang: So yeah – so I was the one who made that comment about the 24, the big 13
windows. So if we allow decals for residences, I think that might make – that makes sense. I’m 14
not sure decals make sense for big commercial buildings but my concern was that right now 15
we’re saying anything with 24 feet is a problem and that they can’t use decals, if I’m 16
understanding the code correctly. There’s a lot of houses with 24 feet – square feet of glazing 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and if you – and there are no materials, it sounds like, that are readily available if we do not 1
allow decals. So that’s where – that’s an example where I thought it was too stringent. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 206:21]. 4
5
Chair Chang: Yeah. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Is there anybody else that wanted to weigh in on that because – 8
thank you very much, Chair. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Just to clarify, I didn’t say that I hadn’t seen fit to put up decals. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: We actually have put these like bird magnets on that glass. What I 15
said was we haven’t experienced a bird fatality. We’ve had collisions… 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 206:48]. 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: …but no KSIs. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Thank you very much for clarifying that. And – yeah. When I 6
was – I was in a house that was 3 stories tall and the birds was always hitting the top window. 7
We couldn’t put decals. It was like very frustrating, so I can sympathize with all of these 8
scenarios we’re talking about. I just wanted to make sure I understood how it affected the 9
ordinance. My second question was just – maybe it’s more of a comment in response to 10
something Commissioner Lu said. And I’m not trying to single you out because it’s a comment 11
I’ve heard from many people. But I am concerned about being dismissive of the need to protect 12
the birds if we’re going to be building up closer to the wetlands and it’s extremely important. 13
It's so critical a part of the ecosystem we live in. I think it would be best as you suggested to 14
maybe look for an alternate way of making sure we’re protecting those flight paths because we 15
– if we are going to build there, we have a responsibility to protect the bird flight paths. And I 16
recognize it’s not what you – you weren’t saying don’t protect them but you were – you 17
mentioned like how flexible can we be on those kind of buildings’ requirements, and for me, I’d 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
rather be more restrictive and protective because I think if we are going to build in those 1
spaces, we need to be responsible. So that’s my two cents’ worth. Thank you. 2
3
Chair Chang: Is this – Commissioner Hechtman, is this a sec-, another light? No. Ghost light. 4
Okay. So that’s the first round of comments. I’m not seeing additional lights. I think the general 5
consensus – the general consensus was that there were a lot of areas that could use some more 6
investigation. So I’m stalling for time to see if anybody has additional comments to make but 7
I’m – if not, then I’m guessing that somebody wants to make a motion to continue this and do 8
some more work on some key areas that we have highlighted. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I think we need to do more outreach both on the builder’s side, the 11
contractor’s side, and also talk to Audubon and Sierra Club and other stakeholders. I think 12
we’re – we have good progress. I just think it’s not ready for primetime yet. So should we make 13
a motion? 14
15
Chair Chang: Yeah. Does somebody want to make a motion? 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. How simple do we want to get? Just… 1
2
Commissioner Akin: Sure, how about I move that we continue this item to a date uncertain for 3
staff to consider the feedback that’s already been provided. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Sounds good to me. Second. 6
7
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 8
9
Commissioner Lu: Is the feedback clear to staff? 10
11
Kelly Cha: I just wanted to kind of go through with some of the big items that were discussed. 12
So applicability-wise, is it okay for staff to just consider that the size regulations still or would 13
the Commission – would like to see some additional information for modification? 14
15
Chair Chang: Wouldn’t you say the size… 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: So the 24 square feet applicability. 2
3
Chair Chang: No. So I heard loud and clear from the Commission that on applicability, there’s a 4
bird-safe area issue. 5
6
Kelly Cha: So the map? 7
8
Chair Chang: The map is a big issue. I didn’t – I heard every single Commissioner, I believe, 9
mentioned concerns about the map and it being potentially too complex for people to 10
understand. There’s another area of applicability, which is sort of residential… 11
12
Kelly Cha: Right. 13
14
Chair Chang: …versus larger buildings. And I think there’s another area of applicability, which is 15
is that 24 square feet the right thing to use, and if so though, you need to overlay that against 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
bird-safe area and residential versus commercial/mixed use. So there’s many aspects of 1
applicability. 2
3
Coleman Frick: So just as kind to answer Commissioner Lu’s question as – sorry. I’ll just try not 4
to be too loud. 5
6
Chair Chang: No. You’re never too loud. Please. 7
8
Coleman Frick: So to answer sort of Commissioner Lu’s question, I think it would be helpful to 9
get further direction on sort of whether the Commission is comfortable with a bird-sensitive 10
area like is that something that you’re saying look into the details more for the areas outside of 11
the Baylands and Foothill, so within sort of the flats. Is that something that you’re generally 12
comfortable with or – because I’ve heard sort of a variety of comments about whether, “Oh, 13
there might be some specific areas that need to be tweaked, maybe the buffer should be 14
different in different contexts.” But it could assist us with bringing something back and sort of 15
continuing those discussions with the advocates as well as developers to understand if there’s 16
sort of a general consensus on like whether to kind of keep going in that direction of having a 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
bird-sensitive area or really treat it based on the development context outside of the Baylands 1
and Foothills? 2
3
Chair Chang: Commis-, Vice-Chair Reckdahl. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. So that’s one of the reasons I said we should talk with Sierra Club 6
and Audubon. I don’t think we have the capability of telling you. But my lay opinion is that if 7
you had a city with not a good canopy and you have some creeks going through it, I think the 8
birds would be drawn to those creeks. In Palo Alto, we have a really good canopy and I don’t 9
think the creeks are really that much of a draw. And so when I look at that map and see how we 10
isolate these little creek areas but then ignore the other areas with really good canopy, it just 11
doesn’t seem to make sense to me. But that’s something that I want the experts to chime in on. 12
13
Chair Chang: I agree with what Commissioner Reckdahl said. I just – I’m worried about sort of 14
the usability of that map and the practical [inaudible 213:31]. How easy is it going to be to – for 15
people to know if they’re in the bird-safe area or not? And I want something that’s a little easier 16
to understand but if that is the right area according to the experts, then okay. Then I would love 17
to know that. I am concerned though given our canopy and the point that Ms. Cha made about 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
how – so San Francisco looks very different from Palo Alto. And so what is right for San 1
Francisco, with respect to birds, may not be right to Palo Alto. The same thing for the green 2
building code. And so that’s my – on the other hand, I do think that there was kind of 3
unanimous agreement about the west of Foothill and east of 101 part. My own two cents with 4
respect to a bird-safe area there is that 101 might not be the perfect dividing line given all the 5
higher – like given our zoning and the heights that are allowed and given bird flight paths. We 6
might actually need to go to – I don’t know – [inaudible 214:34]. I don’t know what the right 7
thing is. So – or maybe it’s addressed by height. I don’t know. I don’t know what the right 8
answer is and I don’t want to guess. 9
10
Kelly Cha: Just one clarification. So the map itself, the bird-sensitive area, it’s clear that the 11
Council likes to include the west of Foothill and east of 101 depending on that [inaudible 12
214:59] for the Baylands. For the flatland, there’s some questions and there’s some ideas with 13
reducing the buffer to 60 feet. We can definitely bring that map back for the Commission to 14
consider. And there was also – staff suggested that maybe there can be further discussion on 15
whether there should be some – any bird-sensitive area at all on the flatland. So that’s another 16
thing to consider as well. In terms of the canopy discussion during the Council comment − the 17
canopy discussion, was that for the buffer or for the height of the building where the bird 18
treated… 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I think it was both. 2
3
Kelly Cha: Okay. 4
5
Chair Chang: So I think there was a comment about investigating the proper height given our 6
canopy-rich city and then also sort of the validity of using that 300 feet or 60 feet or whatever 7
you do on 1 acre area, that really complex description. Given that we have trees everywhere in 8
Palo Alto − so maybe it makes sense to just not have anything at all. I mean I – or I don’t know 9
what the answer is. So… 10
11
Coleman Frick: Understood. 12
13
Chair Chang: Yes. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Coleman Frick: I think that’s clear enough direction on that. That basically the bird-sensitive 1
area, that criteria that applies to the buffer is from the parks and creeks outside of those two 2
larger consensus sensitive areas. That’s something that I think we can look into in more detail. 3
That being said, I think that there are sort of like limited mechanisms to do like more nuanced 4
maps than – that kind of reflect some of the different types of discussion. So we’ll do our best 5
to kind of bring back something based on the discussion and the direction. 6
7
Chair Chang: Okay. And please talk to the stakeholders like… 8
9
Coleman Frick: [Inaudible 216:57]. 10
11
Chair Chang: …the experts. 12
13
Coleman Frick: Yeah. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Were there other – I think the – where we left off was wanting to hear what staff 1
heard from us like kind of the summary that you did for the last item. That was helpful, I think, 2
for the Commissioners to feel like they could vote on continuing. 3
4
Coleman Frick: Yeah. One – only one last thing that I have that I just want to confirm. I’m 5
hearing consensus essentially on considering temporary decals or something for windows and 6
certain circumstances, so that’s kind of my understanding but just want to make sure that’s an 7
accurate understanding of kind of… 8
9
Kelly Cha: And to supplement Mr. Frick’s comment that we should consider that particular 10
methodology for basically for housing and housing portion of the mixed use, not for the non-11
residential. 12
13
Chair Chang: All nodding up here. Okay. 14
15
Coleman Frick: [Inaudible 217:57] any other items? 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Other comments from Commissioners? Because we have a motion on the table 1
and so we need to vote on that if there are no additional comments. Okay. Ms. Dao, could you 2
please take the vote? 3
4
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 11
12
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 6
7
Chair Chang: Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 10
11
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Wonderful. 1
2
Kelly Cha: Thank you. 3
4
Chair Chang: Thank you, staff. Okay. So now we’re on to approval of minutes. So we have four 5
sets of minutes and the first one that we need to approve is the draft verbatim minutes of 6
February 28, 2024. 7
APPROVAL OF MINUTES 8
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 9
10
3. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim Minutes of 11
February 28, 2024 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Move approval as revised. 14
15
Commissioner Akin: Second. 16
17
Chair Chang: Any discussion? Ms. Dao. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 20
21
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 3
4
Chair Chang: I’m wondering if we might be able to speed this process up and approve all the 5
remaining sets of minutes. So maybe if whoever makes the motion could do that. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: I have to abstain on 5 and I want to comment on 6. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. So go ahead and… 10
11
4. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim & Summary 12
Minutes of March 13, 2024 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: So let me move Item 4 approval of the draft verbatim and summary 15
minutes of March 13 as revised. 16
17
Commissioner Akin: Second. 18
19
Chair Chang: Ms. Dao, could you take the vote? 20
21
Veronica Dao: Did you want to do a voice vote instead? 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Yeah, let’s do a voice vote. All in favor? 2
3
Albert Yang: I’m sorry. Actually… 4
5
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. 6
7
Albert Yang: …we do have to do a roll call when there’s teleconferencing involved. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Sorry everybody. 12
13
Chair Chang: No. Thank you for not infecting us. All right. Go ahead, Ms. Dao. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 16
17
Chair Chang: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: All right. That brings us to the draft verbatim and summary minutes for March 27, 2
2024. Anybody want to make a motion or comment or otherwise on it? 3
4
5
5. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim & Summary 6
Minutes of March 27, 2024 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I move approval of the minutes of March 27. 9
10
Chair Chang: Has anybody revised them? I don’t… 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: No. No revision. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Could I have a second? 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Second. 17
18
Chair Chang: Comments. All right. Please, Ms. Dao. 19
20
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 21
22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 3
4
Chair Chang: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Abstain. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 5-0-1. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. And then we have the draft verbatim and summary minutes of April 10, 5
2024. 6
7
6. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Verbatim & Summary 8
Minutes of April 10, 2024 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: So as my fellow Commissioners know I’m pretty – I don’t know if it’s 11
obsessive or compulsive about reviewing our minutes and revising them and typically that takes 12
me 15 to 30 minutes. And maybe I make 5 to 10 changes. My experience with the April 10 13
verbatim meeting minutes was quite different. I don’t know if any of my fellow Commissioners 14
looked at the revised version but there are literally hundreds of revisions. And it took me at 15
least 1½ hours to do it. And the reason is that the transcriber of those minutes included every 16
um, oh, or where I stuttered, repeated two words at the beginning of a sentence – included 17
those. Now I’ve been reading these minutes for more than 4 years now and maybe that’s how I 18
talk and maybe every transcriber we’ve ever had before that has just been kind. But I don’t 19
know what was going on with this transcriber whether they were just performing what they felt 20
was their obligation to do a true verbatim transcription or if they get paid by the word and 21
every um is another nickel. But I found it highly aggravating. And I have to say while I was by far 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the worst offender, none of my fellow Commissioners nor staff were immune from this 1
treatment. And the purpose of our minutes is to create a usable record of our dialogue so that 2
the Council can benefit from our discussion and sometimes in litigation, there can be some 3
clarity about what happened here. But the way these minutes were done – first of all, it was a 4
waste of the transcriber’s time to do it that way. It was a colossal waste of my time to try to 5
clean up just my comments, and if I hadn’t done it, it would have been a colossal waste of the 6
Council’s time to try to read through it without being so distracted that they’re actually losing 7
the import of the comments. And so I would like staff to deliver a message to this transcriber 8
whoever they are. And that message is stop it. And if they tell you they can’t or they won’t, 9
then please remove them from the rotation because if I get another set like that – and I don’t 10
think I will again, four years – this is the first time I’ve seen it. But I will vote to not approve it 11
and to send it back to clean it up. And that’s just a waste of everyone’s time. So please convey 12
that message. And with that, I will climb down off my pulpit and move approval of the April 10 13
verbatim and summary minutes as heavily revised. 14
15
Chair Chang: So Commissioner Templeton has her hand up. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Yes, I wanted to ask staff if you can clarify if these are human 18
translations or AI translations? Like do we know what would have been at the root cause of this 19
change? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: I don’t know. We recently switched transcription services but I don’t know if they 2
used the same transcriber for all our minutes or if it’s on rotation. But I did tell them to do not 3
include the ums and uhs. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Well I’m just wondering because I know that there’s been a 6
new AI transcription service that has been released in recent months and I wonder if that could 7
be the explanation. In any case, I agree with Commissioner Hechtman that we want to have the 8
higher quality, so even if they are using a tool like that they may need to clean it up themselves. 9
Thank you. 10
11
Chair Chang: So there’s a motion on the table, we need a second. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Second. 14
15
Commissioner Akin: Would you like any further comments? Just that I noticed the same 16
problem in my own comments. And after looking at myself on video for a little while, I decided I 17
was guilty of all of the ums, ohs, and restarts that were there. But I fully agree with your 18
message to be delivered. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: The big thing you’re wasting Council’s time because they don’t want to 1
watch the whole meeting. They want to just scan through it and get the gist of it. And we want 2
that to be as efficient as possible. 3
4
Chair Chang: So what I would say is I don’t feel comfortable actually – having not done the 5
cleanup, I don’t feel comfortable approving these minutes. I would like to send them back and 6
have the service clean up – clean it up. Because if there are this many ums, and I use a lot of 7
them, then it’s not going to be readable or usable. And so I don’t see the point in approving 8
unreadable, unusable minutes [inaudible 227:18]. So we could split it though because there’s 9
the summary minutes, which I could see as being usable. So as currently moved, I would vote 10
no but I wonder if maybe we could split up the motion. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. I think it’s a great idea. So I’ll amend my motion to only move 13
approval of the summary minutes of April 10 as revised. 14
15
Chair Chang: All right. What says the seconder? Oh, yeah. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. Discussion on that motion on – that’s on the table? Commissioner Akin, I 1
think this is a ghost light, right? Okay. So go ahead, Ms. Dao. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 12
13
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 8
9
Chair Chang: All right. On to the last half of the minutes. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: So I’ll – let me try a motion. I move that the Planning Commission not 12
accept or approve the April 10 verbatim minutes and return those to the transcribers to remove 13
the ums, uhs, stutters, contractions – because there were those as well. 14
15
Female: [Inaudible 228:55] words. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. And make it legible and easily readable as virtually all of the 18
other verbatim minutes that have come across the Planning Commission’s desk in recent years 19
have been. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I second that. Do we have any discussion? All right, Ms. Dao. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 8
9
Chair Chang: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 18
19
Veroncia Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 8
9
Chair Chang: All right. Thank you everyone. We’re on to our last item of the evening, which is 10
Commissioner Questions, Comments, Announcements, or future meetings and agendas. Does 11
anybody have anything? 12
13
Commissioner Questions, Comments or Announcements 14
Chair Chang: All right. Seeing no lights, I adjourn this meeting. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Good night. 17
18
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Good night. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Good night. Feel better. 1
2
Adjournment 3
9:41 PM 4
5
/ls 6