HomeMy WebLinkAbout2024-08-14 Planning & Transportation Commission Verbatim Minutes_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Planning & Transportation Commission 1
Verbatim Minutes: August 14, 2024 2
Council Chambers & Virtual 3
5:30 PM 4
5
Call to Order / Roll Call 6
5:31 PM 7
8
ROLL CALL 9
Chair Chang: Hi everyone. I’d like to call to order today’s meeting. It’s a special meeting 10
[inaudible 8:23] it’s starting a little bit early of the Planning and Transportation Commission for 11
this Wednesday, August 14, 2024. Our first order of business is roll call, please, Ms. Dao. 12
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Administrative Associate Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 14
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Chair Chang: Here. 16
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Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 18
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Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Here. 20
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Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 22
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
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Commissioner Akin: Here. 2
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Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 4
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Commissioner Hechtman: Here. 6
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Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 8
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Commissioner Lu: Here. 10
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Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 12
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Commissioner Summa: Here. 14
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Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 16
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Commissioner Templeton: Here. 18
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Veronica Dao: We have a quorum. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Oral Communications 2
The public may speak to any item not on the agenda. Three (3) minutes per speaker.1,2 3
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Chair Chang: Okay, great. So do we have any public comment? I don’t see anybody. [Inaudible 5
9:03]. 6
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Veronica Dao: I have no speaker cards or raised hands for oral communications. 8
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Chair Chang: So our first order of business was public comment for items not elsewhere on the 10
agenda and it doesn’t appear that there are any speakers. So we are going to move on to the 11
next order of business, which is Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions. Ms. French? 12
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Agenda Changes, Additions and Deletions 14
The Chair or Commission majority may modify the agenda order to improve meeting management. 15
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Chief Planning Official Amy French: There are no changes beyond what was published on 17
Monday, which was we moved the retail item first and the other two items second and third – 18
or second, third, and fourth rather. 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Great. And then in case anybody is listening, another small change to the agenda 1
is that the Dark Skies and Bird-Friendly Design items were formerly one item. They have now 2
been split into two items. We will still take them in that order. That is that first we will be 3
discussing Dark Skies and then Bird Safe – Bird Friendly Design. All right. Our next order of 4
business is City Official Reports. Ms. French? 5
City Official Reports 6
1. Directors Report, Meeting Schedule and Assignments 7
Amy French: Thank you. I’ll share my screen. One moment. [Inaudible 10:25] what happened. 8
Okay. I’ll try that again. Okay. So let’s see. Here we are. We have our upcoming meetings, which 9
I will not be here. This is my final meeting. 10
11
Chair Chang: Ms. French… 12
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Amy French: Are you able to hear me? 14
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Chair Chang: We are but I think you might want to change the slideshow mode, so that… 16
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Amy French: Oh. 18
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Chair Chang: …we’re seeing one slide at a time… 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
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Amy French: [Inaudible 11:01]. 2
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Chair Chang: …and it’s a little bit bigger. 4
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Amy French: [Inaudible 11:04]. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. 6
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Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Display settings. 8
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Amy French: I don’t know what happened. 10
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Vice-Chair Reckdahl: If you go to display settings and swap, that should do it. 12
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Amy French: Okay. Yay. That’s never happened. Am I still sharing? 14
15
Chair Chang: Nope. We can’t see it. 16
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Amy French: Oh. All right. Let’s try this again. So sorry. 18
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Chair Chang: There. Perfect. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Amy French: Okay. Yay. So we’re here tonight and next meeting is August 28. We have an Office 2
of Transportation item, so I will be out of the country actually, and Mr. Baird will be the acting 3
PTC liaison to help with that item in that meeting. And then for the following two meetings, we 4
will have a different PTC liaison. We have a new person coming in September to take over the 5
PTC liaison position, so that will happen. And then – so you can see that we are coming back at 6
the end of September – is our plan with the Stream Corridor Ordinance and then September 11 7
is the HIP-targeted meeting as well as 70 Encina, which is a housing project over behind Town & 8
Country. And there’s a number of items for October and November listed here. Oops. Well I 9
don’t know what happened to that. Just a note, at pre-meeting, there was a question about – 10
and I guess I can cover this under the retail item − so only pet salon is noted in our code as an 11
allowed use, so − or described. But that’s why I have it on my screen now. I’m going to stop 12
sharing because it really belongs in the retail item. I think Rafael – is he there in person to give 13
an overview of Transportation and the recent report? 14
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Senior Engineer Rafael Rius: Yes, thank you, Amy. 16
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Amy French: Thanks. 18
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Rafael Rius: Hi. Rafael Rius, senior engineer with the Office of Transportation. Thank you, Chair 1
and Commissioners. I have just a couple… 2
3
Chair Chang: Can you speak more closely to the microphone? It’s hard for us to hear. Thanks. 4
5
Rafael Rius: Sorry. Is it – how’s this? 6
7
Chair Chang: Better. 8
9
Rafael Rius: Rafael Rius, senior engineer with the Office of Transportation with a couple of 10
updates. In addition to what Amy mentioned for the August 28, Nathan will also be bringing an 11
update for the Palo Alto Link program and a significant project update. Caltrans is going to 12
begin their El Camino Real pavement project starting next Monday, August 19, and they’ll be 13
starting at Sand Hill Road progressing south in one-mile segments. The parking along El Camino 14
will be impacted starting Tuesday, September 3. Estimated completion date for the project is 15
fall of 2025 depending on weather and other factors along the way. Those are the only updates 16
I have unless you have any questions. 17
18
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. So first of all, Mr. Rius, it’s really nice to see you in 1
chambers. It’s a treat for us and we hope we hope we see you here more often. I mean it’s 2
great on Zoom but when you come in person, it’s even better. I had mentioned at the last 3
couple of meetings but not till the end of the meeting after you had departed, in looking at the 4
incident reports, which you’ve now been providing us monthly through staff, which we 5
appreciate, one of the things I’ve noticed is that those incident reports − while they identify 6
whether or not somebody was injured in the last column of the incident report, they don’t yet 7
indicate whether the injury was significant or a fatality. And as we move forward with this 8
street – I’m not sure I’m going to have the name right, Street Safe Program, whatever it is – 9
where our goal is to eliminate significant injuries and fatalities, that data is going to be 10
necessary. And so I don’t know if this was passed on to you but what we’d like is if you can talk 11
to the – I imagine it’s the police department that releases these – whether they are able to add 12
that column and if they can’t, I’d like an understanding at a future meeting of how we’re 13
supposed to track our improvement on those issues if we can’t see the data. 14
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Rafael Rius: Sure. 16
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Commissioner Hechtman: As KSI. 18
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Rafael Rius: Right. Okay. I definitely can put that request in for future reports. 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
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Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. 2
3
Chair Chang: Thank you. Other questions? Okay then. 4
5
Amy French: I have – sorry. One more that I wanted to share a screen on my presentation that I 6
skipped over. Okay. It was this one. This is just showing the Council dates that are targeted for 7
the items the PTC has reviewed. So unless these have changed recently, this is what I have on 8
the crystal ball for Council that the PTC member for September would be on deck for. And then 9
John can tell you more about the Council Retail Committee. I believe he’s in chambers in that 10
process. So − okay. 11
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Action Items 13
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 14
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2. Recommendation to the City Council Retail Committee to Prioritize Certain 16
Municipal Code Amendments Related to Retail and Retail Like Land Uses, Retail 17
Preservation Ordinance, Changes to Office Limits, Parking Regulations and Related 18
Development Standards and Application Processes 19
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Chair Chang: Okay, great. That’s a great segway to our first item tonight, which is – sorry. 21
[Inaudible 17:24] I pull up the official – so our first item tonight is an action item 22
Recommendation to the City Council Retail Committee to Prioritize Certain Municipal Code 23
Amendments Related to Retail and Retail Like Land Uses, Retail Preservation Ordinance, 24
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Changes to Office Limits, Parking Regulations and Related Development Standards and 1
Application Processes. Could we have the staff report? 2
3
Director Jonathan Lait: Thank you, Chair. And good evening Commissioners. Jonathan Lait, 4
Director for Planning and Development Services. So we have our consultant [inaudible 17:58] 5
on line to give a presentation over the recommendation but I wanted to provide a little – just 6
context. I know the Commission has talked about this issue already and is quite aware of the 7
topic. Just for the purposes of tonight and maybe more to help me plug into the conversation 8
that you’ve already had, just to remind ourselves that in August 2023, the City Council 9
approved or endorsed a retail resiliency or recovery strategy, comprehensive economic 10
development strategy for the City. And that included a number of recommendations, including 11
three principles. And it’s Principle 3 – and I’m reading from my notes − that was an interest in 12
and direction to adopt policies that reflect changing market conditions by easing the regulatory 13
burden for businesses, removing outdated restrictions that create hurdles to tenancy and focus 14
retail and retail-like uses in places where they are market supported. And so it was in that sort 15
of vein that work − that the department was already addressing to improve our retail resiliency 16
sort of came together and then we had the recommendations from our consultant, Michael 17
Baker International. Now the Commission has previously discussed these recommendations 18
and made a recommend – and was – formed an ad hoc and that was helpful to get a little bit 19
more granular on some of the components that we were interested in advancing and then 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
there was a recommendation that was made by this body – or I believe to – that was going to 1
be forwarded on to the City Council. After that moment though, there was a City Council Retail 2
Ad Hoc Committee Meeting that took place and it was very informative for staff to hear that 3
but it was after the Planning Commission had taken it – the Planning and Transportation 4
Commission had taken its action. And the message really from that Council Ad Hoc was we 5
need to identify immediate near-term, mid-term, and long-term strategies. We need to be 6
really specific on what it is that we’re going to do to implement our economic development 7
strategy. And when I was listening to that Ad Hoc Meeting and reviewing the Commissions’ 8
work and our consultant’s recommendations, I felt like we weren’t quite going as far as we 9
needed to to achieve what the Ad Hoc was articulating as its desire and interest to advance the 10
economic goals and strategies. So I had asked our consultant to take the recommendations that 11
you have already seen and to prioritize them into short-term − near-term, mid-term and long-12
term strategies and to be really specific on what changes we need to make to our regulatory 13
framework and policies and procedures to address these – this guiding principle in the 14
Streetsense Report. And the consultant went back, added a little bit more specificity and 15
ranked these – I think it’s 14 now recommendations. And this is now what’s being presented to 16
the PTC. Our goal tonight is, to the extent that we’re able, is to hear from the Commission 17
about which of these 14 items you believe we ought to advance and which ones maybe, as a 18
body, you don’t support moving forward. I fully understand that there’s some policy 19
recommendations here that diverge with our current policy understanding and interests or at 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
least as currently expressed in our policies and maybe they’re right for reassessment and 1
reevaluation or maybe not. And that’s the sort of direction that we’re looking for from the 2
Commission. We do not need to get to a level of how are we actually going to implement this or 3
solving the code language. That will come next. We just want to get the concept identified and 4
then with the PTC’s recommendation we would go to the Retail Ad Hoc Committee in 5
September and get their reaction to the consultant’s recommendation, the PTC’s 6
recommendation. We’ll present the consultant’s work and share the PTC’s recommendation 7
and then get the Ad Hoc’s recommendation for the City Council. And that – I don’t know at this 8
moment if that’s an action item or a Consent Callendar item or how that takes place. But 9
there’s discussion one way or another or some feedback that we would expect from the City 10
Council after the Retail Ad Hoc Committee discussion in September. Okay. So that’s just sort of 11
the backdrop. Can I answer any questions maybe about sort of the process or why this is back 12
before you again before I ask our consultant to walk through the recommendations? 13
14
Chair Chang: Just a clarification for me. So it’s not so much the consultant has made new 15
recommendations but they’ve organized it – like they’ve organized the content of work that 16
we’ve already seen − the body of work that we’ve already seen into these categories and kind 17
of – I do remember that the last time the consultant came, we were confused about what’s 18
recommendation because the number of recommendations kind of didn’t match and… 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: Right. 1
2
Chair Chang: So it was just sort of to clean that up a little bit and organize it better. 3
4
Jonathan Lait: Yes. And I think perhaps in some of the recommendations, there may be some 5
new specificity added to articulate clearly what is meant by this general statement. And so we 6
wanted to drill down a little bit more to give you some more context as to what was being 7
proposed or contemplated. 8
9
Chair Chang: Understood. 10
11
Jonathan Lait: Okay. 12
13
Chair Chang: Thanks. Other quick questions before we hear the presentation? Oh. 14
Commissioner Akin. 15
16
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, just a clarification. Essentially, are you saying we should run through 17
the recommendations and get a sense of whether the Commission has consensus, yea or nay or 18
needs further work on each one? 19
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_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. So fair question and I’m sorry I wasn’t a part of a pre-sort of strategy 1
meeting on this. I recognize that it could be – this could be a very long process or it could be a 2
brief process depending on how we approach it. And so I think my – I guess what I’m interested 3
in is understanding a couple things. One is do you agree about near-term, mid-term, long-term? 4
I don’t think there will be too much disagreement about that. And do you agree as to the 5
specific recommendation that this is one that we ought to advance or not. And I think I would – 6
so in that context, I think you could go either one of two ways and you may want to deliberate 7
on this for a moment. You could go one by one and get through the 14 and you can decide how 8
long or how short you want to spend on each of those by quick consensus building or you can 9
start with the − does anybody want to pull one for discussion that differs from what the staff 10
recommendation or at least what I want to distinguish. If you don’t support one of the 11
consultant recommendations on the 14, do you want to pull one of those off and have that 12
discussion? So I’ll – I think those are at least two options that you can consider. 13
14
Chair Chang: Yeah. Okay. Let’s go ahead. We did discuss in pre-meeting that we’re going to try 15
and move quickly… 16
17
Jonathan Lait: Right. 18
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: …because there’s not necessarily a ton of new in-depth content. And so let’s hear 1
what the – let’s hear the consultant presentation and then we can discuss our process after 2
that. 3
4
Jonathan Lait: Thank you, Chair. Dan Wery, would you mind making your presentation? 5
6
Consultant Dan Wery: Yeah. Great. Let’s see if we can get this up first try. So share – should be 7
the – sharing the screen hopefully. 8
9
Jonathan Lait: Yes, we see that. 10
11
Dan Wery: Yay. Okay. Great. Well good evening. It’s been a couple months. Nice to see you 12
guys again. And as Jonathan and Amy kind of gave you the preamble and – there isn’t a lot new 13
here. Again, it’s kind of repackaged, reformatted. We put our recommendations kind of in a 14
order of expediency and priority. We did provide a little bit more clarity and detail wherever we 15
could and the slides that we’ll show you, we also provided some kind of rationale notes to kind 16
of [remind 26:45] why we are doing this or why are we recommending this. So just wanted to 17
kind of jump right into it. I don’t think we need a lot of exposition but I just want to get – there 18
we go. I’ll just kind of jump right in. So again, we had 14 or 15 recommendations. We tried to 19
kind of float the ones that we know were consistent with the prior PTC and Ad Hoc 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
recommendations in our discussions back in March and April and May. So without further ado, 1
this is – we got in these slides kind of a summary of the recommendations. I can go over those 2
just so we kind of hit the headlines and then we’ve got slides for each one that includes that 3
rationale if you want to get into’m further. So I think, as Jonathan mentioned, it might be good 4
if we agree on them, we can kind of just move those off. If there’s things we really want to pull, 5
make a note of which one it is and we can go to those and discuss those in more detail. And 6
hopefully, we can get through this quickly because I know you got more agenda items after this. 7
So Number 1 was: Amend the Parking Regulations. And the purpose of this is really to exempt 8
change of use of existing floor area from the minimum parking requirements. We kind of came 9
to this as part of our discussions on the EB 2097 impacts on within a ½ mile of the rail, where 10
again, there’s no enforcement of minimum parking requirements any longer and then also kind 11
of with the – I’m going to say compensation for the recommendation to remove the RPO from 12
the [inaudible 28:27] downtown and Cal. Ave. areas. So this was a way to encourage and 13
facilitate retail activity in the [inaudible 28:33] downtown and Cal. Ave. areas. And what we do 14
is basically allow if you have existing floor area, you can change the use without triggering 15
additional parking requirements. So basically, your parking needs are deemed [met 28:48] and 16
you can change from let’s say an office that don’t happen to be on the ground floor to a more 17
intensive use, which would normally trigger more parking and a whole scramble to find 18
additional parking spaces. That would no longer be required. So this is a tool that’s been used 19
by many communities. It’s becoming more and more popular, and it seems to be working quite 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
well. So I’ll kind of go through’m. If you have any questions, we can come back to’m. But maybe 1
we can go through the 14 or 15 here. The other one I think there was consensus on was Relax 2
the Retail – Formula Retail Restrictions. There are basically two ideas there and that was to limit 3
from all formula uses or all uses to just restaurant uses. And then ease the threshold standard 4
to 10 – any franchise or formula retail that has 10 or more within the United States to 50 or 5
more. So that opens up the market a little bit. It’s still very restrictive if you think of in the 6
entire United States, we’re only talking about 50 businesses, so an average of 1 per state. But I 7
think there was consensus and support for that or at least the majority. Number 3 was: Repeal 8
the Retail Preservation Ordinance. And this is a little bit of refinement. So as we went back and 9
talked about this after the May 8th meeting − I know there wasn’t a lot of support for that. 10
There was some concern about that. Generally, where we left off, as I recall, the idea was we’ve 11
got too much retail and we’ve got too much vacant retail that’s protected and restricted by the 12
RPO. It can’t go anywhere. You’re stuck. And you can’t put in alternative uses. And so it was 13
combination – the idea was we need to reduce or repeal the RPO to allow a free market to 14
intervene, and I think the idea was keep the restrictions on ground-floor retail on Cal. Ave. and 15
downtown and allow kind of free market to adjust and re-balance in the other areas of town. 16
When we went back and looked at it in more detail, it became clear that we can just go ahead 17
and repeal RPO as opposed to just limit it to Cal. Ave. and University Avenue because Cal. Ave. 18
and University Avenue have their own combining districts to GF, the ground floor, and the retail 19
combining districts. And that’s really − as I understand it, that was really the impotence behind 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the RPO. It was really extending those restrictions to the rest of town and the [inaudible 31:39] 1
of 2015. The idea would be basically go back at 2015, keep your ground floor and your retail- 2
combining districts on University and Cal. Ave. and allow the market to kind of freely adjust in 3
the [inaudible 31:52] rest of town. Number 4 was: Amend the Parking Regulations to extend the 4
new AB 2097 exemptions to the 16 lots at the north end of the CD-C zone in the downtown 5
area. The problem is that ½-mile corridor grabs the entire commercial district except for the 6
very north end and it just seemed that that was a real inequity there to potentially require 7
those property owners to comply with additional parking requirements where nobody else 8
would have to and their immediate neighbors in the exact same zoning and conditions. Number 9
5 was create a comparable zoning use table. Also known as the what use where. That was [circa 10
32:47] 2005 or 2007, I think. And we had kind of a working version of that that we created for 11
ourselves and I know Amy and other staff have been working to actually do that already. So 12
again, that’s a great use, just so it was very clear what’s allowed where. And that helps 13
everybody. So these are all things that I think can be done very quickly, so we put them in the 14
near-term or within the next 6 months. Some of the these could be done very quickly. They’re 15
not – they’re discrete items. They are not complicated as long as you can agree on that they 16
should occur. So a few more near-term ones are revise the combining districts to allow practical 17
waivers and adjustment via the alternative viable active use. There’s provisions in the code now 18
that have that as an alternative, and this is an alternative to the kind of extreme standard for 19
getting relief and that’s a constant – defining of an unconstitutional taking, which is taking all 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
economic rights and that’s almost impossible. And so it’s an almost impossible standard. We 1
don’t think it's really an appropriate standard. So the idea is [inaudible 34:12] that one. Keep 2
the one that allows alternative viable active uses. It’s got some reasonable standards in there, 3
although the standards themselves − the criteria are still very subjective, so it’s – those 4
subjective terms need to be worked on as well. But the concept is get rid of the 5
unconstitutional taking and go with an alternative viable active use. Number 7 is allow non-6
retail uses on the ground floor with limitations. And the first one that we talked about – and I 7
think there was support for this. Was amend the retail or the retail-like definition based on the 8
desired outcome. So right now, it’s all of this use and that use and only certain sizes and 9
combinations and it’s use-specific in the definitions. And the idea is that uses and trends 10
change. There’s constantly new innovation and new ideas and we want to allow that but we 11
want to allow it within the same sense and the same outcome or the same desired, which is 12
really active uses on the ground floor and along the frontage of particularly Cal. Ave. and 13
University Avenue. So we had proposed a definition before. It’s been used in the City of San 14
Diego. It seems to work, and we think we could easily amend that definition to include those 15
provisions. Another short-term one is to allow non-retail uses on ground floor, again with 16
limitations, but this would include increasing the size limitations of certain uses to match 17
industry standards. And we talked about increasing the commercial recreation and I think some 18
of the other uses from – or [inaudible 36:00] health/fitness centers from 1,800 square feet to 19
3,000 square feet. That 3,000 square feet was pointed out in the − a retail revitalization study 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
as being the industry standard. And there’s really kind of no rhyme or reason conveyed as what 1
the magic of 1,800 square feet was, and we don’t see any real harm in going to 3,000. It’s still a 2
relatively small use. So those were near-term items. We’ve got some mid-term items starting 3
with Number 9, and the idea was to repeal or amend the office conversion and construction 4
limitations. Office uses are not a realistic or significant threat of forcing out retail. That’s how 5
they were − I think they were originally created. There was concern about being overwhelmed 6
by kind of – and it’s kind of a back office or Silicon Valley type-office spaces kind of consuming 7
up everything. That doesn’t seem to be a threat since there’s almost 500,000 square feet of 8
vacant office space now. Additionally, the office uses are great uses for supporting your retail 9
uses. And we are obviously very aware of that now with the hybrid work schedules post-COVID 10
that we don’t have as many office workers and we don’t have as many customers for the near-11
by retail uses, particularly on University and Cal. Ave. And another way to look at this one – I 12
think we talked about this back in March and April and May – is this was kind of one of those 13
traps that once you get into the RPO and you’ve got retail, it’s hard to go back. You’re stuck. I 14
mean the RPO says you cannot. And the ground floor and retail, you can do certain uses. 15
They’re subject to a Conditional Use Permit but there’s also limitations on what are you going 16
to go to. It might be office use and then office use or similar type use might be appropriate but 17
there’s these other limitations that might limit or prevent you from actually going there. So you 18
might be restricted via the RPO. You might also be restricted by the Office Conversion and 19
Construction limitations. Similarly, number 10 is office-related. This is particularly in the CN and 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
CS districts. There’s provision there that limits office uses to 5,000 square foot per lot. And one 1
of the key problems there is it’s just not proportionate and, therefore, it’s – creates a lot of 2
inequities. You could have a 5,000 square foot lot, it could have 5,000 square feet of office. 3
Great. You could have a 5-acre lot and that 5-acre lot would be limited to the same 5,000 4
square foot of office and that just doesn’t seem useful or helpful. And particularly again in the 5
consideration of the larger circumstances. So number 11 is amend parking regulations by 6
reducing the minimum parking requirements and basing the standards on the actual demand. 7
Parking is down; it keeps going down. It’s been going down for literally decades [inaudible 8
39:12] average number of parking spaces per square foot, yet most zoning ordinances are kind 9
of locked in with standards that maybe go back to the 60s and 70s. And so it’s time for a reset. 10
Relook at those, reset those. There’s not a lot of good ways to do that. Both ULI and ITE, Urban 11
Land Institute and Institute of Transportation Engineers publish recommended standards. 12
They’re adjusted for the regions by uses, by type of area. Those are really good starting point. 13
And then again, you can do your own studies and analyses. That’s the best way to go. Again, 14
good thing to do. General recommendation doesn’t take too long and can make big differences 15
because parking is a major restriction on most new uses. Number 12: Amend Parking 16
Regulations. And this is what I mentioned earlier. To implement the AB 2097 exemption – a 17
minimum parking requirements − exemption of minimum parking requirements within a ½ 18
mile. This is really just codification. We already talked about it before and I think we [inaudible 19
40:23] extending it to those final 16 uses at the north end of the CD-C zone. So this is just a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
straight-up codification to make sure it’s clear in your code to staff and applicants and the 1
public what the provisions are. The last few here, mid to long-term, amend standards for retail 2
− standards for specified retail uses by replacing requirements for Conditional Use Permits with 3
objectives, standards, and performance criteria. So there’s increased certainty, predictability, 4
and shorter approval processes, and timelines. So again, basically take out the Conditional Use 5
Permit. It doesn’t seem necessary. I think there was concurrence and agreement on a lot of 6
uses that, “Hey, we’re better off letting these things happen than having the unpredictability 7
and forcing them to this other process,” which in many cases just discourages people from even 8
making an application all together. And the last one is amend the parking regulations to include 9
the ordinance to unbundle parking from residential development, again with – in accordance 10
with AB 1317 passed last October. And that again is a straight-up codification of State law. So 11
uses going forward, I believe, starting this January – this coming January will be a requirement 12
that any residential development will have to offer parking separately. So if you want to rent an 13
apartment or buy a unit, you can buy that or rent that unit − or rent − buy or rent that unit by 14
itself without parking. So that’s a new requirement. So again, that’s just straight-up 15
codification. And the last one that used to be our first one, [I think 42:16] threw everybody off, 16
is the longer-term one, the bigger effort, which is the Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance 17
Update. It’s time. It needs a lot of work, and we talked about certain things you could do in the 18
short-term to get started, maybe take it down in smaller bites, make some improvements and 19
some adjustments. So – because it can be a long effort. So there’s different ways. You could 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
take it chapter by chapter and the one thing that we talked about is kind of the what uses 1
where-approach. Just even doing those comparative use tables and development standard 2
tables for that matter really help you understand the zoning in a deeper level and understand 3
what the differences are and where. And also often points out – you’re see differences that you 4
kind of don’t know why they’re there. Why is it allowed this area and not that area? And if you 5
don’t understand it, then that might be a good indication that it might be appropriate for 6
review and possible change in update. So happy to go back to any of these. I’ll just point out 7
that we do kind of have slides of each one that includes some additional rationale. I think these 8
were distributed to you earlier, so hopefully you’ve seen these, and we’re happy to discuss any 9
or all of these. 10
11
Chair Chang: All right. Thank you, Mr. Wery. What I thought we would start with is clarifying 12
questions and then we’ll see if there’s any public comment and then we’ll discuss process, if 13
that’s okay with the rest of the Commission. So clarifying questions for staff or Mr. Wery? 14
Commissioner Hechtman. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. Mr. Wery – or actually maybe this is better addressed to 17
staff. Consultant recommendation for amend parking regulations. There’s a note at the end of 18
the staff report discussion of that that says that Council is expected to have a discussion on AB 19
2097 two days ago, on Monday of this week, which may also inform this discussion and I’m 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
wondering if Council did discuss 2097 and there’s some additional information we should 1
consider when we think about Number 4. 2
3
Jonathan Lait: Great. Thank you for the question. No, they’re – unfortunately the agenda was 4
too many items and discussion was pretty rich on Monday, so they didn’t have a chance to get 5
to the topic. So I think this probably comes back to them in September or October for their 6
discussion. 7
8
Chair Chang: Okay. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. 11
12
Chair Chang: I’ve got a question. So it’s a question regarding the 14th recommendation, which 13
talks about amending parking regulations as it results − as it relates to residential properties. So 14
I’m wondering why that’s even in here since this is supposed to be about retail. It − is there 15
something that I am missing that is directly related to retail with respect to this 16
recommendation? 17
18
Dan Wery: No, not really. I think that came up because we − toward the tail end of the study 19
and the work, we were asked to look at the AB − the impacts and implications of AB 2097, so 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that’s kind of where that came up and it just kind of was a natural extension. The extent of the 1
relevance probably is that that is residential-friendly. It will hopefully allow more uses, more 2
flexibility, and that in turn may lead to some more residential infill and possibly redevelopment 3
within the areas and, therefore, maybe provide some additional customers and support for the 4
retail activity. So it’s − yeah. If you want to ignore that one, that’s fine. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. It seems peripheral and not directly related to what has been done 7
agendized. 8
9
Jonathan Lait: I might note that for mixed-use developments, it could have some practical use if 10
a mixed-use project were proposed. 11
12
Chair Chang: Okay. All right. So – oh. Sorry about that. Commissioner Reckdahl. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. In the staff report at the very end, we have these special use 15
examples, and when I look at them, they all currently seem acceptable for − the Palo Alto 16
Zoning would allow them. Am I missing something? 17
18
Amy French: Yes. I have a slide to show you, which is − hold on. Oh, stop another screen 19
sharing. I don’t want to do that I suppose. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Male: [Inaudible 47:08]. 2
3
Amy French: I’ll just say what it is. It’s − keep it on there. 4
5
Male: Oh, sorry. 6
7
Amy French: That’s all right. No, that’s fine. Okay, I’ll share. So we had in the May 8th 8
presentation − we had this, right? We had the May 8th package that you had – had all of the – a 9
table that showed where sort of a what use where, if you will. And it’s clear that in some places, 10
a CUP is required and other places, it’s permitted, and other places, it’s not noted, so it’s not 11
allowed. So what we did for tonight with these fun uses, we’re calling them, is the pet salon is 12
the only that’s kind of addressed in our code in the use classifications, definitions, and such. The 13
others ones are not. So our consultant prepared this table to share on these fun uses what 14
they’re – what that − how that lays out. So no, you can’t do a pottery without a CUP. For 15
instance, the pottery, Color Me Mine. I’ll just call out that one. And I see Cari has her hand up. 16
Commissioner Templeton. 17
18
Chair Chang: Yeah, I just wanted to comment. There’s a definition, right? In [inaudible 48:33] 18 19
that covers a retail-like use, which is any use generally open to the public during typical 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
business hours and predominantly engaged in providing services closely related to retail 1
services, including but not limited to, a huge longer list of things. And then in our RPO, it 2
specifically refers to allowing retail-like uses. So although it doesn’t prescriptively identify all of 3
the things that are on the fun list, it doesn’t prohibit those either. So I think – because I just 4
remember that as a part of the retail ad hoc, we specifically asked the question, “What is 5
disallowed by our code?” And had a very hard time coming up with anything except for maybe 6
one or two examples. I think it was a café combined with a – I’m trying to remember now. 7
8
Male: Probably financial services. 9
10
Chair Chang: Maybe café [inaudible 49:32]. 11
12
Amy French: Yeah, the bank coffee shop. I would just throw that out there. I mean that we 13
require CUP for financial services. 14
15
Chair Chang: Yes, that might be one of the examples. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Tutoring also. 18
19
Chair Chang: Oh, maybe tutoring… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Amy French: Yeah. 2
3
Chair Chang: …or something like that. But there were… 4
5
Amy French: Here’s some other ones. Medical retail starts to be – we’ve had – but anyways. 6
There’s – it would be hard to walk in at the counter and have somebody say, “Yeah, here you 7
go, here’s the use and occupancy,” for many of these. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay, that’s helpful. Commissioner Templeton. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Yes, thank you, Chair. I just want to let you know I joined at 6:05 PM, 12
rejoined. That’s all. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you. And Commissioner Templeton has had to leave for just cause reasons. 15
And so I believe we have to confirm that you are by yourself in the room. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: I am in an empty room. 18
19
Chair Chang: Great. Thank you. All right. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. So… 2
3
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. Commissioner Reckdahl, go ahead and follow up. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So the – you can open a bank in a retail, you just need a CUP. And you 6
open a coffee shop in a retail, so you’re just combining two uses that are approved. Is this fun 7
list meant to say we want to implement this bank/coffee shop idea without a CUP? Is that 8
what’s going on? 9
10
Jonathan Lait: So I’ll take a first cut, Amy, and if – feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I actually 11
think it’s more of a challenge when we have two uses that we don’t see as both being 12
permissible in the code at least by right. And so the financial institutions, the bank or something 13
like that, is generally not allowed in the GF or the R-combining district. But if you add the café 14
to it and it creates more sort of vibrancy and reason for people to come in, that is what we’re 15
suggesting might be an okay thing to allow. But right now, our code would create a challenge 16
for the financial institution to locate on the ground floor. Other examples that involve a 17
gathering or where people would come in and either do something along with some other use, 18
it might trip the recreation or a similar type of plan use designation that might be considered a 19
– requiring a Conditional Use Permit. And so I think what we’re trying to – I will acknowledge 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the fun list is a fun term and the first I’ve seen it here presented. But I think the idea is that 1
there is a combination of uses that could work together and where they’re all permitted, that’s 2
fine. But where one of the uses is a conditional use or not, something that is neatly within the 3
retail or retail-like use either by CUP or by definition as a permitted use, that’s where we get a 4
challenge. And this provision is to take a look at that and marry those together, so that we 5
don’t have to have a regulatory process and that we can be clear about saying, “Yes, this is the 6
type of thing that we want to see encouraged.” 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay, so today if you wanted to open let’s say a dentist office and a candy 9
shop together, right? If this is allowed – if you had a location where the dentist office was 10
allowed, you could do that today, right? 11
12
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. You − if you had a place where medical was allowed and you wanted to 13
add a retail component, one could do that. 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. But if it was just that this was a retail location, you could open your 16
candy shop there but you couldn’t do the candy shop and the dentist office side by side or 17
together? 18
19
Jonathan Lait: You… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Amy French: Oh… 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Right? 4
5
Amy French: Dental office is considered medical office. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 8
9
Amy French: Yeah, so that’s a problem. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And so this is proposed… 12
13
Dan Wery: [Inaudible 53:26] to have the dental and the candy but we’ll skip that. 14
15
Male: Good idea. 16
17
Amy French: Yeah. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: But − so what we’re saying here is that we wanted to have that dental 1
office and candy shop be able to go into either location or we’re just saying this is something 2
that needs to be investigated or… 3
4
Jonathan Lait: What we’re saying is we want to allow uses that have a synergy about them and 5
contribute to people walking into the space. I don’t know that I would have drawn the example 6
that you have drawn but should that be something that along those lines we’re trying to – we 7
want to shift the definition to be more about what we’re trying to accomplish, which is more 8
people walking and wanting to go into different stores even if the totality of that space is not 9
geared strictly toward retail. There might be another component that it could be used for 10
something else. And that might make it more attractive for a landlord or a future tenant to 11
carve out spaces that inspire that sort of engagement with the street face. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. 14
15
Chair Chang: I have a follow-up question on that point, which is, I do remember discussing here 16
multiple times already when it – both here as well as in Ad Hoc about our desire to move 17
towards kind of goals based. Our legislation having goals based, right? And we want the foot 18
traffic. If this is a place where people gather and they have foot traffic and it’s open to all – I’m 19
kind of summarizing from what I remember. These were things that we were generally 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
supportive of. My clarifying question is so we see this list of “fun” uses or these really kind of 1
more unique uses and interesting uses that would attract people and then we also have these 2
15 recommendations. I’m trying to draw the line between which of these recommendations we 3
think specifically will enable more of this because I don’t – unless I don’t remember correctly. 4
Which – was there a recommendation of the 15 that specifically talked about having kind of 5
more goals-based definition? Because that was something that the Ad Hoc discussed as well as 6
the PTC. 7
8
Jonathan Lait: Right. I think that would get captured in an amended definition of retail. Defining 9
what retail and retail-like is would be changed to achieve the goals and then it would have a 10
couple of illustrative examples without the intent to be all encompassing. 11
12
Chair Chang: Prescriptive. Right. Understood. Okay. Thank you. That helps. Because then we – I 13
think the confusion for me at least looking at this was, “Wait. Are we saying that we can’t have 14
any of these right now? Because if we don’t implement all of these recommendations, we’re 15
disallowing them right now.” And it’s not quite as cut and dry as that but it would – but 16
implementing at least the change in definition item would make it easier for some of these 17
more unique and new fun uses to be implemented hopefully. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. And can I just add to that because practically speaking when a broker or a 1
tenant comes to the counter and they have a question like this, it’s not easily answered, and we 2
take it in, they talk to a supervisor, if it’s still not clear, we’ll bring it to a bigger team of folks. 3
We may – they may get me involved in the discussion. If I’m scratching my head, I may ask the 4
attorneys for their input. And so weeks could transpire before we can give somebody an 5
answer as to whether or not this fun use is allowed or not. 6
7
Chair Chang: Right. Thank you. I think the clarification for which recommendation it applies to is 8
very valuable because the Retail Protection Ordinance specifically doesn’t disallow that but it’s 9
our retail definition as a whole that is more problematic with respect to that – the issue of not 10
allowing these combined uses. 11
12
Jonathan Lait: The current RPO standards may constrain some of it but not entirely. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. 15
16
Amy French: And again, just to put a fine point on this. These were just sample uses. This – it’s 17
illustrative of the future. We haven’t imagined the next uses that we’ll come across. 18
19
Chair Chang: Understood. Okay. I see… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Dan Wery: And if I may – recommendation Number 7 was – 7.1. If you look at it at the top of 2
the slide. I’m not sure if I’m sharing my screen but that is what we talked about that amending 3
the definition of retail-like, definition 125.1, to include this additional phrase, so you could add 4
that in and that would presumably open up the fun uses. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Summa. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: You – your question sort of answered my questions. So I… 9
10
Chair Chang: Great. 11
12
Commissioner Summa: …don’t think we – I don’t know how fun all of these look and most of 13
them we have allowed at times and some of these – like we always before – we had paint your 14
own ceramic studios, more than one. It’s just probably that they weren’t financially viable in 15
Palo Alto. I don’t know what rule we have that prohibits small handmade items, so they just 16
seem kind of – we allow – we restrict retail-like medical in general but we’ve always allowed 17
eyeglass stores with eyeglass professionals – eye professionals. Build your own Birchbox, that’s 18
just selling – that’s cosmetics. I mean it’s just regular retail. So – and we do allow pet salons. 19
And I had no idea what a bank/coffeeshop was to be honest. But – so that’s kind of covered by 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
– but it kind of – I do think we should have a generalized definition of retail that allows for 1
something that isn’t one of these things specifically. As to how long it takes – well this is more 2
of [inaudible 59:32]. I’ll leave it for there. 3
4
Chair Chang: All right. Let’s – I don’t see other clarifying questions. Please, Commissioners. So 5
we should take public comment and then we can discuss how we want to get through these 15 6
recommendations. Are there any public… 7
8
Veronica Dao: Yes, we have one on line from Winter. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Let’s go ahead with Ms. Dellenbach. 11
12
PUBLIC COMMENT 13
Winter Dellenbach: Public comment. Okay. I have to confess And I’m so sorry. I’m cranky about 14
this. And here are my reasons for it. I want to talk about this fun stuff. I’m busy. Everybody I 15
know is busy. We want to get stuff done. We want to pick up the cleaning, we want to go over 16
to Piazzas and shop for groceries, run over to Mitchell Park, pick up our library books, on and on 17
and on. I don’t need to be entertained. If I want to have fun, I go to the beach, I buy an ice 18
cream cone, I go see my grandkids in town. There are – there is fun and then there is getting on 19
with your life. And I just think this fun thing, even though I kind of get it at the high concept, it’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
just – there’s something about it that’s a little cringy, embarrassing, and maybe off the point. 1
And I’m sorry I sound like the cranky old lady but I − that’s how I feel. So then moving on. So 2
we’ve – there’s been two magnet – I’m calling them magnet areas picked out. University 3
Avenue, Cal. Ave., yeah I get that – our shopping areas. And I love Cal. Ave. I wish it weren’t 4
close. But I get that. But in just designating those, you’ve just thrown the whole rest of us that 5
happen to live in a walkable neighborhood under the bus. So I was told about two months, and 6
please correct me if I’m wrong, that my area – I live in Barron Park, so like think El Camino south 7
of Oregon Expressway, Ventura on one side, Barron Park on the other side. And we have a 8
zillion little shops and those little shops for the most part, they don’t look like the fancy-pantsy 9
places on University Avenue. And guess what? They don’t need to because what they do is they 10
provide good practical services and a couple of the restaurants are central to our community. 11
One of’m is Driftwood Market that’s been there for 20-some years that’s going to be wiped out 12
by the huge development plan in its place and − the Taqueria. And Driftwood Market is a 13
gathering place for blue-collar workers, white-collar workers, for students from Gunn, for the 14
locals. Everybody gathers there. And same with the Taqueria. And it really – it is such a relief, at 15
least I feel it from a lot of the Palo Alto vibes, which is much more chichi and yet there’s 16
delicious food here. And I just hate it that we aren’t – we’re just in − by intention ignored. I 17
heard a couple months ago that along there has the lowest vacancy rate of all of the retail in 18
Palo Alto. Lowest vacancy rate. And yet, we’re being ignored. Of course, Midtown’s been 19
ignored. I don’t know about Edgewood. So we used to prize walkable neighborhoods and we 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
clearly don’t care anymore. The market, as they say, is a dumb beast. And the market is not 1
going to do anything for us here in the area – Ventura, Barron Park area in terms of useful 2
retail. It’s – it just won’t. Not really useful retail. Finally, we need sensible retail protections that 3
include Palo Alto. I spent about three or four years, a lot of my life, working on ground-floor 4
retail protection in my – in Barron Park/Ventura area, working with code enforcement to 5
protect what we have and to work on some more. And so I do know something about this and I 6
attended the whole discussion about retail protection that went on numbers of years ago about 7
ground-floor retail and all that. So I do have some sense of this. So I just want to close by on the 8
one hand thanking you very much for – we need to consider this. I just can’t intuitively handle 9
the thought that we would encourage more office space. So, “Oh, well. We could have more 10
office space by retail.” Yeah, we can have more empty office space by retail rather than office 11
workers using retail services. I want to say that. And I just think that given all that, South Palo 12
Alto and El Camino, San Antonio is going to be kind of sacrificed to overwhelming development. 13
We at least should be able to have sensible, usable, not high-end retail here to continue a 14
walkable neighborhood. Thank you so much for listening to me. 15
16
Chair Chang: Thank you. Are there further public comments? 17
18
Veronica Dao: No, just the one. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. So back to the Commission now for discussion. And so I’m going to 1
throw a proposal out there for how we attack this because we’re trying to not have a meeting 2
that goes to midnight tonight. Since there’s not necessarily new things that we haven’t heard 3
about, I suggest that we treat this sort of the way the Council treats a Consent Callendar. And if 4
we could go down the line and I’ll – my proposal is that I will talk – say recommendation 5
Number 1 and if anybody would like to discuss it further like would not vote yes on it, then raise 6
your hand and then we see where we are after we go through the 15 to see – because I think 7
some of these are non-controversial and we agree. And then some of them, somebody may 8
disagree. So if we could do that, then we can circle back and decide – we’ll see how many we 9
have to discuss. Does that make sense? Any – I’m seeing nods from my colleagues. Okay. So 10
let’s start with Number 1, and Mr. Wery, it would be helpful if you could just flash up like the 11
detail slides as we go through them really quickly. So Number 1 is amend parking regulations to 12
allow/exempt change of use/conversion from parking. 13
14
Male: Not sharing screen yet. 15
16
Dan Wery: Sorry. I thought it was. I was all set and then muted myself. Here we go. 17
18
Chair Chang: Oh, Commissioner Templeton, you have your hand raised and I didn’t see it. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah, I just want to ask. I – are we supposed to vote on this? I 1
thought this was… 2
3
Chair Chang: All we’re doing is we’re going to raise hand for each item. I’m just going to go 4
through the 15 items really quickly. Anything you support, do not raise your hand. Anything 5
that you would like to discuss more or do not support, raise your hand. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. So it’s not really a vote at this point? It’s just… 8
9
Chair Chang: No, it’s not a vote. It’s just a vote for – it’s an indication of whether we can just fly 10
past something quickly. Yeah. 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you. Okay. So item – first item is to – well that’s – okay. So it’s to allow 15
changes of use or exempt changes of use or conversion of existing floor area to retail-like uses 16
from minimum parking requirements. I’m not quite sure. 17
18
Jonathan Lait: Yeah, so this is really just trying to create a similar parking standard for 19
interchangeable uses. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Yes. 2
3
Commissioner Summa: So does this mean that we don’t require additional parking spots when 4
there’s a change of use? 5
6
Jonathan Lait: Right. It would be to facilitate the transition from one land use to another 7
regardless of the – it would treat it as the same parking standard kind of like downtown where 8
everything’s a 1 to 200 parking ratio. We don’t even look – you don’t have the conversation 9
about parking downtown because everybody’s got the same parking standard. 10
11
Commissioner Summa: Right. So it would… 12
13
Jonathan Lait: So we would say for retail and retail-like uses or however it’s defined under the 14
retail definition, those would be interchangeable uses and a restaurant would not require more 15
parking than a pottery store or a shoe store. 16
17
Commissioner Summa: So it would put the whole city like downtown is currently? 18
19
Jonathan Lait: It would say for retail and retail-like uses only. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: And so just to remind my colleagues also. This was one of the items that the Retail 2
Ad Hoc thought was one of the quick hits and supported. Okay. So if you would like to discuss 3
this one further, raise your hand or would like to vote against it, raise your hand. Okay, I’m 4
seeing nothing for that one. All right. The second potential recommendation is to relax the 5
formula retail restrictions. And again, we discussed this at length at our last – several times this 6
has come before us. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Next slide, please. 9
10
Chair Chang: Next slide, please. 11
12
Dan Wery: [Inaudible 69:30]. 13
14
Chair Chang: So raise your hand if you would like further discussion on this item. I’m not seeing 15
anything for this one. Great. The third one, repeal the retail rese-,preservation ordinance. So 16
we definitely all want to discuss that one. Number 3. The fourth item is to amend parking 17
regulations to extend AB 2097 to the entire CD-C zone. Raise your hand if you would like to 18
discuss that item further. Okay, we’ve got a raised hand. Number 5, create comparative zoning 19
use table. Revise the “What Use Where” handout. Raise your hand if you would like to discuss 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
that item further. No. Nobody is raising their hand for that one. Okay. The sixth one is revise 1
Chapter 18.30 combining districts to allow practical waivers and adjustments. Would anybody 2
like to discuss that further? Okay. I got a raised hand. Thank you. Number 7 is to allow non-3
retail uses on ground floor with limitations. I’ve got a raised hand for that one. Number 8, allow 4
non-retail uses on ground floor with limitations, part 2. This is the one that’s specifically about 5
increasing the fitness spa and exercise facility floor area for a CUP from 1,800 to 3,000. Would 6
anybody like to discuss that item further? Yes. Doria does. Okay. Oh, sorry. Commissioner 7
Summa would like to. Number 8. Okay. Number 9, repeal or amend office conversion and 8
construction limitations. Raise your hand. Okay. Number 10, amend 18.16.50 office use 9
restrictions. Raise your hand if you would like to discuss that further. All right. We have lots of 10
raised hands for that one. Number 11 was amend parking regulations. Raise your hand if you 11
would like to discuss it further. Lots of raised hands for that one. Number 12, another amend 12
parking regulations; it’s to implement AB 2097. Would anybody like to discuss that? 13
14
Commissioner Summa: I have a question. 15
16
Chair Chang: Let’s just take that question quickly. Do you have a question about it? About what 17
it means? 18
19
Commissioner Summa: I would like to discuss further our concern about how it’s implemented. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Understood. Okay. We’ll… 2
3
Commissioner Summa: I don’t know if that’s okay for this. 4
5
Chair Chang: No, that’s fine. We’ll – okay. The 13th item, standards for specific retail uses. This is 6
about adjusting CUP approval criteria. Would anybody like to discuss this further? I don’t see 7
anybody. Okay. Yay. One that we don’t have to discuss further. Number 14 is amend parking 8
regulations. And this is a long-term recommendation about AB 1317. Would anybody like to 9
discuss it further? Yes. We have one person. Right. Okay. And then number 15, a 10
comprehensive zoning ordinance update. Would anybody like to discuss that recommendation 11
further? Hooray. We all agree on the difficult long-term recommendation. All right. So I think 12
there are maybe 4 out of the 15 recommendations that we could skip. Five. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: [Inaudible 73:46] 51550. 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Thank you. So why don’t we quickly memorialize that with a vote and 17
just say – if you’d like to make a motion, Commissioner Hechtman? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. I will move that the PTC recommend to Council, consultant 1
recommendations 1, 2, 5, 13, and 15 in our August 14th staff packet. 2
3
Chair Chang: I second. Is there any additional discussion with them? Yes, Commissioner 4
Reckdahl. 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Oh, I was going to second. 7
8
Chair Chang: Oh, okay. I just seconded it. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 11
12
Chair Chang: All right. Then let’s – Ms. Dao, could you take the vote on that please? 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 15
16
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 7-0. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. Now we are left with what to do with the remaining 10 items. Again, I’m 5
going to make a proposal and my goal is not to cut off discussion, so if anybody disagrees with 6
me, I welcome the disagreement. My thought is that we have had a lot of discussion about all 7
of these recommendations already. There is perhaps some new – like a modification to the 8
recommendation or some new information presented in these recommendations. I’m hoping 9
that we can limit our discussion to the new component if any Commissioner thinks that there is 10
something new and then take a vote on the item. But I don’t know if I am being too optimistic 11
about the amount of discussion. So that’s what I’m hoping to do because I don’t want to have 12
the discussion over again when we’ve already had these discussions. But I’m also not sure how 13
practically possible it is to do this. So thoughts, colleagues? 14
15
Commissioner Lu: That sounds like a great plan and I will try to stay disciplined to it. 16
17
Chair Chang: Other thoughts? Commissioner Summa? 18
19
Commissioner Summa: So we’re going to vote on these without discussion or… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: No. We’ll discuss [inaudible 76:30] anything that seems new about it. We can 2
certain – and we will definitely get the chance to speak to our no votes because I think.. 3
4
Commissioner Summa: [Right 76:39]. 5
6
Chair Chang: …it’s important to capture that. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: Okay. 9
10
Chair Chang: But I’m hoping to not like relitigate everything that we’ve done in something like 11
three or four PTC meetings. 12
13
Female: Seven. 14
15
Chair Chang: Seven. I’m told we’ve discussed these things seven times. Okay. So I’m not seeing 16
lights from any other of my colleagues, so I’m hoping we can move pretty rapidly through 17
these. All right. So we’re going to go back to item number – recommendation number 3. And 18
again, Mr. Wery, if we could toggle back to that. So this is repealing the Retail Preservation 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Ordinance. Is there anything about this that anybody thinks is new that they would like to raise 1
right now? Otherwise, I think we can just vote on it and then we can speak to our no votes. 2
3
Jonathan Lait: I just want to get Mr. Wery to go to the detail slide, please. 4
5
Chair Chang: Yes. 6
7
Jonathan Lait: Thank you. 8
9
Chair Chang: I’ll wait. 10
11
Dan Wery: [Inaudible 17:36]. 12
13
Chair Chang: Okay. I am seeing a light from Commissioner Hechtman, please. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. And while I like the strategy, I do want to start with sort 16
of a prefatory comment for all of these things that we’re about to maybe discuss so its on the 17
table, and that is I think here that overall that we really need to go bold. I think that our retail 18
environment is really in bad shape right now. It doesn’t make sense that it should be given the 19
affluence of our population and the supposed overbalance of workers coming to our 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
community every day but it is. And so I think we need to take some bold steps. The RPO was a 1
bold step in its day and it worked until it didn’t. And so the way I’m thinking about these items 2
as we go through them is we should be essentially stepping toward but not to deregulation and 3
if as we move forward, we see unintended consequences, then we amend to deal with them 4
rather than assume upfront that these consequences will happen and limit our change to not 5
allow it. So that’s my preface. And incidentally, I am comfortable with the timing breakdown 6
presented in the staff report, the near-term, mid-term, and long-term. I think all that’s fine. I do 7
want to talk about the RPO briefly. And I guess my new point, if you will, or concept is I think it’s 8
outlived its usefulness, but I worry about the message that would be sent if we just repealed it. 9
Instead of doing that, I want to float the idea that we retain that section of the code but 10
basically rewrite it, so it’s really just a policy statement of the importance of retail in this 11
community and maybe parts of that are in the – I haven’t read the RPO in so long- maybe parts 12
of that are in the existing preface but we can rewrite that to state the importance and then 13
direct people from there to our GF and our provisions elsewhere in the code as examples of 14
efforts to protect retail. So that’s kind of the idea I wanted to float − is it would get rid of the 15
restrictions that are in the RPO but retain the concept that we do want to protect our retail. 16
17
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: So I also had a broad kind of generalized statement for this area or idea 1
and it wouldn’t be the same. But basically I do not want to limit the retail – the success of the 2
retail areas to downtown and California Avene. I think it is inherently a bad idea to not serve 3
the rest of the community, and I think it’s remarkably unfair. So – and I want to point out that 4
building more office is antithetical to helping property owners that have office now that has 5
been vacant for a while. And at some point, things are going to catch up with them financially 6
and they won’t be able to bear these vacancies. So I think that’s another issue. I also think that 7
some of the things that the Director Lait brought up as being problems were processing or 8
procedural problems of what happens at the development center. And while I know we’re 9
constantly always trying to improve those things, those are not going to get improved by 10
relaxing regulations. That problem. And then I would say that the other thing that none of this 11
will address is what most retailers in my experience complain about in Palo Alto and the reason 12
most of them leave is the high prices of rentals per square foot in this community. So it’s a 13
question of whether getting rid of regulations is going to exacerbate the retail flight from our 14
community or help it. And I don’t think government moves fast enough to respond quickly if it 15
starts to really hurt it. People – we need retail. Maybe we need less. And I think it is wrong to 16
build more office under any of these scenarios. So I’m surprised we don’t have more peop-, 17
members of the public here tonight, but I think that Ms. Dellenbach covered all these things. 18
And I also think there is a reason for reg-, regulations and CPUs and sometimes that is to 19
specifically regulate the number of type of business so we don’t get too many of those. And so 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
CPUs have their place too. That said, I would broadly like to redefine our description of retail 1
and retail-like, so it doesn’t prohibit anybody from walking in with a great new idea − hopefully, 2
it’s not sleeping pods − but to our development center and ask to do it. So that’s kind of how 3
I’m approaching this. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. I do have a comment about this one or a thought, which is that the – what’s 6
in the staff report, which says – notes that the PTC agreed that the RPO is not needed beyond 7
University and California Avenue is not something that I remember being the case. I think that 8
we may have said that we would only want to keep the RPO as exactly as it is currently written 9
for University and California Avenues but I’m not even sure we said that. I think we had 10
agreement that the RPO could use some tweaking at least, if not – I think at a minimum 11
tweaking and I think that some folks were in favor of repealing it entirely, but I don’t think that 12
that statement is correct. All right. With that, I don’t see hands or lights, so why don’t we vote 13
with respect to this. I guess we need a motion or how do we want to handle this? Just a vote on 14
the rec-… 15
16
Jonathan Lait: I would. I would just do a quick motion vote on that and see how it goes. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I move that we accept – we recommend to Council option #3. 1
2
Chair Chang: Or you could do it in the reverse if you don’t recommend it, I suppose. Okay. Keep 3
it the way − all right. Now we need a second though for that in order… 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Second. 6
7
Chair Chang; Great. We’re seconding it. Okay. Ms. Dao, could you… 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Sorry. Just to – I’m sorry. Is the motion to recommend to Council… 10
11
Chair Chang: Number 3. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: The consultant’s recommendation? 14
15
Chair Chang: Yes. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 18
19
Chair Chang: Okay. Ms. Dao, could you please take the vote? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 2
3
Chair Chang: No. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: No. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 14
15
Commissioner Summa: No. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 18
19
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I’m not sure we could hear that. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Sorry. Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 10
11
Commissioner Akin: No. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Motion fails 3-4. 14
15
Chair Chang: Okay. Would anybody like to speak to their no votes? Did you have a light? 16
Commissioner Akin. 17
18
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. I think most of this has been covered already. There are a 19
lot of relaxations and technical updates that should be made and the consultant has covered 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
many of those, but we did go over this in great detail and decided, at least in my understanding, 1
that there’s not an obvious correlation between RPO and lack of retail vitality. The Ad Hoc in 2
particular went over this in considerable detail and recommended minor changes but overall 3
the retention of the RPO. So that’s the basis for my vote. 4
5
Chair Chang: Would anybody else like to speak to their no vote? Okay. I would like to speak to 6
my no vote, which is that I would not feel comfortable repealing the RPO without protecting 7
some of our really vibrant other non-University, non-Cal. Ave. retail areas. And so that is why I 8
voted no. I do think that there’s a lot that we can do to make it more flexible. And so if there 9
were a substitute motion that were to look at modifying it, that I would support. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: Chair, I’m just wondering why didn’t – why did we just push – if you 12
guys need to make changes, we would have voted on that. 13
14
Chair Chang: I think the challenge is that – so we can certainly do that. My understanding is that 15
this is going to be presented to the Council Ad Hoc and that what we needed to do and – we 16
needed to provide some additional information at a more granular detail with our votes than 17
we had done at the last meeting. Staff. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah, I feel like I missed out on part of the Ad Hoc on these 1
discussions and would be interested in supporting it and finding a way to get all on the same 2
page. However, if you think that this will be presented with your Ad Hoc recommendations to 3
the City Councils Ad Hoc, then that would be fine too. I don’t know what your plan is. But if you 4
put all that work into it, I think we want to hear it. 5
6
Albert Yang: I just want to note that because that motion failed, we do need another motion 7
that will pass. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. So would somebody like to make – so basically we need to make 10
a motion to not recommend this or a motion to recommend that the RPO be modified. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So that means for each recommendation, we have to have some type of 13
motion that passes? 14
15
Chair Chang: Correct. That sounds like that’s the case. 16
17
Albert Yang: Right. The PTC needs to make a recommendation, which it hasn’t done so far on 18
this item. Right? There was a proposal to make one type of recommendation and that failed but 19
we don’t know actually what recommendation the PTC would make. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I can take a stab at making the motion. So I move that the PTC recommend to 2
Council that we do not wholesale repeal the Retail Preservation Ordinance but that we look at 3
making some modifications to it. And I’m not going to specify what those would be. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Second. 6
7
Chair Chang: Do we have additional discussion on this motion? 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: If you want to include your Ad Hoc Committees’ report, do we want 10
to review that? And kind of attach it to this? Or what’s the best way to get your thoughts aired? 11
12
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl, did you have a thought about that? 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Is that agendized to attach a report? 15
16
Chair Chang: I don’t think it has to be one way or the other but if the PTC would like us to attach 17
a report – and I think at the last – the last time this came before us, there was a motion that we 18
put a report together and forward that to Council. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 1
2
Chair Chang: I’m not sure we need to make that motion again though because we can still do 3
that. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah, but we haven’t seen it. That’s the problem. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 8
9
Chair Chang: So I think that’s the – could I get some guidance from staff on this? 10
11
Jonathan Lait: Yeah, I think… 12
13
Chair Chang: Because if we have to see it, then we have to all discuss it again, correct? 14
15
Jonathan Lait: If you have to see… 16
17
Chair Chang: Like… 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: I don’t know about the report, the Ad Hoc report, if that’s what you’re referring 1
to. But… 2
3
Chair Chang: Well what had agreed… 4
5
Jonathan Lait: …maybe I can answer the question another way. 6
7
Chair Chang: Sure. 8
9
Jonathan Lait: The – so this is good. I don’t want us to feel like we have to get bogged down and 10
try to have everything nailed down. Staff would probably make a recommendation where we 11
have a 4th revote to have a discussion with the Ad Hoc to explore it further because there’s 12
some uncertainty as to how we want – would want to proceed. And I think all we want to do is 13
know should we proceed down this path to look at the po-, I mean the first motion with the five 14
will have strong support. For ones that we don’t have strong support, that’s going to require 15
more analysis and we can take a look at that. So even if you vote against it or support it and if 16
it’s a 4-3, to me that tells me that we need to have more community conversation about that, 17
and it would come back to you again assuming that that the Council supported that notion to 18
really get into the details. So the fact that we’re not quite settled on it is actually a good 19
direction for us because we know that we got some more work to do on that to bed it up. So 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
I’m comfortable – and again, not knowing what the other report is, I think we’re good with this 1
motion that you’ve laid out and it will either pass or it won’t. It may be a 4-3. You may get more 2
support behind it, but it doesn’t mean that you necessarily will agree with the ordinance that 3
ultimately comes before you. There’s a lot to be worked out between now and then. 4
5
Chair Chang: Right. Great. Okay. Then based on what – based on staff guidance, I’m just going 6
to keep my motion as it is just to keep us going given that it will come back to us if there is – 7
actually is an RPO change. All right. Is there further discussion? All right. 8
9
Commissioner Summa: I have a question. 10
11
Chair Chang: Oh, yes. 12
13
Commissioner Summa: Wouldn’t this be quicker if we made all the motions in the affirmative 14
way the second one was done. I mean do we have to take two motions, two votes on each one? 15
16
Jonathan Lait: No, I don’t – I think that’s what we learned in this one. I think going forward, they 17
will be affirmative votes. 18
19
Commissioner Summa: Okay. [Inaudible 93:26]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Male: Right. We don’t know which way the Commissioners will vote. 2
3
Jonathan Lait: Affirmative votes depending on which… 4
5
Male: Yeah. 6
7
Jonathan Lait: You kind of have to read the room I guess a little bit to know which way the 8
motion’s going to go. 9
10
Chair Chang: Well let’s – since we’ve done this one, let’s finish it off. And then we can adjust 11
our process. Okay. Ms. Dao, could you take the vote, please? 12
13
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 14
15
Commissioner Lu: Abstain. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 18
19
Commissioner Summa? Can you – can someone restate the way it was stated please? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: I believe that my motion – yeah, please. Thank you. 2
3
Jonathan Lait: I have a motion to look further at changes to the Retail Preservation Ordinance. 4
5
Chair Chang: But to not repeal it wholesale. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissoner Akin? 10
11
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 14
15
Chair Chang: Yes. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 6
7
Commissioner Templeton? Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0-1. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. Now we need to go faster than this. So let’s try and make – I mean I think 12
we have to make affirmative – I think it makes most sense to make affirmative motions and if 13
we need to, then… 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: But I think that’s only going to happen where a majority of the 16
people don’t like – like here, majority didn’t want to repeal the RPO. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: I don’t know that we have a majority not liking any of the other 1
items. We have people wanting to talk about it. 2
3
Chair Chang: Right. That’s why I think that we can make – we can continue to make 4
affirmative… 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. 7
8
Chair Chang: …motions. Yes. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Meaning to – when you say affirmative you mean move the 11
consultant recommendations… 12
13
Chair Chang: Correct. 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. 16
17
Chair Chang: Yes. 18
19
Commissioner Hechtman: I agree. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. So let’s move on to the next one. So it’s item – sorry. Recommendation 2
number 4, which is to ex-, amend the parking regulations to extend the AB 2097 to the entire 3
CD-C zone. So light’m up if you wanted to discuss this one. I am seeing no lights. So 4
Commissioner Summa, would you like to say something about this one? 5
6
Commissioner Summa: No, I do not support this because I do not think it is necessary. And I 7
don’t think we resolved the very serious issues that we have with how ADA and EVSE, but 8
mostly ADA, accessible parking spots are handled under this scenario. And I don’t feel like we 9
have also established clearly how we calculate the ½ mile. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. 12
13
Commissioner Summa: And in case this law is repealed at the State level, I think we should not 14
extend it. I think it’s messy to extend it to other portions where it doesn’t have to be imposed. 15
16
Chair Chang: All right. Other discussion? Would somebody like – oh, yeah. Commissioner 17
Reckdahl. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Would we write this so that if 2097 was repealed, this also would be 1
repealed? 2
3
Jonathan Lait: Yeah, I think we would certainly do that and, of course, again the [inaudible 4
96:57] understanding Commissioner Summa’s comments, I think those are all things that we’re 5
going to be discussing with the City Council in a couple of months. And depending on that 6
outcome, I think that may influence what happens here. Again, we’re just talking about 16 7
properties at this point to create parity within the downtown parking assessment district and 8
whatever the Council decides we want to do to address the comments that Commissioner 9
Summa raised presumably would also apply to these 16 properties as well or not if this motion 10
doesn’t go forward. So… 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I move that PTC recommend to Council that they accept the consultant’s 13
recommendation number 4. 14
15
Chair Chang: I would second it if I can make a small amendment to that. Okay. So my suggested 16
amendment would be − and that we – the whatever – however Council decides to implement 17
2097 with respect to the rest of the CD-C zone would be applied to those 16 parcels as well. 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Specifically with our concerns to ADA and EVSE parking. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I accept that. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. Then I’ll second. Discussion per-, okay. Commissioner Hechtman. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah, this is really on the point of whether – if 2097 goes away, this 8
should go away too. We don’t have an ordinance tonight, so that’s – I think that’s the kind of 9
thing we don’t have to discuss on these remaining issues, recognizing that when we do have a 10
draft ordinance that comes back to us, that’s the kind of point we can bring up then. And that 11
will shorten things tonight maybe a little bit. So I’m supportive of the motion. 12
13
Chair Chang: Okay. Could we – I don’t see other lights, so let’s take the vote on this one. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 4
5
Commissioner Summa: No. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 8
9
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 16
17
Chair Chang: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-1. 4
5
Chair Chang: Thank you. Would you like to speak to your no vote, Commissioner Summa? 6
7
Commissioner Summa: No, I think I already did. 8
9
Chair Chang: Thank you. All right. We’re going to go onto number 6, which is to revise 1830, the 10
combining districts to allow practical waivers and adjustments. And so if you wanted to discuss 11
this item, light it up. Commissioner Lu. 12
13
Commissioner Lu: I want to confirm how this overlapped with another section of 18.30 about 14
permitted uses on Cal. Ave., about how beauty shops, nail salons, barbershops, so on were not 15
along – permitted. So would this flexibility apply to that part of the Cal. Ave. permitted uses as 16
well? 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: If I’m understanding the question, Commissioner Lu, you’re asking would a use 1
that is specifically prohibited in Cal. Ave. be allowed to take advantage of this alternative use, 2
whatever the language is – the reasoning here – some kind of adjustment. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 5
6
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. No, I would not extend it to that. I think if the code − and Albert Yang can 7
correct me if I’m wrong. But if the code is specific in saying we do not want these uses, we 8
would not then allow that use to get approved through this process. 9
10
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. That was my only comment and question here. We did talk 11
about those specifically called-out uses that were not allowed on Cal. Ave. and I don’t think 12
they’re otherwise addressed in these recommendations. So I think it’s still just worth noting as 13
a little bit of [inaudible 101:18] that we could also think about cleaning up. Potentially, it’s a 14
separate recommendation. Maybe Council can consider it or potentially − though I wouldn’t 15
want this to be long-term − potentially, this could also be part of the long-term cleanup as well. 16
So just wanted to note that. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. Would anybody like – I’m not seeing lights, so would anybody like to make a 19
motion regarding this recommendation? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I move that the PTC recommend to Council that they accept the 2
consultant’s recommendation number 6. 3
4
Chair Chang: Do I have a second? 5
6
Commissioner Akin: Second. 7
8
Chair Chang: Great. I have a light now. Oh, okay. Ghost light. Any other discussion on this? All 9
right. Ms. Dao, please take the vote. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 16
17
Chair Chang: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 8
9
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 7-0. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Wonderful. Now we’re moving onto Recommendation Number 7, which is to 2
allow non-retail uses on ground floor with limitations and this is to create a more flexible retail-3
like definition and use tables to allow non-retail uses at non-street facing locations on side 4
streets when vacancy exceeds 10 percent subject to limits. Light’m up. Okay, we’ve got 5
Commissioner Akin and Commissioner Summa. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. There is a lot that’s good in this recommendation 8
supporting the more flexible definition of retail-like uses and uses on side streets. The primary 9
objection I have here is context dependent rules. So rules – new rules that change the behavior 10
of approval depending on other properties that are nearby, either their types of uses or 11
vacancy rates. If what we’re after is to add predictability and certainty to the process, that’s 12
exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. So that’s my primary objection. 13
14
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 15
16
Commissioner Summa: I had a similar sort of feeling about this one and that the first part − it’s 17
made up of two parts – is good because it’s broadening our description of retail and retail-like. 18
But the second part is not acceptable. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Given that it sounds [it might 104:10] – based on my recollection of prior 1
conversations here that it’s two parts that are – one part is going to be broadly supported by 2
the Commission and the second part may not be. Would somebody like to make a motion that 3
might split it into two? 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: The problem with splitting into two is I think we have to be careful about 6
how we split it. So if you say, for example, retail could be 90 percent non-retail and 10 percent 7
retail, then you’re really undermining your retail. But if it ends up being 50/50 or some more 8
reasonable split, then you aren’t necessarily undermining retail. So the implementation of this 9
is very tricky and I… 10
11
Chair Chang: I wonder if I might try and make a motion that captures what I believe we were in 12
unanimous agreement on. And then we can go from there to address the rest of this. Okay. I’m 13
getting nods up here. So I would like to move that the PTC recommends to Council that we 14
establish a more flexible definition of retail-like that is based on our goals of maintaining 15
vibrancy and is not prescriptive of the actual specific uses. I think that’s – feel free to help me 16
out. 17
18
Male: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: I… 1
2
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Oh, I think not being prescriptive of uses is great but we would still at least 5
enumerate a partial list just for clarity for… 6
7
Chair Chang: Yeah. Absolutely. 8
9
Commissioner Lu: …down the line. Yes. Got it. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: For me, the side streets. [Inaudible 106:11] for example, if we’re talking 14
Ramona, I wouldn’t be supportive at all at Ramona. But if you’re talking about… 15
16
Chair Chang: So I’m only talking about the retail-like definition. Now how that like – I think we 17
had very – a lot of support here for coming up with a different retail-like definition. And I think 18
that that was kind of what the consultant as well as Director Lait was trying to capture… 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Oh, so… 1
2
Chair Chang: …when we were talking about all those uses. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Gotcha. 5
6
Chair Chang: I’m not talking about where because we’re… 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So you’re saying just goal-based… 9
10
Chair Chang: Goal-based definition… 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 13
14
Chair Chang: …of retail-like use. 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 17
18
Chair Chang: Because I think where it starts getting difficult for us is all this detail like 10 19
percent and side streets and everything else, so – yes, Commissioner Lait. Commissioner. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jonathan Lait: I’ve been promoted. 2
3
Chair Chang: Would you join us up here on the [inaudible 107:02] and like save us. Director Lait. 4
5
Jonathan Lait: Thank you. So I think that – so I understand the first part having – likely having 6
broad support. The second part I think is important because some of these spaces, particularly 7
if it’s RPOs – an RPO space can’t convert – it may be too big for a new retailer to come into a 8
certain space. Some of these spaces may be too large to effectively do that or they’re too deep. 9
There’s odd shapes. And if the objection to the – number 2 – that’s a new − listing sort of some 10
of the specificity is too granular. I think if there’s receptiveness to the concept that a space that 11
is now retail can have a back-of-house operation or component that is office or something 12
that’s not retail or retail-like, we can work through the standards that address the concerns 13
about making sure that that side street isn’t on Ramona or maybe we don’t need to get into the 14
whole discussion about tenancy, vacancy rates, and things like that because it may not be 15
relevant or necessary. So I’d want to – if you’re supportive of the concept, maybe let’s not get 16
bogged down on the specificity that’s shown here. 17
18
Chair Chang: So a couple thoughts. I’m very supportive of an updated and improved retail-like 19
definition. This – with respect to where that retail and retail-like use is allowed and how much, 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to me that starts getting into kind of the RPO territory and – right? Because it’s the RPO that 1
prescribes kind of that you can’t change any of this use. And so I just want to separate it 2
because there’s the definition component and then the where are we having that use. 3
4
Jonathan Lait: And so I agree with you. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. 7
8
Jonathan Lait: But there are some areas in the City where that wouldn’t be the standard. So for 9
instance, downtown, where you have a ground floor protection area or on Middlefield or 10
portions of California Avenue where you may get some depth to those lots, the code would 11
require the entirety of the space be retail or retail-like. And so what this is suggesting is that at 12
some depth or at some distance that is not visible to the public and it’s not supporting the 13
engagement of people walking on the street, would it be okay for there to be some office space 14
or some other non-retail like use without otherwise impacting the goals of our retail interest on 15
these core… 16
17
Chair Chang: I understand the issue. But I think we’re mixing… 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: …issues. In other words, we can have a definition and then separately we can talk 2
about – we can all agree on the definition but then we can argue about how much of a given 3
use. Are you saying when − that the code would dictate that it has to be 100 percent retail. Are 4
you saying that the code as currently constructed doesn’t allow us to mix uses? Is that what 5
you’re saying? 6
7
Jonathan Lait: On the ground floor. Yes, it would be in some instances… 8
9
Chair Chang: And is that the Retail Protection Ordinance piece of the code or is it broader than 10
that? 11
12
Jonathan Lait: That’s the zoning code. [And so 111:47]… 13
14
Chair Chang: Got it. Okay. 15
16
Jonathan Lait: …72 would help address that. So I agree that RPO can mitigate some of those 17
issues, maybe most of the issues citywide, but in the areas where there’s R − the R overlay or 18
the GF overlay, 72 would address that. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay, then. Can you suggest how you would change my motion in order to 1
capture that? 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I mean I think there are two separate concepts. 4
5
Chair Chang: Yeah. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: One is broadening the retail-like definition. Period. And the other is 8
saying… 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. Let’s keep my motion as is and we’ll just take it piecemeal, so we can at 11
least make some progress here. I’ll going to keep my motion as is. It doesn’t preclude the ability 12
to do what Director Lait has talked about. And we’ll see where we go. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Can you [inaudible 111:31] it? 15
16
Chair Chang: So my motion is to come up with a new retail-like definition that is based on the 17
goals of maintaining vibrancy rather than prescriptive uses. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: What you said is you moved PTC recommends that City Council 1
establish a more flexible definition of retail-like uses that is not prescriptive. 2
3
Chair Chang: Great. 4
5
Commissioner Summa: I wrote it down. 6
7
Chair Chang: Thank you. Do I have a second? 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I’ll second. 10
11
Chair Chang: Second. Do we have discussion on this? Okay. I’m going to just check. Do I have a 12
ghost light from Commissioner Lu or is it… 13
14
Commissioner Lu: Yeah, my light was on … 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. 17
18
Commissioner Lu: [inaudible 112:19]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: And then Commissioner Summa, was yours also a ghost light? 1
2
Commissioner Summa: It is unnecessary now. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. Commissioner Akin. Oops. 5
6
Commissioner Akin: I was just going to comment that the vibrancy definition you suggest is 7
actually covered pretty well by what the consultant has recommended. So if we simply follow 8
through on 7.1, we might be in good shape. 9
10
Chair Chang: But the beginning of – oh, I – so you’re saying that I should just move 7.1? 11
12
Commissioner Akin: I am raising that as a possibility. 13
14
Chair Chang: Great. I would accept that amendment. Seconder? 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. Further discussion? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: I’m sorry. Is the motion to… 1
2
Chair Chang: So the motion would be to substitute or to amend my motion. Instead of saying 3
that that the motion is to recommend to Council the consultant’s Recommendation 7.1. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: So – oh, I see 7. Okay. Got it. On the screen here? 6
7
Chair Chang: Yes. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Thank you. 10
11
Chair Chang: Seeing no lights, Ms. Dao, could you please take the vote? 12
13
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 14
15
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 6
7
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 10
11
Chair Chang: Yes. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 14
15
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 18
19
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 7-0. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. Now we need to deal with the second half of 7. And I’m open to more 4
discussion or a motion. Light. Okay. Commissioner Lu and then Commissioner Akin. 5
6
Commissioner Lu: I like Director Lait’s comment that we do not need to take Section 2 so 7
literally. I think some of the details about the side streets, we can kind of parse out when the 8
actual details behind this recommendation are hashed out. I definitely agree with 9
Commissioner Akin that the vacancy threshold is problematic but I also believe that there’s a lot 10
of leeway here about how exactly that’s defined. It might not even be a threshold of adjacent 11
properties. It could just be durations for one property. I think − like a vacancy duration for one 12
property potentially. I don’t want to like read too much flexibility into that that isn’t there. But 13
given Director Lait’s clarifications, I’m generally fine with 2 as it is. 14
15
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin. 16
17
Commissioner Akin: All right. I think much of what I would have said, Commissioner Lu just 18
covered. I’ll just reiterate that the context dependent constraints really are problematic both 19
because they can be gamed and because they vary over time, sometimes over a matter of days. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
So if you’re really looking at providing certainty, then we need to shy away from those. So I do 1
like the other provisions, and as Director Lait suggested, I think we can work with those. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 4
5
Commissioner Summa: Yeah, so I think Commissoner Lait was thinking that this would be 6
useful… 7
8
Chair Chang: Director Lait. 9
10
Commissioner Summa: I mean – sorry. I don’t know if it’s a promotion or a demotion. I know 11
you get paid more though. So – you started it. 12
13
Chair Chang: I know I started it. 14
15
Commissioner Summa: And this isn’t – for me, this is not ready at all to be memorialized. I think 16
that the idea of having some in some parts of the city, some lots that are deeper where we 17
would want to allow some deviation from all retail has not been clearly established where or 18
what and I think that this is – I just don’t think this is ready. I don’t think we’ve determined 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
where we would really like to have this and why based on the zoning and the prevailing lot size, 1
etc. So I won’t be supporting it. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Thanks. I want to try to understand Commissioner Akin’s context-6
based point. Commissioner Akin, is that referenced to the third bullet in number 2? So that the 7
vacancy… 8
9
Commissioner Akin: [Inaudible 117:21]. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: …rate − is that the thing that could be gamed. So if we get rid of the 12
third bullet, you’re supportive of the remaining three bullets? 13
14
Commissioner Akin: So the third bullet certainly would have to go. The fourth one, I’m not clear 15
on either. These are – whenever you talk about street frontage within a 300-foot radius and 16
things change, when do the changes take effect in the decision process? So if you have 17
proposed a project but not yet received an entitlement and the condition on which that project 18
is based no longer holds, what is our obligation? That’s the kind of uncertainty that I think we’d 19
like to avoid. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So if the motion were number 2 but only the first two bullets, 2
that’s something you could support? 3
4
Commissioner Akin: Me, personally, yes. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. All right. I’m prepared to make that motion after everyone 7
who wants to speak has spoken. 8
9
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: The first two bullets, I would support in theory. The [inaudible 118:39], I’d 12
have to be very careful about. So if we’re saying the first two bullets − the [inaudible 118:45] 13
behind the first two bullets, I would support that. If it’s actually saying as prescriptive as it is, 14
then I would not. 15
16
Chair Chang: I think we could make a softer motion maybe like to consider that kind of thing. So 17
go ahead, Commissioner Hechtman. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: Well I guess I was thinking again, this is concept level only right now, 1
not literal language of code. And so I think for example, the concern about, “Well is this going 2
to apply on Ramona?” That’s a tweak we can deal with when we’re looking at actual language. 3
So I’m – I think 1 and 2 will give direction to come back with an ordinance that doesn’t have 4
these contextual concerns. And then we can… 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Can you add… 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: …fine tune it. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: …that disclosure in the… 11
12
Chair Chang: Let – the public can’t hear us when we’re not speaking in our mics, Commissioner 13
Reckdahl. So… 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Can your motion reflect that that this is not – that we have wiggle room 16
here. That this is just… 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah, let me try that. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Great. 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: All right. Let’s see. I move that the PTC recommend to the Council 3
consultant recommendation 7-2, the first two bullets only, recognizing that when an ordinance 4
is drafted, it will need to look more closely at these locational flexibility rights. Does that work? 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I’ll second that. 7
8
Chair Chang: Okay. Additional discussion? All right. Great. Let’s call the vote, please. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 3
4
Chair Chang: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 7
8
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: No. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-1. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. I think with that, we can move on to the next item, which is 1
recommendation number 8. This is a second part of allowing non-retail uses on ground floor. 2
This is specifically increasing fitness spas, exercise facilities, floor-area thresholds for a CUP 3
from 1,800 to 3,000 square feet to match the industry average. And to allow other viable active 4
uses without a CUP, such as pet grooming, etc., etc., and if necessary require a CUP for certain 5
uses in excess of a maximum size. All right. Commissioner Summa. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: So I think the problem with this one is it has too many different things in 8
it. So I find that the increasing the gym size from 1,800 to 3,000 to be completely random and 9
not very important. I mean really what we’ve had on California Avenue is we already have 10
complaints about too many gyms. And so I don’t – I just don’t think that’s a good idea. I don’t 11
think you should have to get a CUP for pet grooming. The reason – one of the reasons we do it 12
for nail salons specifically is because we were getting too many of them specifically on Cal. Ave. 13
So we’re just undoing some of the things. Learning centers are, I think, allowed. And I know that 14
even trade schools are allowed on the second floor in the downtown zone. And medical office 15
with retail component, we’ve had so many discussions about this. We already allowed, for 16
whatever reason, eyeglass stores that sell eyeglasses and there can be a ophthalmologist, I 17
guess, on site. But we didn’t want to extend that for Town & Country and the Council did 18
extend it for side streets downtown. You can have retail like medical. So I think that’s too 19
broad. I think this is mixing too many things in one, and I don’t see necessarily the advantage. I 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
mean there was a suggestion 3K is a – the industry standard but I don’t really know much about 1
that particular fact except it was stated as a fact. So I just – I’m not in favor of this. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: I’m prepared to make a motion unless anyone has further comment. 6
7
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 8
9
Commissioner Lu: I have a clarifying question actually. Repeating my question before. So would 10
this override the section of 18 or the section on Cal. Ave. with restricted uses specifically on Cal. 11
Ave.? 12
13
Jonathan Lait: So it doesn’t have to. I think this is too general and conceptual to answer that 14
question specifically. 15
16
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Got it. That’s fine. 17
18
Chair Chang: I guess where I am on this one − and I wanted to state it is that I’m not entirely – I 19
agree that this threshold from 1,800 to 3,000 specifically for these three types of businesses is a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
bit strange and maybe overly specific. But I wonder if a lot of the other – a lot of the rest of this 1
might already be solved by a more flexible – with a more flexible definition for retail-like. So I 2
don’t know that – I don’t know what the purpose of this one is. And because I don’t understand 3
it, I’m not sure that I would support it. Go ahead, Commissioner Reckdahl. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I somewhat agree but I don’t see it doing any harm. So I would support it. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Can I make a motion? 8
9
Chair Chang: Yeah, sure. Go ahead. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: I move that the PTC recommend to the City Council consultant 12
recommendation number 8. 13
14
Commissioner Lu: I’ll second. 15
16
Chair Chang: Further discussion? Okay, Ms. Dao, could you please call the vote? 17
18
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: No. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 17
18
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 1
2
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 3
4
Chair Chang: Yes. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-1. 7
8
Chair Chang: All right. Onto number 9. Repeal or amend the office conversion and construction 9
limitations. Light’m up. Commissioner Hechtman. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. So recommendation number 9 is actually giving us 12
choices, repeal or amend. And while before I said go bold, here’s a situation where I think we 13
can temper our boldness and take a step in the right direction. And so I’d be supportive of the 14
second option, which is to relax the standards. 15
16
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin. 17
18
Commissioner Akin: I’m also split on this one. Eliminating the taking standard is clearly 19
justifiable and I think that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Anyone who’s lived in Silicon 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Valley for a few of the boom and bust cycles around here knows that the current office 1
vacancies are really not likely to last. And I think our primary goal ought to be to promote 2
housing and resident-serving businesses, not lock-in spaces to office use. So as a rule, I’m not in 3
favor of changes that make it easier to lock in more office use. 4
5
Chair Chang: I don’t see other lights so I will speak to this. I think that in the context, if the 6
world were only retail and office, then I could partially support this, but really the existence of 7
the office limits, at least when I supported them, was regarding the jobs/housing imbalance, 8
which is a different issue. I do understand that more office workers improves our retail 9
situation, but we have an even larger problem in the area with respect to office space being 10
more desirable for landlords to own. And so I do not support this because of the – what I think 11
may be a negative effect on housing production. I see no other comments. Would somebody 12
like to make a motion? You can make a negative motion. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: I will move that the PTC recommend to the City Council the 15
consultant second option recommendation. 16
17
Chair Chang: I’m not sure I understand what the second option is. 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: So as stated on Packet Page 102, the first option is to repeal the 1
annual office limits while the second option is a more nuanced approach that involves three 2
separate components, the third of which Commissioner Akin referenced. 3
4
Chair Chang: Do we have a second? Sorry. Do you have a – Commissioner Summa. 5
6
Commissioner Summa: I just have – would you repeat that. I’m sorry I was talking and didn’t 7
hear you. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. The motion that I made is to for the PTC to recommend the 10
consultant’s second option recommendation on number 8, which is to relax the annual office 11
limits with three associated approaches enumerated on Packet Page 102. 12
13
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. 14
15
Chair Chang: Do we have a second? 16
17
Amy French: Chair, I have to say though we’re on number 9. 18
19
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Amy French: You said 8, so… 2
3
Chair Chang: Oh, thank you for the clarification… 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Sorry. 6
7
Chair Chang: …Ms. French. 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Number 9. Thank you. 10
11
Chair Chang: Do we have a second? Okay. We do not have a second. Do we have a different 12
motion that somebody would like to make? I will take a stab at it. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I would… 15
16
Chair Chang: Go ahead. Commissioner Reckdahl. 17
18
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I move that PTC recommend to Council to not support consultant 19
recommendation number 9. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Second. Okay. Sorry. I’ll second that. Further discussion? Okay. Ms. Dao, please 2
take the vote. 3
4
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 5
6
Chair Chang: No. Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 11
12
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 13
14
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 15
16
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: No. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 1
2
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 3
4
Chair Chang: Commissioner, we couldn’t… 5
6
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 9
10
Commissioner Summa: Now you guys are confusing me. Moved to not recommend. Yes. 11
12
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 13
14
Commissioner Templeton: No. 15
16
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 5-2. 17
18
Chair Chang: Okay. So onto number 10. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Hechtman: No votes? 1
2
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. Thank you. Would you like to speak to your no votes? Commissioner 3
Hechtman. 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes, just briefly. I think this is a little bit of maybe baby with the 6
bathwater because what we’ve communicated is we’re okay leaving in place the 7
unconstitutional taking standard and also we believe that putting ground floor office behind 8
retail frontage would somehow inhibit housing, which I suppose would otherwise go in the 9
space behind the ground floor retail. So I think we could have maybe not rejected the whole 10
recommendation but rather spend a little more time and moved forward parts of it that we 11
agree are good and not bad. 12
13
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. I also feel that we could use more discussion on this and 16
given the constraints of how the evening has been progressing and we’re not making the time − 17
we want to understand it. But this is one that we probably could have helped refine and maybe 18
that’s some of the [inaudible 133:08] come over with your Ad Hoc notes. Thank you. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. Let’s go onto Number 11. This is amending the parking regulations by 1
reducing minimum parking regulations. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 133:27] 10. 4
5
Chair Chang: Oh, did I skip? 6
7
Female: Yeah. 8
9
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. Okay. So many of these. We are on to number 10, so amending office 10
use restrictions in the CN and CS Districts. It’s to eliminate or amend the 5,000 square foot 11
maximum office floor area per lot. Commissioner Lu. 12
13
Commissioner Lu: Sorry, that was a ghost light. 14
15
Chair Chang: Okay. Commissioner Hechtman. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. So this is another where we have a choice to eliminate or 18
amend and I just wanted to say I’m supportive to − of amending, not eliminating. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Any other lights? I don’t see anything. Are we ready for a motion on this? I don’t – 1
to be clear, I don’t want to stifle discussion. If we think that there’s a better place that we can 2
get to, great. But my understanding is also that our goal is not to come up with the full outlines 3
of any proposed ordinance. It’s to give staff direction. It’s to kind of these are the avenues that 4
we would like to explore. So I’m not seeing – oh, okay, Commissioner Summa. 5
6
Commissioner Summa: So my discomfort with this comes from the CN zone, which is 7
neighborhood commercial, which is specifically supposed to be neighborhood-serving uses 8
where it is commercial. And I’m – there’s already an erosion of that because it has not been 9
properly required over the years. And CS is a different zone. So I worry that it’s going to have an 10
effect in those cases with the CN zone because… 11
12
Chair Chang: Would you be supportive if we removed CN? 13
14
Commissioner Summa: I think it’s more appropriate if there’s no CN zone in there. And I think 15
we’re losing what was supposed to be special about the CN zone, which is the lowest impact on 16
its neighbors because it’s supposed to be neighborhood commercial and neighborhood serving. 17
So when it gets lumped in with CS, which is service commercial, I think we’re mixing two things. 18
19
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: So moving – thinking about what a motion might look like here, are we 2
moving towards something that would say specifically apply to the CS District only and rather 3
than saying eliminate or amend, straightforwardly say amend? 4
5
Chair Chang: I think that would address some of the concerns, at least some of my concerns. 6
I’m wondering if it – I’m not entirely sure that we spent a lot of time discussing CN versus CS 7
Districts. So I just don’t know where I think something like this should apply. Commissioner 8
Reckdahl. 9
10
Commissioner Lu: I think – oh, I’m sorry. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Again, this is CN and CS. These are commercial districts and I would rather 13
have some type of resident-serving businesses there than an office space. So I think that I 14
would not support this for that reason. 15
16
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 17
18
Commissioner Lu: I am comfortable amending this. I think the details of how this applies exactly 19
to CN and CS potentially could be clarified at a later time. I definitely realize the importance of 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
having really good neighborhood-serving retail but I think having some flexibility for office 1
space could actually help that. Office space could cover a range of uses that complement retail 2
and it could actually invite more investment too, so I’d be in favor of this worded as amend and 3
with the point made that how this works in CN and CS will be considered by staff and clarified. 4
5
Chair Chang: Other comments? A motion? Commissioner Hechtman. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. So again, unless we eliminate it, we’re not doing away with 8
maximum office floor area but we’re just recognizing its one size doesn’t necessarily fit every 9
situation. And so it could mean smaller maximum office space on smaller parcels. Right? So I 10
will move that the PTC recommend to the City Council the consultant’s recommendation 10 to 11
amend 18.16.050 to make the limitation on office use floor areas proportionate to the size of 12
the site or building to ensure an equitable impact, the details of which will be worked out in the 13
ordinance produced by staff. 14
15
Chair Chang: Do we have a second? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: I’ll second. 18
19
Chair Chang: Okay. Second. Further discussion? Then let’s take a vote. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 6
7
Commissioner Summa: No. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 10
11
Commissioner Akin: No. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 14
15
Chair Chang: No. 16
17
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: No. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Yeah, I haven’t made my decision yet. Give me a second. I would say 8
the way it was reworded is fine. So let’s go with yes for me. Thank you. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Motion fails 3-4. 11
12
Chair Chang: Would you like to speak to your no votes? Commissioner Akin. 13
14
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, I voted no for two reasons. One is I’m not sure that proportionality is 15
the right criterion, so I’m not sure I want to pass that advice along to Council. And the other is 16
once again, a lot of our problems have to do with creating too much office space and we really 17
want resident – more resident-serving businesses and housing instead. 18
19
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: Basically the same reasons and also what we’re finding in places where 2
there’s a lot of CN like El Camino and there’s also CS there. It’s combining of lots, which could 3
create very huge − if it’s proportional − very huge new office space. And I will state I think it’s 4
really unfortunate to do it in general. And it’s really a hardship for existing office owners who – 5
office space owners who have empty space. They – there’s buildings that have never been 6
occupied that were built right before COVID. So that’s all. 7
8
Chair Chang: I also voted no against this because I don’t think we need more office space. We 9
need more housing. And whenever we allow more office space, it makes the lot more valuable 10
for – it makes the lot more valuable and it results in it being more difficult to construct housing. 11
So I think I’d leave it as is. All right. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: I have my hand up for another comment if that’s possible. 14
15
Chair Chang: Yes. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I’m struck again by like some of these 18
conversations appear to have been had with the Ad Hoc Committee and we didn’t have a 19
chance to discuss or review it, and I’m worried that what’s happening here is that we’re giving 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
out a lot – as a result, we’re getting a lot of split votes and we haven’t really had a chance to 1
explore things. And I realize it wasn’t your intention at all but just wanted to bring that up and 2
say perhaps more discussion would benefit some of these where we keep splitting on. I don’t 3
know if that’s something we can deal with now or is it just going to wait till it comes back again? 4
But wanted to point that out. Thank you. 5
6
Chair Chang: Just to be clear, the Ad Hoc didn’t specifically see any of these recommendations 7
as currently presented and didn’t… 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: So then why are we… 10
11
Chair Chang: [Inaudible 142:42]. 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: …not having a discussion? 14
15
Chair Chang: Because we don’t have additional new data to back this up. We’ve discussed the 16
data. We indicated that we need more information on some of these things. There’s no more 17
that we can discuss because we don’t have any more information. 18
19
Commissioner Templeton: And who’s supposed to provide that information? Is that staff? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: We did provide readouts from the Ad Hoc to the Commission as a whole. 2
Perhaps the mistake we made – and you’re raising a very good point here – is that we didn’t do 3
it in writing. 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: And we did write a draft of recommendations, which was intended to go 8
forward and was stopped because the schedule for review and Council changed. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: Oh. 11
12
Commissioner Akin: So that went into limbo but that still exists. And if I may, forward it to 13
Director Lait, then he can decide what the appropriate process might be to review it for either 14
PTC or for the Council Ad Hoc. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: Thank you. I mean the additional context is very helpful and I – what 17
I’m [inaudible 143:59] at is not the process was awkward but that I do want to hear if these are 18
objections that are splitting the vote here. It would be worthwhile of taking the time to get into 19
it and I recognize it’s already going really over, so I get it. We can’t do it today but it is 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
important – like the work we do here is important in terms of informing Council of kind of the 1
pros and cons of all of these things. So that’s all I wanted to say and I appreciate the Chair’s 2
indulgence for the questions. 3
4
Chair Chang: No, thank you for asking them. And I think that where we last were as a group 5
when we saw the consultant’s report, was that there were places where either we disagreed 6
with the information that was presented because they didn’t accurately capture what the 7
current state of being was for Palo Alto or that we needed more data or that there were some 8
errors in the data. And we haven’t seen more data since then, so it makes it – there’s nothing 9
more to discuss, I guess. Is – I don’t – and I think… 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: [Inaudible 145:19]. 12
13
Chair Chang: …that’s why we agreed on the process. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: I think it’s okay, Chair, to be able to talk to staff and say, “Look, this 16
is a challenge with the presentation. We’ve asked for this to be back and we gave you extra 17
time and it’s coming back to us but we’re not able to make new decisions because there’s not 18
new…” 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: We’ve had that discussion. And… 1
2
Commissioner Templeton: I’m just calling it out. I know you said it earlier today and I’m saying 3
again. 4
5
Chair Chang: Yeah. 6
7
Commissioner Templeton: Because I just wanna make sure you know you’re not alone. 8
9
Chair Chang: Yeah. So we’ve had that discussion, and I think we needed to bring this back 10
before the PTC, if I understand Director Lait correctly – is because we ran into like limitations on 11
our budget for the consultant and we didn’t have enough clear direction from the PTC after the 12
last report came to us. So now we just have to attempt to provide some direction. And even if 13
it’s a split vote − much as I would like consensus on things − if a split vote is what it is, it is what 14
it is and then that will give data to the Council Committee as well as Council and staff that this 15
may be worth exploring more. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: Agreed. Agreed that we – it is important to be able to show where 18
we differ but it’s frustrating to only show the votes and not have the discussion. That’s all. 19
Thanks. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. So Commissioner Reckdahl. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I want to make one comment. We’ve talked about this before, but I 4
want to bring it up again. This is 1816050, and we did have a problem with that. It wasn’t 5
included in the consultant’s report, but if you have an office that’s in CN or CS and you can now 6
– it’s vacant and you want to use it for retail, you can’t bring it back to office. It’s a one-way 7
elevator, which means that if you have an empty office, you’re never going to use it for retail. 8
And we wanted to give them the flexibility to either if you had existing vacant office to either 9
rent it for office or retail without precluding going back to office. And that isn’t in here. I think 10
that’s something worthwhile but I don’t think we want to deal with that tonight. 11
12
Jonathan Lait: So relative to the Retail Preservation Ordinance? 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: There’s kind of two flavors of Retail Preservation Ordinance and this the 15
first version. 16
17
Jonathan Lait: So an office – so that scenario that you described is permissible? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, so if I have an office right now in CN and I have an office on − I can 1
do it but it’s vacant. If someone comes by and says, “Hey, can I use that for retail?” If I do that, I 2
lose future rights for office at that spot? 3
4
Jonathan Lait: No, that’s not consistent with my understanding of the ordinance. 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Well… 7
8
Jonathan Lait: [Inaudible 148:05] talks about as of a certain date… 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 11
12
Jonathan Lait: …if it was retail, it needs to stay retail. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, exactly. 15
16
Chair Chang: That’s useful information because our consultant told us that we lost that. That we 17
needed to address that problem. That a landlord might be pro-, disincentivized… 18
19
Jonathan Lait: They may be disincent… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: …to put in retail. 2
3
Jonathan Lait: They may not want to for fear or risk of city policy changing again but the way 4
that the code is written, as my recollection, is that the ordinance applies to the status of 5
properties as of a certain date. And so retail existed at that time. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: I think it says if it does retail after this date, then you have to keep it retail. 8
I’ll bring up the code. 9
10
Jonathan Lait: Well maybe we can take a look at that offline. 11
12
Chair Chang: Let’s table that and address it later. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 15
16
Jonathan Lait: I want to know you – on this item that you’re discussing, you still need a motion 17
because that last one failed. 18
19
Chair Chang: Yes. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jonathan Lait: And so it sounds like maybe there’s a – we want to punt on maybe this 2
recommendation for now. 3
4
Chair Chang: Correct. So just to give Council and staff what it needs, I’m going to make the 5
motion that we do not recommend consultant recommendation number 10 to Council. Is that 6
right? Did I get the right one? 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 149:30]. 9
10
Amy French: [Inaudible 149:32]. 11
12
Chair Chang: Correct. But we need now an affirmative… 13
14
Amy French: Oh. 15
16
Chair Chang: …motion. Could I have a second? 17
18
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Second. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Thank you. Commissioner Akin, did you have a light on? Okay. Discussion on this? 1
Please take the vote. Please. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 4
5
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 8
9
Chair Chang: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: No. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: No. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 8
9
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 5-2. 12
13
Chair Chang: Can I stop for a process check here? So I’m seeing many members of the public 14
who are in chambers and possibly some – well – I can’t see it all. Yes. Some on line hoping that 15
we would go on to the next item by now and we are over time by more than an hour. So I’m 16
wondering – I’m going to ask my colleagues here do we want to continue on with this? We’re 17
almost done. Or what we could do is stop at this point, go on to the next items and then come 18
back to this at the end of the meeting. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: How many items are left? 1
2
Chair Chang: Two, I’m hearing. 3
4
Male: [Inaudible 151:10]. 5
6
Chair Chang: Three, I’m hearing. 7
8
Jonathan Lait: Eleven, twelve, and fourteen. And 12 and 14, there was only one hand raised. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. So maybe we can continue on. Let’s power through then. All right. So we’re 11
on to number 11. Is that right? Thank you for helping me keep track. This is amending the 12
parking regulations to reduce the minimum parking regulations and conduct use surveys 13
towards resetting standards. Commissioner Akin. 14
15
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, my objection here was based on the history that particularly 16
downtown, it hasn’t been that long since we had a parking shortage that was regarded as so 17
severe that we had to put 2,000 vehicles into the nearby neighborhoods. And gradually over 18
time, that number has gone down but again I think it’s premature to say we reduce the 19
standards. It’s perfectly okay to consider studying those but be aware that as it’s likely that 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
both return to office and increased housing downtown are likely to increase parking demands. I 1
think it’s premature to reduce the minimum parking requirements now. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. Commissioner Summa. 4
5
Commissioner Summa: I agree with Commissioner Akin. And I would add to that that also taking 6
the parking away on El Camino has put parking directly into neighborhoods along El Camino and 7
therefore, I do not think this is at all a good way to go at this time. It’s directly kind of going – 8
taking back what we said we would do to help those neighborhoods around town. 9
10
Chair Chang: Other comments? 11
12
Commissioner Templeton: My hand is up. 13
14
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry about that. I can’t see. 15
16
Commissioner Templeton: No, it’s totally fine. 17
18
Chair Chang: Commissioner Templeton. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Templeton: I’m comfortable speaking up about it, so… 1
2
Chair Chang: Yeah, thank you. Commissioner Templeton. 3
4
Commissioner Templeton: So I am curious because the section is called amend parking 5
regulations and then the bullet – first bullet under it says reduce. And I hear that that is one of 6
the concerns with supporting this. I like the idea of amending and/or frequently updating and 7
maybe figuring out a formula over time like – but we have − as Commissioner Summa said, we 8
made a lot of adjustments recently. And we don’t know how – what impact that that is going to 9
be and we won’t know for about a year. So I think the idea of being flexible and having a regular 10
basis on which to reevaluate is intended meaning behind the title. And maybe the way point 1 11
is phrased is a bit presumptuous. So I wonder if that’s an area that we could modify and then 12
figure out how to proceed. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you. Commissioner Lu. 15
16
Commissioner Lu: I was just going to agree with Commissioner Templeton’s point that there is 17
some flexibility in – baked into bullet 2 where we would presumably find an appropriate 18
amount of parking and phase this and time this correctly. Personally, I do think reducing parking 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
minimums is a good idea and I generally through surveys and studies expect that number to go 1
down. But I’m also fine with a softer – slightly softer version of bullet point 1 here. 2
3
Chair Chang: Any other discussion? Would somebody like to make a motion? Like perhaps 4
Commissioner Templeton or Commissioner Lu could take a stab at making something that 5
might work better. 6
7
Commissioner Lu: I move to amend parking regulations on the basis of parking use surveys to 8
reset standards to appropriate levels based on actual need and demand. 9
10
Chair Chang: Do we have a second? 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Second. 13
14
Chair Chang: Further discussion? Commission – no. Commissioner Akin. 15
16
Commissioner Akin: So just to clarify, what’s the distinction between the motion and simply 17
forwarding the consultant’s recommendation without item – subitem number 1? 18
19
Commissioner Lu: No difference. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Thank you. 2
3
Commissioner Templeton: What I’m looking for is the people who spoke up against 11. Does 4
this meet – does removing point 1 meet your requirements? Is that something that would bring 5
you onboard or what do you think we still need? 6
7
Dan Wery: Commissioner, if I may, these are short items. They’re intended to be more direction 8
for future development and consideration. I think the idea is that in general the trend is that 9
parking requirements are going down as I mentioned in my presentation. It’s not – don’t take it 10
as an absolute you must reduce the parking requirements. Take’m together – and it’s kind of a 11
menu approach look at the rationale as well as the recommendations. Our recommendation is 12
we think that there’s room to reduce your parking requirements that will be more equitable 13
and fair and be constructive. If you find that that’s not the case, you don’t have to do it. But this 14
is just to get direction to the Commission or City Council and then direction back to your staff. 15
So don’t take’m so absolutely. 16
17
Commissioner Templeton: We’re pretty – Mr. Wery, we’re a pretty literal bunch here. So… 18
19
Dan Wery: [Inaudible 157:31]. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Templeton: …we love to wordsmith your work and I’m – I apologize because it’s 2
not a… 3
4
Dan Wery: Yeah. 5
6
Commissioner Templeton: …critique. 7
8
Dan Wery: These aren’t zoning amendments. These are not draft amendments. If you recall, 9
these started off as directions and strategies. And I think that’s still what this is. We tried to 10
make them more and more specific as we could. But again, I look at these as a menu. In 11
general, we’re working toward reducing excess parking and waste. That’s what part… 12
13
Chair Chang: Thank you… 14
15
Dan Wery: …of the rationale is. 16
17
Chair Chang: …Mr. Wery. So Commissioner Summa. 18
19
Commissioner Summa: Yeah. So no, it doesn’t help me to answer Commissioner Templeton’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
question at all being comfortable with this nor does it say – the statement that parking 1
requirements are going down because I don’t believe parking demands are going down at the 2
same time. And I think that you find a lot of people really concerned about that. The only way 3
you can convince me that parking demands are going down is with maybe motor vehicle or – 4
data. And I don’t think that’s true. I think people are desperately trying to find a place to put 5
cars in many parts of the city and they have been for a really long time and it’s going to get 6
harder. So I don’t think with State mandates – and I don’t think we should exacerbate that thing 7
for the people of Palo Alto and the businesses of Palo Alto. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. 10
11
Commissioner Templeton: We also have our – oh. I’ll raise my hand. Sorry. 12
13
Chair Chang: Go ahead, Commissioner Templeton. 14
15
Commissioner Templeton: Well we also have some goals for the city around reducing 16
[dependence 159:06] on motor vehicles. And so I think there’s some synergy ideas that work 17
between this suggestion or this menu item and some of our City’s stated goals. So I wonder, 18
Commissioner Summa, would you be interested in phrasing this with a contingency like if it’s 19
supported by data or if it’s supported by parking surveys, and then we have that point too as 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
well. But if there was a way we could talk about that, I think it would be beneficial for our 1
climate goals. Thanks. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner… 4
5
Commissioner Summa: Well owning a car doesn’t mean you have to use it for all of your trips 6
and all of your going to work and everything, but people really need cars. And no, it wouldn’t 7
make any difference. I think this is – I think it’s unnecessary to bundle voluntary city parking 8
option reduction for people when we are having so much mandated on us. I don’t think it helps 9
people. 10
11
Chair Chang: I got lights for Commissioner Reckdahl and then Commissioner Akin. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Well this is just for retail but I’m concerned that – okay. If you look at the 14
last two bullets, they’re like motherhood and apple pie. You shouldn’t – standards [need to be 15
160:34] based on actual demand. That makes total sense. All right. But the way this whole thing 16
is written, it has this spin of well we’re going to reduce this wasteful, underutilized parking. And 17
so I really want to be careful that we’re not misinterpreting our recommendation. If our 18
recommendation is just the last two bullets, then I support this. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin. 1
2
Commissioner Akin: I’m sorry. I need a clarification from Vice-Chair Reckdahl there at the last 3
two bullets on the rationale and justification side. 4
5
Chair Chang: There. 6
7
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Oh, I’m sorry. I’m looking at my… 8
9
Chair Chang: Packet. So I – the clarification. Can you please read out, Commissioner Reckdahl, 10
which are the two bullets… 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 13
14
Chair Chang: …that you would support? 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Under the rationale and justification, standards need to be based on actual 17
demand. That to me, I totally support. Standards do not need and should not accommodate all 18
potential demand. I think what they’re saying there is that you can’t necessarily do worst on 19
worst on worst and ex-, base your parking on that. At least, that’s the way I read that. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thanks. That helps clarify what I was about to say. Yes, it’s clear. I’m 2
really close on this. Thank you for the phrasing by the way, Commissoner Lu. Once the 3
mandatory reduce the minimum parking requirements is gone, then conduct parking use 4
surveys is a common sense approach that needs to be taken. This has to be done with exquisite 5
care because it has been gamed in the past and it’s important for everybody to understand that 6
that’s the history we’re dealing with. Standards need to be based on actual demand. That has 7
never been the case. And you might push back and say that standards need to be based on 8
predicted demand and make a good case for that position. That doesn’t mean it has to be worst 9
case but it does mean that it has to be a good-faith effort to predict what demand will arise in 10
order to avoid the negative consequences of failing to meet that demand. Standards do not 11
need to and should not accommodate all potential demand. Well the parking will have to go 12
somewhere and if the standards don’t accommodate that demand, at least to a reasonably high 13
degree of probability, then there will be a shift of the burden for the consequences of parking 14
from one group to another. And once that happens, it’s very hard to undo. And that’s precisely 15
what we’re seeing in Evergreen park right now and is the history of what was happening around 16
the downtown area. AB 2097 decides a lot of this for us on certain uses but not all. So I think 17
we’re obliged to be thoughtful and considerate about how we accommodate those other uses. 18
So I’m right on the edge on this. As stated, I find it supportable but the devil will be in the 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
details. It will be so easy for this to be undone for the intent to be undone that I just want to 1
make sure that that message gets carried if the recommendation is forwarded. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu, can you restate your motion so that we know exactly how it was 4
stated? 5
6
Commissioner Lu: Effectively move recommendation 11 without bullet point 1. 7
8
Commissioner Templeton: Did you receive a second? 9
10
Chair Chang: I don’t know. 11
12
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: I second it. 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. 17
18
Commissioner Templeton: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Additional discussion? Commissioner Akin, I’d like to ask you is – as stated, is that 1
motion clear to you? 2
3
Commissioner Akin: Oh, yes, it’s clear. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. 6
7
Commissioner Akin: That’s well stated. 8
9
Chair Chang: All right. I don’t see any other lights, so let’s take a vote. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 12
13
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: No. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 12
13
Chair Chang: Abstain. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 16
17
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 5-1-1. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Yeah, I’m going to speak to my abstention. I just – I think it goes without saying 2
that we should be conducting parking use service as a basis to reset standards. I’m just not sure 3
that we necessarily need to do that any time soon. I know this is a medium-term item, but I’m 4
just not sure it’s a priority right now and I have little faith that we can do it with the care and 5
precision that needs to be done. And so I’m just concerned about this kind of getting batched 6
this way and missing the message. So that’s why I abstained. Commissioner Summa? 7
8
Commissioner Summa: Oh, speak to my no? 9
10
Chair Chang: Yes. 11
12
Commissioner Summa: I voted no on this because I already said it. Because this shifts the 13
burden of not having adequate parking. Even if you fully don’t use your car every day and are 14
contributing to the kind of greenhouse gas reductions and lack of automobile use that we are 15
moving towards in the city, you still need a place to put a car, so you can have a car sometimes. 16
And all – there’s so many State pressures to do this and what if you’re – if your − if the 17
demand surveys are done honestly, they could result in a higher demand, which is something 18
you didn’t consider, I don’t think. But we have already seen – I mean a decade ago, there were 19
parts of the city where there was multi-family housing primarily over by Colorado near East 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Bayshore where there was not one spot on the street available at night – late at night when I 1
went and surveyed. And this is – we’ve known this for a long time. We’re digging a bigger hole 2
and we’re shifting the burden of unlivable consequences onto residents and small business 3
owners of the city. And I don’t think that’s the right way to go. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. Second to last recommendation. This is also about amending parking 6
regulations to implement the 2097 exemption of minimum parking requirements within a half 7
mile of transit for clarity. And I think we just had one person who wanted to make a comment 8
about this one. Yeah. 9
10
Commissioner Templeton: Can staff please show the correct slide? 11
12
Chair Chang: Oh, sorry. I couldn’t understand what you just said. Oh, yes. Could staff please 13
advance the slide? Here we go. It’s number 12 that we’re speaking of right now. It’s just about 14
implementing AB 2097. Go ahead, Commissioner Summa. 15
16
Commissioner Summa: Thank you, Chair. I just have the same problem I had with AB 2097 that I 17
stated before, which I don’t – obviously, we have to uphold State law if we’re going to codify it 18
into our code; however, I wish that we would do it taking full advantage of the flexibility that is 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
built into the law regarding exempting certain areas and that it doesn’t apply to ADA and EVSE 1
parking. 2
3
Chair Chang: Are there additional comments? All right. Let’s do a motion on this one. I’ll take a 4
stab at it, which is to – I move… 5
6
Jonathan Lait: I’m sorry, Chair, to interrupt but just – I wanna make sure that we’re consistent. 7
The Commission has actually taken a position on this. So – and I believe this reflects the 8
Commission’s prior motion. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay, great. So then, do we need to even do anything on this? 11
12
Jonathan Lait: I don’t know if you need to because you’ve already acted on this and we’ve 13
written a report on it. But if you wanted just for the sake of having everything buttoned up, if 14
you just move the recommendation, I think that… 15
16
Chair Chang: No, I think let’s save the time right now. 17
18
Jonathan Lait: Okay. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: And let’s just – because I think when we – when the Commission voted on this, we 1
had all sorts of caveats… 2
3
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. Okay. 4
5
Chair Chang: …and so let’s just skip this one and refer… 6
7
Jonathan Lait: To prior [inaudible 170:05]. 8
9
Chair Chang: …to prior Commission action. 10
11
Jonathan Lait: Okay. Thank you. 12
13
Chair Chang: All right. Fantastic. So then we’re on the last one here. Applause. Again, amending 14
parking regulations. This is number 14, suggesting that the city unbundle parking from the price 15
of rent. And I’m just going to go right out there and say let’s just skip this one entirely because 16
it’s not really related to retail. 17
18
Commissioner Summa: I second that non-motion suggestion. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Lu: It’s also just State law, so… 1
2
Chair Chang: Right. It’s State law. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: …what can we… 5
6
Chair Chang: So let’s just… 7
8
Commissioner Lu: Yeah, exactly. 9
10
Chair Chang: So do we need to make a motion on this? I’ve got a process agreement from all 11
the Commissioners that we are not – that we would desire not to take a vote on this. And the – 12
and Mr. Wery suggested it’s okay if we skip this one. 13
14
Jonathan Lait: I think it’d be cleaner if you made a vote just to reject the – I don’t know. Mr. 15
Yang, do you want to – do you have an opinion on this? 16
17
Albert Yang: Yeah, I think it’s fine either way. It would probably be cleaner to have a motion to 18
not take a position on this. 19
20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. I move that we do not take a position on this at this time because it is 1
unrelated to the current agendized item. 2
3
Commissioner Summa: Second. 4
5
Chair Chang: Discussion? Please take the vote, Ms. Dao. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 8
9
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 12
13
Commissoner Hechtman: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 16
17
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 18
19
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Templeton? 4
5
Commissioner Templeton: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 12
13
Chair Chang: Yes. 14
15
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 7-0. 16
17
Chair Chang: Okay, with that we conclude this item. Before we move on to the next item, we’re 18
going to take a 7-minute break. My apologies to the members of the public who are stuck 19
waiting. Thank you. [There are 180:44] three in our agenda, which is a study session to discuss 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
updates to the Stream Corridor Protection Ordinance. Could we have the staff presentation 1
please? 2
3
Study Session 4
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 5
6
7
3. Study Session to Discuss Updates to the Stream Corridor Protection Ordinance (Palo 8
Alto Municipal Code (PAMC) Section 18.40.140). 9
10
Senior Planner Kelly Cha: Yes, good evening Chair, Vice-Chair, Commissioners. My name is Kelly 11
Cha. I’m going to introduce… 12
13
Chair Chang: Speak closer. 14
15
Kelly Cha: Hi. Good evening. My name is Kelly Cha. I’m going to introduce Kevin Gardiner from 16
Good City Company and we also have Nicholas Hamilton and Jim Martin on line to help out. 17
And I will share the presentation. 18
19
Contract Planner Kevin Gardiner: Thank you. Good evening Commissioners. Pleasure to meet 20
you this evening. My name is Kevin Gardiner. I am a contract planner with Good City Company 21
here in Redwood City right up the road. And we have been working with the staff on the Stream 22
Protection Ordinance update. Next please. For − the purpose of this session is to get direction 23
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
as we craft the ordinance and make up updates to particularly answer some of the policy 1
decisions that we’ve been coming up with as a team and then staff will use that feedback to 2
develop a draft ordinance for PTC recommendations. We’ll go over the – where we’ve been so 3
far, some talk about stream conditions, comprehensive plans and policies, some features of the 4
existing ordinance, some comparative analysis of what other municipalities have done, and 5
then we have a series of questions for the Planning and Transportation Commission. We started 6
the project in January of 2024, started doing stakeholder outreach almost immediately in 7
February, had a community information session in March, existing conditions report came out 8
in July of this year, and here we are at the PTC study session in August. We hope to come back 9
to you with a ordinance next month at the end of the month and then from there, the plan 10
would be to go to City Council. Very quickly, over the – there’s a variety of different creek and 11
stream conditions. One clarification I’ll make and we mentioned this in the staff report, for 12
purposes of this ordinance update we’re using the term “creek and stream” interchangeably. 13
And that’s – it's a simplification. But on the one hand, the comprehensive plan uses the term 14
creek. The ordinance uses the term stream. For our purposes, we’ll keep it to stream just 15
because that’s consistent with the ordinance − but in case people get confused. Next please. 16
Here is a quick overview of the different stream conditions and how it’s pertinent to the work 17
ahead. Here’s an example of natural creek, west of Foothill Expressway. From the air, it’s often 18
hard to even see the creeks because they’re covered in riparian vegetation. Next please. And 19
then east of Foothill Expressway, there are also natural creeks. This is an ariel view of San 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Francisquito Creek. And now granted, it does have some elements that have been engineered, 1
so this is again a simplification but generally it has the characteristics of a natural creek in terms 2
of the earth and banks, the riparian vegetation, and such. Next please. And there’s hardened 3
channelized creeks. This is a photo of Matadero Creek, so Matadero, Adobe, and Barron, 4
particularly east of El Camino Real, have this channelized characteristic, and we’ve added the 5
term hardened just to really clarify we’re talking about concrete-lined channels. Next. So the 6
update of this ordinance has been a priority for the Council for the last three years, so we’re 7
excited to be working on it. And the direction comes from the 2017 Comprehensive Plan. The 8
staff report outlines different comprehensive plan goals, policies, and programs. So we won’t 9
go over those here. We do have’m as backup if there are questions later. Next. Looking at the 10
existing ordinance − and we’ll skip quickly to some diagrams in a second but want to mention 11
that there are − a big part of this going back to the original ordinance was direction from the 12
Valley Water Resources Protection Collaborative’s guidelines and standards for land uses near 13
streams. For shorthand, we will call those the Collaborative’s guidelines if we refer to them 14
later in this presentation. Next. So this is a diagram of − now obviously, this isn’t a real creek. 15
It’s showing a channelized bank on one side and natural on the other, but it’s meant to kind of 16
encompass a lot of things at once. The current ordinance has a 20-foot slope stability area, 17
which really acts as a setback. Not much of anything is allowed to be built in that area and it’s 18
intended to maintain the integrity of the creek bank. Next. Then there’s also the stream side 19
review area and that’s 50 feet pretty much anywhere it’s located. And I think that’s been a 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
source of confusion as to is it a setback. Is it not? What is a review area? So what it is is it’s a 1
trigger that there’s additional review required within that 50-foot area, but my understanding is 2
it's not always clear what that’s supposed to mean given it’s not a true setback with a no-build 3
zone. Next. So we’ve looked at examples from other jurisdictions around the Bay area. A lot of 4
jurisdictions don’t have standards at all, so we’ve focused on the ones that do. And you can see 5
a cluster. Some of them just have one standard. For example, San Carlos is just a flat 25-foot 6
setback. Same with Berkeley. Then others, for example, Fremont have a range either 20 feet in 7
the urbanized areas or 200 feet up in the hilly areas. I should add that Oakland has – it’s actually 8
more complicated than the 20 feet we’re showing. That one gets into different tiers and 9
actually gets quite complex, but the point is that there is good company in having this range 10
and this dual approach to the different types of setbacks. Next. So I won’t read through these 11
but these are the questions that we’ll be asking. On the general topics are applicability, 12
exemptions if any, setback distances, stream conditions, and deviation processes if any. Next 13
please. And then each of these slides goes over the staff recommendations and the different 14
alternatives, so I’ll walk through these. We can also go back through these slides during the 15
deliberations if that’s helpful. For the first question over which types of development and land 16
uses should be subject to the updated ordinance, the recommendation is to be the status quo, 17
which is it applies to pretty much everything with the exception of some what are considered 18
minor, single-family home projects. Those would be ministerial projects, building permits, 19
things that don’t require discretionary review. Alternatives would be either more expansive or 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
less expansive to either apply this to everything without any kind of exceptions or to more 1
narrowly focus on multi-family and commercial development as opposed to single family. Next. 2
I’ll admit – I’ll also note there’s a lot of overlap between all of these, so if you have a Venn 3
diagram, there’s intersections everywhere because a lot of overlapping things. So this is similar 4
in that should single-family home districts be exempted from the regulations. This is trying to 5
answer a question from the comprehensive plan that it suggests looking at possible exemptions 6
for single-family properties. So it’s trying to articulate that a little better in terms of how to put 7
that in the ordinance. The recommendation is to exempt properties in the R1, R2, and RMD 8
zoning districts that are in the channelized urban streams east of Foothill Expressway, such as 9
the photo we saw of Matadesco or Matadero Creek, Baron Creek, Adobe Creek. And an 10
alternative would be to also exempt properties along natural streams, so that would include 11
San Francisquito Creek or another option would be to exempt entire zoning districts which 12
would include all stream conditions. Next please. For setback distances, the comprehensive 13
plan talks about 150 feet for properties that are west of Foothill Expressway and then it says to 14
look at distances but doesn’t give a distance for properties to the east. So staff is 15
recommending a 150-foot setback consistent with the comp plan for those properties west of 16
Foothill Expressway and then east of Foothill Expressway, a 40-foot setback. That is a 17
recommendation from the Collaborative’s guidelines for urbanized areas, so kind of building 18
upon that guidance. That’s where that recommendation is coming from. A more flexible 19
alternative would be to still maintain that 20-foot slope stability protection area because that’s 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
really integral to the health of the creek bank but allow a little more flexibility beyond that. And 1
then another alternative is noting that it’s not necessarily a one size fits all. Look at some 2
variable setbacks particularly for the properties east of Foothill Expressway and the urbanized 3
area that could be based on either types of creeks or size of lots. Four out of five, so our next 4
question is should urban streams have riparian vegetation requirements? So again, we’re 5
talking here about the urban streams that are west of Foothill Expressway and east of hi-, sorry. 6
I’m reversing my directions. East of Foothill Expressway, west of Highway 101, so the urbanized 7
parts of the city. Should riparian vegetation be required? And the staff recommends that 8
riparian be required along natural creeks but not along channelized streams, so going back to 9
the photo of Barron Creek, it would not be recommended to introduce new riparian vegetation 10
along a new concrete channel but it would where there’s a natural creek bed. Alternatively, it 11
could be suggested to – start introducing riparian vegetation in all circumstances. Then last but 12
not least is the deviation process. Speaking to the one size doesn’t fit all, there’s always − no 13
matter what rule, there’s going to be something that comes up that people haven’t thought of. 14
So we’ve been looking at the different pathways that are in the code currently for asking for 15
either minor exceptions or major exceptions and staff is recommending using the existing 16
framework. It could lend itself to both minor and major deviations with the individual review 17
and home improvement exceptions process working with minor variations. And then if 18
somebody wants to do something really significantly different, that would be in the same realm 19
as a variance and go through that same kind of process. An alternative would be to kind of table 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the variation – the variance piece and just only allow minor variations and call it a day. So these 1
are the discussion questions. First, we can take questions on – I know this is a lot of information 2
all coming very quickly, so we can go back through these slides and the slides can also be used 3
for your discussion. And I do also want to also mention that the biologist, James Martin, is on 4
line, from Environmental Collaborative, so if there are questions related to particularly the 5
habitat and natural factors, he can answer those. 6
7
Chair Chang: Great. Thank you so much, Mr. Gardiner. So I just wanted to remind members of 8
the public that the PTC has a policy now of not taking new speakers 5 minutes after the staff 9
presentation, so if you think you’re going to want to speak, please make sure you raise your 10
hand or turn in your speaker card. So first, we’re going to have clarifying questions from the 11
Commission. Oh, and one more note. Process note. Commissioner Templeton had to leave, so 12
we are down to 6 Commissioners right now but we still have a quorum. All right. So let’s hear 13
from Commissioner Akin, then Reckdahl, then Hechtman. 14
15
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. We have quite a menu of options for applicability and 16
exemptions. I was wondering if you had estimated how many existing R1, R2, and RMD 17
properties violate each that already exist − violate each of those proposed regulations. So these 18
are places that I anticipate if they had some development project, then they might have to go 19
through the exemption process. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kevin Gardiner: Sure. Well one thing I want to clarify and I think the comp plan notes this is this 2
is really intended to apply to new construction, so there’s most likely a lot of existing uses that 3
would not comply with these regulations. So for the most part, the recommendation is to leave 4
those alone unless they’re wanting to expand closer to the creek. So particularly on the 5
urbanized parts of the city, there would be a substantial number. We may have numbers in that 6
existing conditions report, but the point is to not try to penalize people that had a house built 7
50 years ago that would no longer comply but also to not increase the non-conformity. 8
9
Commissioner Akin: So the deviation process might be used only if there’s a closer approach to 10
the creek – to the stream? 11
12
Kevin Gardiner: That’s right. 13
14
Chair Chang: So… 15
16
Commissioner Akin: Okay. Thank you. 17
18
Chair Chang: …I have a clarify-, I just want to piggyback on that because it’s the same topic. So – 19
and also because I’m getting things confused with the other two items that – the Bird Safety 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and the Dark Skies. So Bird Safety and Dark Skies specifically had applicability that said like with 1
a major remodel. And that’s not what you’re proposing here. It’s only if it’s any closer to the 2
stream. 3
4
Kevin Gardiner: That would be the staff recommendation and – yeah, they are related and 5
we’ve tried to kind of coordinate these two ordinances so they talk to each other. But in terms 6
of at least the Stream Corridor Protection, it seems like the real focus is on the building 7
footprint and not further encroaching towards the creek. The – there may be other concerns 8
related to Bird Safety or Dark Sky that may not be aligned with that but that’s partly – we – 9
we’ll have the opportunity to make sure we’re not at cross-purposes with that ordinance as 10
well. 11
12
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. Commissioner Reckdahl. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So why is the [curb 196:43] code exempt single stories but not second-15
story additions? What’s the – is it just – it was a convenient – whether it’s a discretionary 16
review and that’s… 17
18
Kelly Cha: I’ll try to. [Inaudible 197:05] the existing [inaudible 197:08]. Yeah, for streams. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kevin Gardiner: So let me − let – I’ll take a look at that code section and try to get back to you 1
on that. I – it – I don’t know if it’s related to the IR process that we have and how those are two 2
− discretionary reviews for two stories. I just have to take a look at the code section to see 3
what… 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 6
7
Kevin Gardiner: If that makes sense. 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. I could see it maybe it was like well these have to go through 10
discretionary review anyway, so let’s apply this. As opposed to the other option would be the 11
second story has more susceptibility for some reason, so we want to be more careful. And 12
that’s why we want to hold it to higher standard. I don’t know. 13
14
Kevin Gardiner: Yeah, let us take a look at that… 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 17
18
Kevin Gardiner: …section. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So then I also have a couple other questions. We talk about like R1s west 1
of Foothill but I don’t think Palo Alto has any streamside R1s west of Foothill, do we? 2
3
Kevin Gardiner: I think it’s used generically in this context to refer to the open – to the real 4
estate, the RE zones and the other sections but I could be wrong. 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So like, for example, on Packet Page 14, down at the bottom they talk 7
about R1, R2, RMD. They don’t talk about either open space or RE. So I… 8
9
Kevin Gardiner: The intent would be to – so that – yeah, it’s an [inaudible 198:43] in terms of it 10
– it’s really meant to capture single-family properties. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 13
14
Kevin Gardiner: So the – yeah. The exact zoning designations are not entirely accurate there. 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. And then finally exemptions. We’re talking about like, for example, 17
east of 101, so on the bayside, we’d have 150-foot setback but along Adobe, there’s a parcel 18
that whose width is only 150 feet. So that means that you couldn’t do anything with that parcel. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kevin Gardiner: I mean that would be a case in the deviations where that would be kind of a 1
classic variance case where there’s something truly unique about a parcel that applying the 2
standards would inhibit the enjoyment of that parcel. So that would be a case for deviation. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: And so what would be the hoops? Would this just be a director’s review 5
where they filled a paperwork and you say yes or is there some complex… 6
7
Kevin Gardiner: It would − at least what’s proposed by staff, it would follow the variance 8
process. And I don’t know if staff wants to further elaborate on what that process is but it 9
would be the higher order. It’s a – it would be considered a significant variation, but there 10
would be a process where it would have findings and the findings would be that the parcel is 11
unique in such a way that the application of those standards would inhibit it from being 12
developed. 13
14
Chair Chang: Can staff clarify that if it went through the variance process, would it have to come 15
before like the PTC or is this a director-level decision? 16
17
Kelly Cha: It is that – I believe it is with PTC. No? Variances? 18
19
Jonathan Lait: Sorry, Chair. It’s getting a little late… 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Amy French: I can… 2
3
Jonathan Lait: …for me to − Ms. French, are you on? 4
5
Chair Chang: Oh, Ms. French… 6
7
Jonathan Lait: Yeah, great. 8
9
Chair Chang: …go ahead. 10
11
Amy French: Yes, I’m on. I was answering the other question about there is an R1 zone west of 12
Foothill, R1 2000. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, but all those west, none of’m are along the stream, so… 15
16
Amy French: Okay All right. Sorry if I misheard that. Yeah, so for the variance process, it would 17
only go to the Planning Commission if it was requested for hearing. 18
19
Chair Chang: Understood. Thank you. That’s helpful. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So that means that they wouldn’t necessarily have to go through PTC? 2
Okay. 3
4
Amy French: They wouldn’t have to unless requested. 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. That’s all. Thank you. 7
8
Chair Chang: All right. Commissioner Hechtman. 9
10
Commissioner Hechtman: Thank you. So bottom of the Packet Page 11, the current ordinance 11
defines the streamside review area as… 12
13
Female: What page? 14
15
Commissoner Hechtman: Packet Page 11. Properties abutting stream or located within 50 feet 16
of top of bank except properties separated from the stream by a public street. And I was 17
wondering if staff knew why we would differentiate public streets from private streets. And not 18
that we have a lot of private streets − but my impression is when − particularly when you get on 19
the other side of Foothill, there are what are effectively private streets serving multiple 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
properties. I don’t know if any of those are streamside but I’m wondering if there was an intent 1
in limiting this – the – in the existing ordinance to public streets only. Because obviously a 2
public – a private street would have the same effect on basically separating or being kind of a 3
demarcation line of – for wildlife in the creek corridor. 4
5
Kelly Cha: We would have to actually look into that intent. We are uncertain right now. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. So this is a study session, so I guess my ask is that as we move 8
forward, take a look at that, and see if there’s a good reason to keep it. If so, great. If not, think 9
about broadening that street definition there. 10
11
Chair Chang: Thank you, Commissioner. Seeing no other lights right now, I’m going to ask my 12
questions. So on Packet Page 18 where we’re talking about riparian vegetation requirements 13
applying only to natural – like relatively natural streams, there’s – the last line says that 14
requiring riparian vegetation for generalized streams for example that approach or – of streams 15
[inaudible 203:36] might be burdensome to property owners. And I wanted to understand 16
more about why it would be burdensome. Is it just because they might not be aware that 17
they’re next to a stream or is it that it’s so difficult or expensive to have riparian vegetation as 18
landscaping? 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kevin Gardiner: I think the burdensome reference is in recognizing that this is an underground 1
stream and either a pipe or a box culvert, what the likelihood of that stream being daylighted if 2
it’s not daylighted or if there’s not plans to have it daylighted, then it’s creating a setback for a 3
condition that may never happen. I think that’s really what burdensome language is meant to… 4
5
Chair Chang: But it’s a – you mean a setback with respect to vegetation though because that’s 6
what this item is about. 7
8
Kevin Gardiner: Right. I mean in this case it would be – yeah. I think if it’s strictly vegetation, 9
that would be less burdensome. I think it’s more – yeah. If there’s not a creek and then you’re 10
planning riparian vegetation but the creek doesn’t come in terms of like daylighting it. 11
12
Chair Chang: That makes sense. 13
14
Kevin Gardiner: Then – I mean there’s nothing wrong with riparian vegetation in absence of a 15
creek but it’s not necessarily meeting the intent of what the… 16
17
Chair Chang: Well… 18
19
Kevin Gardiner: …ordinance is supposed to be doing. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Right. So I understand that but then I guess my question is like so the staff 2
proposal is for like a channelized stream, it also wouldn’t apply. But if I think about streams 3
being like a corridor, right? That corridor is not just the part that’s in the water but also 4
adjacent to it for birds, for things that might be benefiting, so I’m trying to understand sort of 5
the level of burden quite frankly for the requirement that everything within 50 feet – I’m 6
making up numbers now. Everything within 50 feet have riparian landscaping, right? Or the 7
requirement that there’s not an evasive species put in there. Like how burdensome is that? Do 8
we – are there lists of it? Like readily available lists and are these plants readily available? Are 9
they more expensive? And if you don’t know the answer, that’s fine. But I’d like to understand 10
that and I would be curious to hear from the biologist, Mr. Martin, whether there’s any value to 11
something like that. 12
13
Kevin Gardiner: Sure. I’d say in terms of a burden, it’s – I mean it’s not a huge burden, so I’d say 14
it’s a minor burden. I think if − as you mentioned riparian vegetation has [inaudible 206:37] to 15
have value, it may be limited if there’s not the actual water to go with it in terms of the types of 16
wildlife that could benefit. But as you mentioned, birds and different – so it’s not that it would 17
have no value but it’s limited. If Mr. Martin also wants to add anything to that, I’m happy to 18
hear from him [inaudible 207:02]. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jim Martin: Sure. Thanks, Kevin. Hi, this is Jim Martin, the consulting biologist. So those are 1
great questions and to the point about a reach that’s culverted, technically, what you plant on 2
top of it is no longer considered riparian vegetation. There needs to be a direct connection to 3
those waters and they’re now in a pipe. So all – riparian vegetation is supported by that surface 4
or ground water, so there’s no direct connection there. But there may instances where a reach 5
has been culverted but is near an open space or a reach that is unculverted and the idea 6
supplementing, even if it’s an existing culverted reach with riparian vegetation or native 7
complementary vegetation, is not a bad thing. And I agree with and understand your point 8
about the connectivity. Even if the creek has been compromised by past improvements doesn’t 9
mean there wouldn’t be or couldn’t be a benefit to try to memorialize that previous 10
connection. But I think back to the larger encumbrance and setback of – and the intent of this 11
part of the question. When you go and take out an existing culvert, there’s a large footprint 12
that is required to accommodate the new bed, the banks, and the development of slope 13
stability setbacks from that restored reach. And you’ve also got to consider the flood flow 14
implications. If you’re trying to establish vegetation in that restored channel, that’s already, in 15
all likelihood, has some development if it’s been culverted. There are a lot of factors that have 16
to be considered. It’s great to encourage daylighting of culverted reaches where that’s feasible 17
and making sure as part of future development that appropriate footprint is available to 18
accomplish that. But it is a large constraint to recognize the future potential for restoring a 19
channel that’s currently culverted. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. I have a second unrelated question. This is regarding the report 2
and there are some figures that showed the differences between where streams are mapped 3
by the county, I believe, versus the city or it was… 4
5
Jim Martin: Yeah, Santa Clara Valley Water District. 6
7
Chair Chang: Right. So how, if at all, is the ordinance going to address that issue? Because… 8
9
Jim Martin: Sure. 10
11
Chair Chang: …people might not realize that they’re next to a stream or which one are we going 12
to… 13
14
Jim Martin: Sure. 15
16
Chair Chang: …go with? 17
18
Jim Martin: Yeah. So that’s part of what we’re pointing out in the existing conditions report. 19
There’s varying information, especially to the west of Foothill where you have large 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
undeveloped properties and the data isn’t consistent between what is in the City Mapping, GIS 1
layer, and what the district has. And we used a couple really important examples there that 2
show existing footprint of buildings and on one mapping source, we’ve got a drainage on one 3
side of the house and on the other mapping source, we’ve got a drainage on the other side of 4
the house. So the point there is really is to point out those discrepancies and the importance of 5
verifying if there’s an applicant who wants to do something on their property, it’s just really 6
crucial that we know accurately where that stream is… 7
8
Chair Chang: So I guess… 9
10
Jim Martin: …and… 11
12
Chair Chang: …my question is this issue was raised, does the ordinance address it and how does 13
it address it? Because I don’t think it was captured in any of the five areas that we are asked to 14
look at, and I want to make sure that it is addressed. 15
16
Jim Martin: Right. Yeah, that’s part of the verification process. It’s in the [inaudible 211:27] 17
definitely addressed in the current ord-, in existing ordinance. But it’s something that is on our 18
radar screen and will be considered as part of the language for the updated ordinance. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Okay. Thank you. And Commissioner Summa, questions. 1
2
Commissioner Summa: I just have one left. And I was wondering if there is any data available on 3
the use of species of channelized creeks. In other words, are channelized creeks important… 4
5
Jim Martin: Sure. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Yeah. 8
9
Jim Martin: Yeah, they are. The challenge there is their primary function when – for flood 10
control purposes. That’s why and how they got channelized over the past decades. So the big 11
limitation there is anything that could impede or slow down storm flows. Because then you get 12
those flows backing up and flooding the adjacent properties. So the idea of establishing woody, 13
riparian vegetation in those channelized reaches is unrealistic without a more exhaustive effort 14
that includes widening that channel, obviously doing the analysis to support it, but widening 15
the channel and securing currently private property to accomplish that over large parts of the 16
city. 17
18
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. And how about along the creek and the riparian corridor? 19
How im-, it seems to me like those places, not the creek necessarily – although I do see a lot of 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
channelized creeks providing habitat, especially for birds and [inaudible 213:26]. 1
2
Jim Martin: Sure. 3
4
Commissioner Summa: At least they’re using it. It may not be living there. But how… 5
6
Jim Martin: Yeah. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: …important is the top of the creek bed riparian area [inaudible 213:37] 9
native species? 10
11
Jim Martin: Yeah. To your point, those – even those channelized reaches, a lot of them have 12
emergent vegetation, maybe a little of a cattail or water crest, other things that are important 13
and they are used for movement by mammals and by lots of birds and foraging for birds. It 14
really – the importance of the top of bank and beyond or even the banks themselves really 15
depends on – and varies throughout the city. A lot of those channelized reaches have flood 16
control maintenance roads right along the top of bank and they really limit what can be done, 17
and frankly, the habitat value beyond the top of bank. But there’s some locations where you 18
may have improved access on one side but the other side is still natural or semi-natural or has 19
remnant woody vegetation at the top. And in those instances, that is important part of an 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
existing habitat condition that we will want to capture and retain as part of any future 1
modification. 2
3
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Thank you for that. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. I see no other clarifying questions, so we’ll move to public comment. Ms. 6
Dao, how many comment cards have we received? 7
8
Veronica Dao: For this item, I have one in person and two on Zoom. 9
10
Chair Chang: Okay. 11
12
Veronica Dao: So first in person is from Shani Kleinhaus. 13
14
PUBLIC COMMENTS 15
Shani Kleinhaus: Thank you, Chair Chang and Commissioners. My name is Shani Kleinhaus. I’m 16
the environmental advocate for Santa Clara Valley Audubon Society. I’m a resident of Palo Alto 17
and I’m on the PRC but I do not speak for the PRC at all. I’m really glad to see this moving 18
forward. I worked on the policies still when it was the City’s and Advisory Committee for the 19
comprehensive plan. And so finally seeing it moving forward is great. A few comments to some 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
of the things and maybe I’ll tell you a little story first. A few years ago, the director of planning 1
in the City of San Jose threw their Envision 2030 onto like − threw it to me and said, “Here is the 2
book of conflicts.” I think I’ve seen that so many times since. And I think here there are some of 3
those coming through. You want to provide a good policy for the creeks. You also need to 4
consider a lot of the people who live next to the creeks and so on. So I would say always use the 5
widest riparian corridors or setbacks that you can. And I still have – I inherited from [Trish 6
Mulvey 216:51] boxes and boxes of materials from that Collaborative that she participated in 7
Valley Water and it’s full of compromises. They have so many compromises. At the end, they 8
can do something that was definitely not [optimal 217:07]. So I just wanted to say that. 9
Setbacks are important. The other thing I wanted to mention about the riparian vegetation and 10
the creeks that are channelized or not, we tend to look at riparian vegetation and we look at 11
the most developed canopy that we can but there is value to those ephemeral ecosystems that 12
come and go, especially in creeks. There’s all kinds of creatures that depend on that water that 13
is there and then isn’t and is not very permanent. There are a lot of species that are ephemeral 14
and disappeared because of that. Because humans don’t like ephemeral things and changing 15
things. We like to see things pretty stable. But I’m not suggesting that every urbanized concrete 16
creek should be preserved or restored, but I think we need to look at the banks as an 17
opportunity for native plants even if they’re not riparian plants because the water is not too far 18
for the trees to get to. You can actually plant things that are more water-thirsty than you would 19
in other places. And you could consider native plants and trees and shrubs that would provide 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the connectivity, which by the way is in the parks and rec master plan if you want to look at 1
that one and see that the creeks are planned as pollinator corridors and [so on 218:31]and bird 2
habitat. Thank you. 3
4
Veronica Dao: Next is Winter Dellenbach. 5
6
Winter Dellenbach: Again. So I feel really strongly about this. So I live near Matadero Creek and 7
I was really extremely involved when the VA once again had a toxic spill in the – in our creek. 8
The HAZMAT, fire department people said it was the largest toxic spill in 20 years in Palo Alto. 9
That was what about 3 or 4 years ago? So Matadero Creek, all through my neighborhood and 10
west and – forms one border − long border of Bol Park – is a wild creek and it’s year-around 11
creek. It only dries up just before it gets to El Camino and then as soon as it rains, it’s a raging 12
creek. And I mean really raging. I watch our teenagers take kayaks and innertubes and jump in 13
when that river is moving. They’ll go as far up into west of Bol Park and then ride it down. And I 14
don’t recommend that but I – the point is this is a serious creek. It’s a wild creek and it supports 15
a lot of biodiversity. There needs to be as wide a setback possible applying to as many types of 16
residences and other properties as possible. I don’t care whether it’s multi-family. I don’t care 17
whether it’s single family. This – we support so much biodiversity by this ecosystem of riparian 18
[quarters 220:26]. It’s just not the water. It’s the area around a creek. And if we’re serious 19
about our 2030 climate goals and sustainability goals, which this city is committed to, we have 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to be protecting our creeks. I can go extremely often up to Bol Park up the creek and it’s – I’ve 1
seen 24 ducks all at the same time. Mallow ducks there. There’s often ducks, egrets. We had 2
two adorable muskrats. Nesting birds in the spring all over the place. It's just – it just supports a 3
huge amount of wildlife and birds and has fish. It even has fish in the creek. And this for me is 4
about protecting the creek. It is not about, “Oh, we wouldn’t want to do anything that could 5
possibly infringe upon developers.” And yes, riparian-friendly plants, you bet, to support this 6
ecosystem. When creek side, their present plan is to build 10 feet in places from the creek and 7
they straddle the creek with over 400 dwellings or hotel rooms. That’s the plan right now. 8
Matadero Creek. This is just infeasible. Thank you. 9
10
Chair Chang: Thank you. 11
12
Veronica Dao: Next is Linda Ruthruff. 13
14
Linda Ruthruff: Yes. 15
16
Chair Chang: Hi, Linda. 17
18
Linda Ruthruff: Hi. I’m Linda Ruthruff. I’m on the board of the local chapter of the California 19
Native Plant Society. Our riparian corridors are the last refuge for many of our plants, animals, 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
birds, and pollinators. They need to be protected. They need to be protected from heavy metal 1
and fertilizer runoff, from encroachment and channelizing, [inaudible 222:35] and from invasive 2
species. Riparian vegetation is important along the entire corridor. Seeds travel. Vegetation 3
along the concretized part of the stream should not be vegetation that could invade the natural 4
vegetation further down the creek. So it’s not just important to specify riparian plants along the 5
natural areas; it’s also important along the concretized areas. I think that minimal variations 6
should be allowed. Once one project is given a pass, future developers will expect their own 7
variations. I think that you need to make strong regulations. The streams also need to be 8
protected from light spillage. Light at night impacts the development of plants and the insects 9
that use them, putting them out of sync with each other, and causing a loss of pollination or 10
loss of the insects developing. And insects, water, and vegetation are really the building blocks, 11
the basis of the entire ecosystem. I urge you to create as large a setback as could feasibly be 12
possible. There’s so much that can happen when the banks are not stabilized, when there’s not 13
enough room for the plants, for the roots, and protection from people overusing the area. So I 14
would really urge you to create large protection zones along the entire creek. It’s kind of like a 15
railroad. You can’t have things go through the railroad if some of the tracks are missing. You 16
can’t just say, “Well further down, it’s fine.” So you need to have the whole stream be in good 17
condition, so that it can support the wildlife it’s intended to. Thank you. 18
19
Chair Chang: Thank you. All right. So that’s it for public comments. Let’s move on and bring it 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
back to the Commission. If we – so my understanding is that staff would like us to opine on five 1
different topics. So we – my plan is to just address them one by one unless… 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: [Inaudible 225:19] first question. 4
5
Chair Chang: Okay. Commissioner Reckdahl has a question, but does anybody object to that 6
process? Okay. We’re going to do that. Go ahead, Commissioner Reckdahl. 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. I want to talk about a setback and what does that preclude. For 9
example, could you have a fence in that setback? And if so, then you’re interfering with wildlife 10
using that riparian corridor. 11
12
Kevin Gardiner: So one thing we’ve been looking at are standards for what are known as 13
wildlife fences. So that would be something that we would include in the ordinance. So if a 14
fence is allowed within that setback, generally you don’t want them higher than about 40 15
inches, and you also want to leave space below that’s somewhere 12 inches or 16 inches, 16
something like that. And then the materials are also important in terms of animals being able to 17
see the fence, so that’s certainly a consideration that we want to address in the ordinance. 18
19
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. But in this setback then − so you could have a fence but it’d have to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
be wildlife-friendly. You can’t have any buildings. Can you have temporary buildings, sheds, and 1
stuff like that or does the [inaudible 226:26] have to keep this clear? 2
3
Kevin Gardiner: So some of that are questions that we’re asking the Commission but generally 4
as you’ve characterized it, it is an approach and it’s probably fairly consistent with the current 5
ordinance in terms of particularly how it regulates the slope stability area. So it’s probably 6
fences of a certain standard, maybe small buildings. That’s an open question. Things that would 7
not be allowed necessarily − so currently the ordinance doesn’t allow decks or swimming pools 8
or parking lots. There’s some other things. Loading docks, things like that. So right now that’s 9
just defined to that 20-foot slope stability area. I think what we’re looking at here is to expand 10
those – create a true setback to either anywhere from 40 feet to 150 feet depending on the 11
type of creek. So it would really not allow a lot of things other than those kinds of minor 12
improvements. 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Like pavers and patios and stuff would not be allowed? 15
16
Kevin Gardiner: If they were permeable. So that there would need to be some provisions for if 17
paving were to be allowed, you’d want it to be permeable, so that it’s not interfering. But you 18
generally don’t want large expanses of paved areas. You don’t want ornamental landscaping 19
that’s not consistent with riparian vegetation, so these are things we haven’t necessarily 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
brought for questions this evening because I think we felt those were a little more 1
straightforward. The things that we brought are the ones that we kind of got stumped as staff 2
as to which way do we go. But it’s – this is certainly not all encompassing. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. Thank you. 5
6
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Could you throw up the slide for the first area, which is the 7
applicability/types of development? Okay. So he – the – Mr. Gardiner already went through 8
what the staff recommendation is. Here’s our opportunity to discuss and comment on this item. 9
And I guess I didn’t have any time set aside for overall comments, so perhaps if you want to do 10
your overall comments now too if anybody has any. I’m going to start because I don’t see any 11
lights yet. So I just wanted to thank the team for putting together such a comprehensive report. 12
I’m really excited to see this come forward because we’ve run into multiple projects where we 13
kind of wish that our ordinance made it easier for us to make certain decisions and I think this 14
will help greatly. And so my thought is that I would support staff’s recommendation here. 15
Commissioner Summa. 16
17
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. And thank you to everyone who spoke tonight. I – broadly 18
put, I think we should do as much as we can do that is reasonable for property owners to 19
protect our creeks. It’s − so I don’t want to see too many deviations or variances but obviously 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
we have to have a variance process of some kind for people who have an unusual situation. So 1
that’s kind of my general thing − is that we should do the most we can do without overly 2
restricting people’s property rights. So I definitely want to see a much larger setback in the 3
sensitive areas that you mentioned. And for the general areas, I still think for naturalized – 4
natural creeks, we absolutely have to give’m the same setbacks that we have up in the hills and 5
stuff in the open space areas. It wouldn’t make sense for new development. It would not make 6
sense for me – to me to do less than that. We had a speaker talk about the importance of 7
Matadero Creek and it is a really extremely vital aspect of that neighborhood that they have 8
this big creek that’s all-natural running through it. So I think that any natural creek should be 9
protected to the utmost regardless of where it is in the city. And I just have a lot of questions 10
about channelized creeks because I see so much wildlife using them and I know we can’t alter 11
them in any way to risk flooding for people but I think it’s something to consider as we move 12
forward and not – and allow small exceptions or a variance process for a very unusual situation. 13
And I would prefer it be a public hearing. I wasn’t sure when the staff answered that question if 14
you meant it could be at the director’s level or that – I forget who answered it – or if they want 15
the variance, they have to have a public hearing process. 16
17
Kelly Cha: So it’s usually at the director’s level, so director approval or decision by the director. 18
But if the request – if it is requested to have heard at the public hearing, it will come to the PTC. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: So meaning if the applicant requests it? 1
2
Kelly Cha: That’s – it’s – so – go ahead. 3
4
Male: [Inaudible 232:13]. 5
6
Kelly Cha: Yeah, anyone can request it. It’s just that applicant can do it and also staff can 7
suggest it or if anybody actually brings up like City Council or PTC is concerned with certain 8
projects, that can also be done or any other public. 9
10
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. Members of the public can request a hearing because we publish those 11
notices and decisions. And so somebody can request and they have in the past requested 12
hearings and that’s when it comes before the Commission. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you. Commissioner Hechtman. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: So I’ll start with overall comments. So there’s a particular kind of 17
conversation we’d be having on this topic if Palo Alto was this new city we were planning with 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
various water courses running through it and we’re trying to plan how to sensibly build our city 1
to respect the natural environment. But our city is kind of different than that scenario because 2
it’s built. There are very few vacant, never-developed parcels between 101 and Foothill. In fact, 3
we could probably – staff could probably count how many there are that have never been 4
developed and are creek side or on the side of some kind of a lake or pond. There aren’t very 5
many. And so what we’re really talking about here is an existing environment and whether this 6
ordinance is going to try to recapture land that’s already been put to some use other than 7
protecting the riparian corridor, which might occur upon a redevelopment of that property. 8
Because if that’s where we’re going, I see some significant problems to that and I think you’re 9
going to discourage redevelopment. If I own a house on Edgewood and I learn that when I 10
want to add a bedroom or maybe the trigger is substantial remodel, when I do that, I’m actually 11
going to have to pull my fence in 30 feet and get rid of my back yard, and if I do that, but my 12
neighbors don’t, then we don’t really have this railroad that one of our public speakers spoke 13
about where there’s a corridor. We have more like jack-o-lantern teeth where fences start to 14
come in over the decades as people are redeveloping and are required to do that. So I’m really 15
concerned as we move through this about those kinds of unintended consequences. So I think 16
that one of the slides showed this is coming back in September. And one of the things that I 17
think would be useful to us when this comes back is to help us understand the real impact on 18
the ability to use property to – think of four or five typical scenarios and give us some examples 19
of how the draft ordinance that comes to us would impact that. Is somebody going to have to 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
pull their fence back 30 feet or not and here’s why. Because I’m really concerned about the 1
practical effects of it. I have done a fair amount of work on these kinds of issues with a variety 2
of clients. And in these preliminary comments, the other comment I would make is having to do 3
with riparian revegetation is not a simple or inexpensive requirement typically. You have to hire 4
professionals to design it, then you have to pay for it. And again, this is where it would be a 5
condition of approval of a city project whether it’s my new home or it could be an office 6
building, whatever by the creek. And those requirements typically come with long-term 7
monitoring requirements where there has to be an annual inspection and to the extent the 8
plants died, they have to be replanted and that can be repeated for three or five years. 9
Sometimes there’s a bond required. It can be something significant, so when we get to talking 10
about, I think, stream conditions, I think that’s where this riparian stuff comes in. I think we 11
need to be mindful of that and be mindful that, I believe, 75 percent of the land mass of Palo 12
Alto –if I remember those statistics right, is single family homes and so unless we carve them 13
out of the applicability of this – and I’m not suggesting we do or don’t at this point, then that’s 14
where most of this burden is going to fall and I think we really need to be thinking about all of 15
our homeowners in Palo Alto and make sure we don’t create a trap for them. 16
17
Chair Chang: Additional comments? So I was thinking that we would discuss each of these and 18
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
then make a recommend – make a motion on each of them. Oh, that’s right. It’s a study 1
session. 2
3
Female: [Yeah. Right 237:57]. 4
5
Chair Chang: I was told by staff – I’m now forgetting. It’s – I was told by staff that it would help 6
if we could get some sort of like [inaudible 238:06] type… 7
8
Jonathan Lait: It could be helpful but I’ll say just given the lateness, just hearing the comments 9
would be helpful, so that it gives us a chance to consider those as we refine… 10
11
Chair Chang: Perfect. 12
13
Jonathan Lait: …the ordinance. I think… 14
15
Chair Chang: Okay. 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jonathan Lait: I want to emphasize stream lining… 2
3
Chair Chang: Yes. Great. 4
5
Jonathan Lait: …our review at this moment. 6
7
Chair Chang: I don’t see other – oh, here we go. We’re falling asleep here, that’s why there’s no 8
lights. I think it’s crickets here. Commissioner Akin and then Commissioner Lu. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Yeah, I won’t try and make comments about everything in general but 11
instead we’ll pass through each of the topics that you wanted focus on. I think the staff 12
recommendation for applicability is the correct one. I don’t see either applying regulations – 13
these regulations universally or strictly to multi-family and commercial development as being 14
viable. There’s just too much area that’s affected by single-family development, so we need to 15
treat it some way and the suggestion of applying it but with some exceptions is the right 16
approach. 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Commissioner Lu. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: I agree that we should be sensitive to single family and just the volume of 4
single family and the potential scope for exceptions there. But I think this would be more 5
principled if we looked at the ultimate impact to the creek and worked backwards from there. 6
So I think there could be cases where it would make sense to treat multi-family or commercial 7
uses. Give them kind of consistent exceptions like if the exception is that it’s a one-story 8
structure with limited light or limited, I don’t know, volume of habitable space or something, 9
give that similar exception to say commercial space that might be along the [inaudible 240:19] 10
side or might be along El Camino. That seems more principled, more aligned with the 11
environmental outcomes we actually want and could actually be better because I could imagine 12
cases where like – I don’t know. Some retail or commercial space actually has less impact, less 13
light at night, less noise at other times, and things like that. So I would support some exceptions 14
but I would want to be more consistent about multi-family and commercial and not [inaudible 15
240:51] carve out single family. 16
17
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Vice Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. So looking at the slide, I agree that we really do have to have single 2
family. I don’t want this to be onerous but I think if we don’t do it, we’re not doing anything 3
east of Foothill. I don’t quite understand the difference between the staff recommendation and 4
Alternative 1 [inaudible 241:18]. Alternative A has no restrictions or no exceptions. Staff 5
recommendation does but I’d like to better understand what those exceptions were and why 6
those are chosen. So my preference would be some combination of either Alternative A or staff 7
recommendation. But I also am worried that if this does get onerous on single-family houses, 8
people will be upset and then we may not get anything. So we have to also be realistic about 9
the impact of this − has on people. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. Last calling. Last chance because we’re moving on to the second bucket. Oh, 12
one last one from Commissioner Hechtman. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: Thanks. So I didn’t talk about Section 1. So – and it’s kind of tricky 15
because these are really interconnected. So in Section 1, staff recommendation is to include 16
residential except for sort of a subcategory of single family but in – when we get to Item 2, staff 17
is recommending exempting certain R1, R2, and RMD. So the comments really have to be taken 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
as a whole even though we’re breaking them down maybe into five discrete discussions. 1
Because I am supportive of staff’s recommendation in 1 because we’re going to have a 2
discussion of the exemptions in 2. 3
4
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. No more lights. Let’s flip onto the next slide, please. All right. So this 5
is discussion about exemptions. And so clearly, I think Commissioner Hechtman might already 6
have some thought on that. Everybody else, please light it up for your thoughts. Okay. Nobody 7
is saying anything, so I will. Again, I support the staff recommendation here. It makes sense to 8
have an exception for channelized and urban streams because I don’t think that the value that 9
we would get – there’s not much value there in terms of if logical value. So yeah, those are my 10
thoughts. Others? Commissioner Lu, then Hechtman. 11
12
Commissioner Lu: I agree with Commissioner Chang. I’d echo my point about some multi-family 13
or commercial potentially being appropriate too but that’s all. 14
15
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Hechtman: So on this one, the example I’m thinking of is San Francisquito Creek 2
where – which would not be exempt in the staff recommendation, – but would be exempt in 3
staff Alternative A – and so again, my concern here is if I own one of those properties and I go 4
to do a substantial rebuild of my house, what happens to me? Right? If I’m not exempt, does 5
that mean I’m going to lose X feet of my backyard where I can longer have a security fence, 6
right? I can have – and I’m familiar with wildlife-friendly fences, right? You can step through 7
them. They’re meant to allow animals to pass through and humans can too. So there’s no 8
security back there. You gotta pull that security fence into whatever the setback is, 150 feet, 9
which of course, is in the middle of Edgewood or actually across the street at that point. So – at 10
which point we’ll get to in the deviations process. So that’s why – again, I ‘m wanting to support 11
the staff recommendation but I’m concerned about what happens to people on those natural 12
creeks if they’re not part of the exemption. 13
14
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 15
16
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. So I generally think I agree with staff recommendation and I 17
have a question to ask about that too. When we have a naturalized creek – a natural creek. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Sorry. I keep saying naturalized because of channelized. How do we – how do you really know 1
where the – does the property go to the middle of the waterway? The property line? Or does it 2
actually end on the bank? And I think this question has come up before. I don’t know if my 3
colleagues remember this with regards to something in Barron Park. But the creek bed – the 4
top of the creek can change because of erosion and it can change dramatically in one season 5
when there’s a lot of water and a lot of debris. So how do we – is it measured to the middle of 6
the creek? 7
8
Kelly Cha: So I think current staff recommendation is to use the top of the bank if that’s the 9
starting point and then measure the setback. 10
11
Commissioner Summa: I know that’s for our setbacks but where is the actual property? 12
Where… 13
14
Kelly Cha: Well… 15
16
Commissioner Summa: …does the county consider the property to end? 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kelly Cha: So the natural creeks, it may be part of the property like within the part of the 2
property lines. I know that I can confirm that for channelized ones, we do have easement with 3
the Silicon Valley Water District, so that distinction is more clear. But for naturalized, it depends 4
on I think the location of the creek because it keeps changing. Most likely – I’m going to ask Jim 5
to confirm if he knows and supplement. Most likely, it’s within the private property. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Okay. I couldn’t quite hear you. I’m sorry. It’s… 8
9
Kelly Cha: For natural creeks, it’s most likely it’s part of a private property. If there’s no clear 10
distinction like the channelized creeks because of the easement with the Valley Water District. 11
12
Commissioner Summa: Okay. So it’s not to the center of the waterway at any given time or – I 13
just think it’s interesting where the property lines are with regards to this question of 14
naturalized creeks. 15
16
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jim Martin: Right. So this is Jim. I just wanted to weigh in on the property line question. It really 1
varies. There’s some places where by deed, it’s to the center line of creek. There are other 2
places where the property owner can own both sides or extend only to top of bank. So there’s 3
variation there. There’s not one size fits all in this and it’s part of the challenge with looking at 4
appropriate setbacks and the data that we have, which typically is assumed to be center line for 5
the protected creek maps. 6
7
Commissioner Summa: Okay. Thank you for that. That’s kind of what I thought the answer was 8
going to be. But I’m generally supportive of the staff recommendation here. 9
10
Chair Chang: Commissioner Reckdahl. 11
12
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, I want to follow up with Commissioner Hechtman’s question about 13
fences. What typically happens – have other people done this? Other jurisdictions done this? 14
And people have been replacing their security fences with wildlife fences and then have no 15
other fence? Or do they do what Commissioner Hechtman said is back it off and still have the 16
security fence and then… 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kevin Gardiner: So a couple aspects – first I want to clarify the staff recommendation for the 1
San Francisquito Creek within the urbanized areas, which would be east of Foothill Expressway, 2
that would be a 40-foot setback, not a 150. So the 150 is really for the hill area. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 5
6
Kevin Gardiner: And I think you could – that is a fair question in terms of what kinds of fences 7
would be appropriate. The wildlife fence would speak to the hilly areas where there is more 8
open space and maybe that’s not as appropriate for an urban area. But I think you would even 9
in the areas where you do have the wildlife fences, you may have a security fence closer to the 10
house. I mean there you’ve got larger lots, so presumably having the security fence closer to 11
the house, it wouldn’t be as onerous. But in here, I do think that’s a good suggestion to look at 12
a few case studies and see how these would play out in projects and – for example, a house on 13
Edgewood and with that 40-foot setback and what you could do with it in that and how that 14
might impact what could go on that lot. 15
16
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. I live near Adobe Creek and everyone has the solid wood fences up 17
against the creek and I suspect they would not be happy with a wildlife fence. But yet if you 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
don’t put a wildlife fence in, then why are you having the setback because if you have this big 1
fence and then there’s a setback on the other side of the fence, why are we – why do we have 2
anything? I mean part of it I guess is to prevent erosion but is that accomplished with 20 feet? Is 3
20 feet enough for bank stability? 4
5
Kevin Gardiner: I mean that would be – that’s the current standard and we wouldn’t 6
recommend anything less than that but – yeah. Generally the more distance available for a 7
setback, the better for the creek. I think with channelized creeks, you can question – that’s a 8
different animal. So the bank stability or integrity of a concrete channelized creek is a different 9
discussion than trying to maintain the habitat and the quality of an earthen natural creek. 10
11
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: So big picture, why would we want a setback at all in the urban 12
environments here? I guess one thing is riparian corridor and having animals walk and the other 13
banks to build [inaudible 262:27]. Are there other things [inaudible 262:29] concerned about? 14
15
Kevin Gardiner: I think that’s what the basis of this recommendation is is that to focus on the 16
natural creeks and not focus on the channelized ones. And part of it is where you’re going to do 17
the most – where it has the most value for these efforts and – as Jim has also mentioned in the 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
meeting that there’s a little less gain to be had in the channelized areas. So the 1
recommendation would be to exempt those but then focus on the natural creeks. 2
3
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: But then again if people can’t put a fence there – I’m torn about the best 4
way to do this because if you… 5
6
Jim Martin: Can I weigh in a little bit? This is Jim again. 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, please. 9
10
Jim Martin: So the setback is – and I understand the concern about fencing and the existing 11
ordinance has a 5-foot setback from top of bank. But the setback is really to recognize and 12
capture not just the fence but where existing and proposed structures are and the relationship 13
of possible future improvements to not only the top of bank but to where particularly you have 14
remnant woody riparian vegetation. That can be on the stream bank or that can actually extend 15
beyond the top of bank into what would otherwise be assumed devel-, potential development 16
areas of the property. So it’s important as part of a review for a site-specific application to 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
understand where the top of bank is, what are the existing conditions, where are the footprint 1
of existing buildings, where are the footprint of existing fencing, and where are the limits of 2
woody riparian vegetation? Where’s the canopy? Where are the tree trunks that we’re trying to 3
protect as part of any future modification or improvement on that lot? Those are important 4
factors that have to be plotted out and considered as part of review in making sure that the 5
high-quality habitat along a naturalized channel, a creek, is protected. Not just within the top of 6
banks but where it extends beyond the top of bank is part of that setback consideration. 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. My question was if you have a solid fence at top of bank or near top 9
of bank, why do you care at all about what’s behind that fence. But I guess trees would be one 10
reason. You’d want to protect those trees and have a setback to prevent those trees from being 11
developed. 12
13
Jim Martin: [Inaudible 265:28]. Yeah, [inaudible 265:31] and removed. 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jim Martin: And I think that – we understand the point about the fencing and existing 1
conditions and the question about habitat value and securing private property, especially in the 2
areas east of 101. So that’s information we’ll flush out and hopefully come up with something 3
that is reasonable and maybe is a sub-item in the setback standards that are identified separate 4
from a structure or proposed modification, a remodel or expansion of building footprint. 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Okay. 7
8
Chair Chang: All right. Commissioner Akin. 9
10
Commissioner Akin: Thank you, Chair. Once again, I think the staff recommendation is the best 11
of the approaches that’s described here, so I support that. I want to get back to the question 12
that I asked during the clarifying questions, which was how many properties are actually 13
affected. Now I used to live across the street from San Francisquito Creek, so the area near 14
where I lived, there were no residences on the creek side of Palo Alto Avenue. So I’m curious as 15
to how many properties along San Francisquito might actually be affected by these new 16
regulations. So I would request that when the ordinance comes before us that you have a sense 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
of which areas are most affected, so that we can judge what the political fallout might be. 1
Thank you. 2
3
Chair Chang: Okay. I don’t see any other lights, so I think let’s move on to setback distances. 4
Great. Would anybody like to speak? I think I’m going to go first because nobody else – I’m 5
going to move this along. I’m supportive of the staff recommendation here as well. I think it’s 6
particularly important to treat the areas that are east of [inaudible 257:54]. It’s late. That are 7
west of Foothill and east of 101 differently because those are the areas where there’s kind of 8
the most wildlife habitat already. And so – yep, supportive. Commissioner Hechtman, then 9
Commissioner Summa. 10
11
Commissioner Hechtman: So I don’t have really an issue with the 150-foot setback for 12
properties west of Foothill, east of 101. That’s halfway between San Jose’s 100 and I think 13
Fremont Hills 200. But in the remaining area of the city, I guess my question is what is it about 14
Palo Alto streams that require greater protection than all of these other cities are imposing on 15
their streams, which we’ve seen are more routinely 20, 25 feet, 30 feet. Why is that we think 40 16
is the right number? And so in that area, I actually prefer Alternative A, inside the – that 17
corridor of 101 to Foothill to give us more flexibility. And again, this goes back to sort of who 18
does this apply to? I’m – if it’s 40 feet – so I think what we’re talking about there is it’s 40 feet 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
from top of bank, not 40 feet from the – so it’s really 20 feet more than the already existing 1
slope stability protection area, right? So okay. So – and again, I just think practically about this 2
house I have on Edgewood, which I don’t but if I did, those lots are typically 100 to 120 feet. I 3
don’t know if they go actually – a lot of properties do go to the centerline of the creek but a lot 4
don’t. So right now – and I’ve got a 25-foot front yard setback, so I can’t even start my house 5
until 25 feet back. And then right now if my house goes back call it 60 feet from the front and 6
the lot’s only 100 feet deep, well my patio is now in the 40-foot setback. And so when I go to 7
rebuild my house, do I have to lose my patio and essentially have to plant native plants in my 8
backyard and not use it or no hardscape, no impervious surfaces. So I think by following 9
Alternative A, inside this corridor, we greatly reduce the risk of that kind of inequitable result. 10
11
Chair Chang: So I understand Commissioner Hechtman’s concerns there. And my comments are 12
based on sort of the understanding that everything that’s currently built is grandfathered in and 13
it’s not about [inaudible 261:10] back more but rather preventing more – preventing closer 14
development to the – so it’s not about increasing the unbuilt area but preventing more built 15
area. Other comments? Okay, we’ve got Commissioner Reckdahl and then Lu. 16
17
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. My gut wants me to go with the staff recommendation. My brain is a 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
little worried about what Commissioner Hechtman is saying. So I would say staff 1
recommendation but really [inaudible 261:54] and say how onerous is this going to be. 2
3
Chair Chang: Commissioners − Lu? 4
5
Commissioner Lu: Yeah. Like others have said, I am comfortable with much larger setbacks 6
along the Foothills and Baylands, realizing that some properties will need some deviations 7
potentially. I am unsure about the exact numbers and the principle basis for 40 feet kind of 8
along the lines of previous comments. I realize I don’t totally understand Alternative A though 9
on maintaining 20-foot slope stability protection area but allowing greater flexibility within the 10
rest of the setback. So is that saying that there’s a 20-foot slope stability protection area and 11
also other TBD 40 foot or other kind of TBD setbacks? That would be – that would work 12
differently from what we discussed earlier? 13
14
Kevin Gardiner: That is what it’s suggesting. So for example, if in Alternative A, you’d still say 15
nothing can go in the 20 feet. But for example, as the comments we’ve discussed tonight, 16
maybe you say security fence is allowed within that 40 feet. You still have to stay clear of the 17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
20, so I think it opens it to be a little more flexibility in that additional 20 feet that’s between 1
20 and 40. It’s trying to address some of those concerns. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Okay. Just wanted to confirm we’re still anchoring on 40 there or if it was like 4
kind of TBD thing. So yeah, thank you. 5
6
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: Thank you. Just clarification, is Number 3 here, setback distances, is that 9
all creeks, channelized and natural? 10
11
Kevin Gardiner: So in this case, it is a bit of a mix and match. So I think if you put the different 12
recommendations together, it would be – the way that I would read this would be 40 feet for 13
the natural creeks. Channelized − if we go back to the prior recommendation, those would… 14
15
Commissioner Summa: Okay. 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Kevin Gardiner: …not be included. That… 2
3
Commissioner Summa: Okay. 4
5
Kevin Gardiner: …that’s kind of putting the pieces together. 6
7
Commissoner Summa: Okay. It’s just a little confusing. 8
9
Chair Chang: Thanks. That’s helpful. 10
11
Commissioner Summa: Pardon me? 12
13
Chair Chang: That’s helpful. 14
15
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: Yeah, clarifications. So I think that – so it’s kinda confusing also because 1
we used to have this slope stability protection area, which was 20 feet and then we had this 2
other streamside review area, I guess it’s called, which was 50 and this is 40. So I’m wondering 3
how – if it’s – if we would consider a reduction. But I definitely, like I said before, I feel 4
differently about natural creeks and channelized creeks. And they just have very different 5
characteristics. Thank you. 6
7
Chair Chang: Okay. Let’s go on to the next, which is stream conditions. So this is the riparian 8
vegetation component. Commissioner Reckdahl, then Summa, then Hechtman. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah. I mean just – the problem is that I’m just a layman, right? My gut 11
says that the cit-, natural creeks are far more important than the channelized creeks. But 12
maybe I’m wrong that – but my impression is that we should be really concentrated on the 13
natural creeks. 14
15
Chair Chang: Commissioner Summa. 16
17
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: That’s generally consistent with what I think and what I’ve stated before 1
generally so. And the culverts, I don’t really see the point of it requiring riparian plantings above 2
them. 3
4
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 5
6
Commissioner Hechtman: Yeah. So I’m going to actually ask some questions, so I can 7
understand it. So what is staff’s intent when they say, “Require riparian vegetation to be 8
maintained.” So again, [inaudible 266:35] house, fence – well that was a channel, I think. So 9
that’s not a good example, right? But there are houses along Edgewood right now that have a 10
fence pretty close to top of bank. So are we talking about whatever vegetation currently exists 11
between the edge of their fence and the top of bank, they are now responsible to maintain or is 12
the intent of what staff is talking about here is – and this [inaudible 267:07] of the other 13
question about if the recommendation on number 1 – sorry, number 2, the exemption, is 14
exempting existing development. Well if I go to tear down my house on Edgewood and build a 15
new one, is that exempt or not? Is that still existing development? What if I want to build it 16
right in the footprint of the old one or – what’s staffs’ intent there? And that relates to the 17
vegetation. Am I going to, again, have to remove my fence and now plant native plants for the 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
first 40 feet from top of bank? I’d like a little bit better understanding of what’s – how staff was 1
thinking this would actually work in an example like that. 2
3
Kevin Gardiner: So I think the staff recommendation is that if there’s existing riparian 4
vegetation, that should continue to be maintained. So if you’re tearing down the existing house 5
and redeveloping the property, there’ll be a survey done typically as part of any redevelopment 6
that will show the location of existing riparian vegetation in terms of tree trunks and tree 7
canopy and such. So the expectation would be that that would be maintained in the 8
redevelopment. It’s not wanting to take away any of that existing vegetation. But it’s not 9
necessarily saying you need to then plant more; it’s just saying don’t do further harm by – if you 10
got some good existing established riparian vegetation to − leave it alone in the redevelopment. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: Okay. Thank you. That’s very helpful. And so with that clarification, 13
I’m supportive of the staff recommendation. 14
15
Chair Chang: Okay. I don’t see any other lights. So perhaps we can cover the last one, which is 16
about deviations. Again, I will go first. Here, I’m hoping that we can keep things as similar to the 17
process for the rest of the city as possible. I think it’d be really confusing if they’re something 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
different for streams. So I think the staff recommendation makes sense. We just have to make 1
sure that we don’t create an ordinance that requires tons and tons and tons of exceptions. Go 2
ahead, Commissioner Reckdahl, then Hechtman. 3
4
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Me too. 5
6
Chair Chang: Commissioner Hechtman. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh, thank you. So I guess I like the way that staff’s recommendation 9
is phrased here. I was concerned though earlier when there was a lot of talk about the variance 10
process because to me, a variance is a State law creature. Very specific findings need to be 11
made. And those findings are designed so they can almost never be made. And so I think that 12
would be a potential disaster if that was the relief valve we had for somebody who couldn’t 13
build on their property because of the setback. And now I’m thinking of a situation with a 150-14
foot setback up in the hills. But between the other setbacks that are required on the property 15
and slope issues, you might not be – have a – I might have 10 acres but no buildable site. And 16
so we need to have a workable relief valve for that and I will cite as the example, San Jose. 17
While the table shows San Jose has a 150 – 100-foot setback, that setback almost never applies 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
in the urbanized areas. I have been involved in at least four occasions where what we had to do 1
was work with the City to get an appropriate setback for our urbanized setting that was – it’s an 2
exemption built into the Riparian Stream Corridor Policy of the City of San Jose. And so that 3
process works. It’s a little cumbersome, maybe a little more expensive for a property owner 4
than they’d like, but it works. And it – there’s some biology involved and so it’s a good 5
compromise. And so that’s what I think we need here. And to me, the staff recommendation 6
describes that as long as we’re not talking about a variance. 7
8
Chair Chang: Okay. So I think that covers the five topic areas. I don’t see any other lights here. 9
Hopefully, staff got some useful information. And then that brings us to the final two action 10
items now, called 4a and 4b. And given that we are now 2 hours behind schedule, I have a 11
process suggestion to make, which is to hear the staff presentation and then public comments 12
on each of the items, and then we will continue the rest to – I don’t know. We’ll – to another 13
date. But maybe staff has some advice as to what date. So continue it to a date [inaudible 14
272:22] the next meeting. I think that would be the plan. Obviously, we’d have to make a 15
motion after – once we get there. I’m getting nods all around. 16
17
Commissioner Hechtman: [Inaudible 272:33]. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Nobody’s disagree… 2
3
Commissioner Hechtman: No, I’m just wondering with the – I think we have at least one, maybe 4
two people here tonight… 5
6
Chair Chang: Yes. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: …who might want to speak but they also might want to wait. And 9
so… 10
11
Chair Chang: No. 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: …I want to give them the option to do either one is what I’m saying. 14
If they want to speak tonight, that’s great. But if you would rather wait – and so that we hear… 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: [Inaudible 272:53]. 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: …right before our discussion, that’s okay too. That’s my only caveat. 3
4
Chair Chang: Say that – yes. 5
6
Jonathan Lait: I just only want to say we could – I’m not sure if this supports what was just said 7
or not, but we could just decide to continue the whole thing till the next meeting as well. And… 8
9
Chair Chang: I don’t think we want to continue the whole thing s we have some really dedicated 10
people who have – are… 11
12
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. Understood. 13
14
Chair Chang: …sitting here the whole time… 15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Jonathan Lait: Yeah. 2
3
Chair Chang: …and I want to make sure that we get their comments. 4
5
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: And I think their comments and our comments may move what happens in 6
the next month. So – in the next two weeks. 7
8
Chair Chang: Okay. So let’s go ahead and quickly do the staff presentation for the first one, 9
which is going to be Dark Skies, and then we’ll take public comment on that. And then we’ll do 10
the staff’s presentation for the second and take public comment. And I guess I have a question 11
for Director Lait. Is there an option − because the concern is that we may have lost some people 12
who wanted to comment. Is there an option to allow to – I mean I don’t want to hear the same 13
comments again next week. But is there a option to pick up any comments that we lost? 14
15
Jonathan Lait: So that would be your prerogative as Chair to open up for additional public 16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
comment when the item comes back, if you have another presentation. If you’re continuing the 1
item − and I’ll ask Mr. Yang to weigh in if I’m getting this wrong. If you’re going to continue this 2
public meeting and leave it open, then you can receive additional comments. But after you’ve 3
heard the presentation and received the public comments, you would be presumably closing 4
the public period and then continuing the matter for Council or for Commission deliberation. I 5
still think you reserve the right to open it up but Mr. Chang – Yang, do you want to… 6
7
Albert Yang: Yeah. So it’s really up to you, Chair. You can certainly say we’ll have limited public 8
comment at the continued hearing for anyone who didn’t speak tonight. 9
10
Chair Chang: Great. I think that will be my plan, which is to have limited public comment for 11
anybody who didn’t speak tonight for the next – when we continue this. Okay. 12
13
Action Items 14
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 15
16
4. Recommend the City Council Adopt the Draft Ordinances Updating Palo Alto 17
Municipal Code (PAMC) (4a) Chapter 18.40 (General Standards and Exceptions) 18
Section 18.40.250 (Lighting) and (4b) Adding a New Section 18.40.280 (Bird-Friendly 19
Design). 20
21
Kelly Cha: Okay… 22
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Go ahead. 2
3
Kelly Cha: …so my name is Kelly Cha. I’m here to – I’m going to have a very brief presentation 4
and then next time when we’re actually – when Commission is deliberating on this item, I’ll 5
bring back, so that it can help to facilitate the discussion. So this is a Council party item for 2024 6
and it has been it for, I believe, couple of years before that. And the intent is to be consistent 7
with Dark Sky principle to the extent possible. So the draft ordinance, which is Attachment A of 8
the report will be replacing the existing lighting section in the code. And these are the main 9
sections of the ordinance. Applicability basically allows new construction, any substantial 10
remodel, and to apply to be consistent with the new standards as well as when anybody is 11
introducing new or trying to replace the existing outdoor lighting. And to be consistent with the 12
Dark Sky principles, we’re requiring completely shielded lighting with some exception. And staff 13
is recommending 3,000 Kelvin limits after deliberating with some other internal departments. 14
And we’re retaining foot-candle measurements for ease of enforcement. And for lighting 15
control, that’s more like a curfew, we’re asking for 10:00 PM extinguishment. This is consistent 16
with other [inaudible 277:01] use requirement as well and after 10:00 PM motion sensor 17
activation would be required. And we have several special purpose lighting including security 18
and outdoor recreational facilities, which will be modified a little bit, and service station as well 19
as string lighting. And for the – this particular ones, we have had some internal discussions with 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
other city departments and they were a little bit concerned with new standards, how it’s going 1
to impact their operations and facilities. So we have introduced a new language here basically 2
allowing exceptions but they still would have to comply with the standards to the extent 3
feasible. And last month, staff took this item to ARB and they have provided some feedback and 4
that’s why you see the substantial remodel in the applicability section. And we have added a 5
little bit of additional language for the curfew, so that even though the applicability only applies 6
to new construction, substantial remodel, and when you have new outdoor lighting or replacing 7
existing, the curfew would be also applied to existing homes, so existing lighting. So for single-8
family homes who has outdoor lighting, we’ll ask them to actually turn it off at 10:00 PM. And 9
there’s some minor modifications included. According the ARB recommendation, there’s some 10
street numbers that cannot be completely shielded. So that concludes the presentation. And 11
this is the recommendation. The staff recommend that – oh, that’s not – recommend that City 12
Council adopt – actually recommend PTC to forward a recommendation to adopt the draft 13
ordinance. And we’re currently tentatively scheduled for September hearing with the City 14
Council for adoption. 15
16
Chair Chang: Okay. Quick question. Does that get pushed back because we’re having to 17
continue? 18
19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Kelly Cha: Yes, that might happen. 1
2
Chair Chang: Okay. No choice. Thank you for the fastest, expeditious staff presentation ever. 3
I’m not even going to – we’re not going to do clarifying questions. We’ll just take the public 4
comment. So what do we got – what do we have, Ms. Dao? 5
6
Veronica Dao: I have one group and then two individual speakers. So first is Dashiell Leeds 7
speaking on behalf of Diane McCoy, Linda Ruthruff, Lynn Heideman, and Laura M. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. So just a reminder to the public that if you haven’t raised your hand 5 10
minutes after the staff presentation that we won’t hear you tonight. But you are welcome to 11
come to our next meeting and we will hear you then. Okay. Go ahead. 12
13
PUBLIC COMMENTS 14
Dashiell Leeds: [Inaudible 280:41]. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Really close to the mic, so we can hear you. 1
2
Dashiell Leeds: Can you hear me? 3
4
Chair Chang: No. I’m not… 5
6
Dashiell Leeds: How about now? Okay. 7
8
Chair Chang: Perfect. 9
10
Dashiell Leeds: Great. Cool. 11
12
Chair Chang: Fantastic. 13
14
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Dashiell Leeds: Thanks. Hello, Chair Chang and Commissioners. My name is Dashiell Leeds. I’m 1
the conservation coordinator for the Sierra Club Loma Prieta Chapter. I’m here with the Santa 2
Clara Valley Audubon Society. Here to talk to you about some proposed recommended 3
improvement that we have for the Dark Sky ordinance. Just to [inaudible 281:04] start by thank 4
you to staff who’ve worked so hard on this ordinance, Kelly and others. And thank you too, 5
Veronica, for helping us coordinate the PowerPoint presentation today. Let’s go to the next 6
slide. So first I just want to talk a little briefly about bifurcating the Bird Safe process from the 7
Dark Sky process. We think that significant work is needed on the Bird Safe Design ordinance 8
and that the Dark Sky ordinance is – excuse me – a little closer to an adoption-ready state. So 9
we hope that you move forward with the Dark Sky Ordinance tonight to recommend that to – 10
for City Council adoption with some motions that we have on the handout here. Next slide, 11
please. So we do have 5 points that we're going to be asking for in the motion. Adding the 12
mention of “the night sky” to the purpose statement of the ordinance. Reducing the upper 13
Kelvin limit to 2,700 Kelvin from the existing 3,000 Kelvin. Clarifying that there should no light 14
fixtures or light trespass within riparian corridor setbacks. Producing the maximum allowable 15
light trespass from .5-foot candles to .1-foot candle. And adding requirements for existing 16
fixtures to conform to lighting standards if feasible and allowing a grace period of 5 years for 17
non-conforming lighting that cannot immediately or easily be changed. On some of these slides, 18
there’s going to be a lot of text, so I’ll just refer back to the handout and we’ll just breeze 19
through some of the slides. Let’s go next, please. So first, adding “the night sky” to the purpose. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
We think this is really important. You can see here – you can see the stars in the night sky and 1
The Milky Way. Go to the next slide. And here’s an example, the light-polluted sky over San 2
Jose, we can’t see any skies, we can’t see The Milky Way, and the astronomers are sad. Next 3
slide, please. So I’ll just sort of breeze through this one. Cupertino, Portolo Valley, and Brisbane 4
all have mention of the night sky in their purpose. So we should do the same. Next slide, please. 5
Okay. So let’s talk about Kelvin here. Reducing the upper limit to 2,700 versus 3,000 Kelvin. So 6
it's hard to see the X and Y axis on the graph here from this perspective, but the X axis is the 7
wave length, blue versus red wavelengths of light and the Y axis is the relative intensity of those 8
wavelengths. Blue light is more damaging to our biology, which I’ll discuss in a little bit. But 9
comparing 2,700 versus 3,000 Kelvin, you can see on the left-hand side, that blue spike is much, 10
much higher on the 3,000 Kelvin slide. It’s almost twice as much relative intensity of blue light 11
compared to 2,700 Kelvin. And that’ going to be important for reasons that I’ll discuss on the 12
next slide. So I want to talk a little bit about Dark Sky Internationals State of the Science 2024 13
Report. This is like a mega collaborate – or mega conglomeration of all these different studies 14
relative to lighting. I want to do – discuss some of these quotes here. So scientists have 15
observed harms at all levels from individual plants and animals, all the way to entire 16
populations, and all living things react to light. Next slide, please. If you want to read those 17
quotes a little bit more in the future, they are printed on your handout as well. So impacts on 18
humans. So artificial light at night, sometimes abbreviated as ALAN, seems to have effects on 19
the entire lifecycle from childhood to adolescents to old age. But in particular these effects 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
seem to result from short wavelength or blue light. So again, that spike that we saw for the 1
3,000 Kelvin being much higher is that kind of blue light that’s going to exacerbate these 2
impacts. And it says at the end, the significance of these effects depend on the intensity of the 3
light, the proportion of blue light, and the timing and duration of exposure. So whether how 4
blue a light is is very important. Next slide, please. So artificial light at night can affect us at a lot 5
of different ways. I’m just going to name a couple. It can delay or prevent recovery from stroke. 6
It can harden our arteries. It can encourage the spread of communicable diseases. 7
Unfortunately, mosquitoes that carry these sorts of diseases are more active in light-polluted 8
areas. It’s just really unfortunate how that works out. So this [inaudible 285:33] artificial light at 9
night can actually create conditions for new and devastating diseases like COVID 19. Next slide, 10
please. It’s a couple excerpts from some studies. I just want to highlight one study in Spain. 11
They used images from the International Space Station, including data of remotely-sensed 12
upward light intensity and blue light spectrum information from each geocoded residence of 13
each subject, and they were looking at prostate and breast cancer. And they concluded that 14
both prostate and breast cancer were associated with high-estimated exposure to outdoor 15
artificial light at night in the blue-enriched light spectrum. So the more outdoor blue light we 16
have, the more risk we have for all sorts of things, including breast cancer and prostate cancer. 17
Next slide, please. So let’s talk a little bit about what we know about lighting and safety. And 18
the science on this is really mixed. Many of the studies that are done are inconclusive. Some 19
indicate a slight correlation between lighting and safety and some actually indicate that less 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
artificial light leads to more safety. The science is not clear at all on this. The results are all over 1
the place. And in the absence of clear data, many elected officials have just opted to over-2
lighting often more than the community needs. Let’s go to the next slide. So a recommendation 3
is let’s go with the science, let’s go with the data, and let’s set a limit of 2,700 Kelvin. We know 4
that blue light can negatively impact residents, wildlife, and ecosystems, and we don’t have a 5
scientifically demonstrable or [replicable 287:11] connection between lighting level, color 6
temperature, and crime or public safety. So let’s just go with the science on this one. And then 7
next slide. So light fixture availability. When LEDs first came out, they were often really blue. It 8
was really hard to find [inaudible 287:28] bulbs and – yeah. There’s just a lot of light pollution 9
because of their efficiency. But 2,700 Kelvin fixtures are far more readily available these days, 10
so it’s not so much of an issue. So next slide, please. So the next thing we’re asking for is that 11
there – just to clarify that there should no light fixtures or light trespass within riparian 12
corridors. This would be language that we recommend adding onto the existing stream section 13
listed there. We can go to the next slide on that. I think due to the impacts of birds – or the 14
impacts of light on birds and wildlife and riparian habitat, that is hopefully obvious include and 15
– yeah. So our next thing that we’re asking for is reducing the maximum allowable light trespass 16
from .5-foot candles to .1-foot candles. So just for reference here, the light of the full moon is 17
.01-foot candles. So even at .1, we’re already talking about 10 times the light of the full moon. 18
And at .5, we’re looking at 50 times the light of the full moon. I just want to talk a little bit 19
about some of the other jurisdictions that have this. So Malibu, for residential properties and 20
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
other sensitive areas, they use .1 and for all other areas, they use .5, which is still half of the 1
current draft. Brisbane actually does not allow any light trespass at all, which is awesome. If you 2
want to do that, that’s great. But we are just asking for .1. And then San Bernardino County, 3
they have .1 for their mountain and desert regions and .5 for their valley areas. Next slide, 4
please. So I’m not going to read all of the text on these slides. This is more for if we want to go 5
back and look at this later. But we are asking for provisions to be included that would cover 6
existing, non-conforming lighting. As currently written, lighting that is not replaceable just 7
remain non-conforming unless there’s a major remodel or that fixture itself is actually replaced. 8
So this can lead to a lot of unnecessary light pollution. A lot of fixtures can be adjusted. They 9
can be angled. So in situations where this is really easily done and the fixture is easily modified 10
to conform, we ask that the compliance be brought in within a short timeframe and then for 11
other lighting fixtures that may be more difficult, there’s a grace period. So there are different 12
grace periods for different jurisdictions. We’re asking for five years. But as you can see on the 13
side of this example, it’s from Brisbane. And then you go to the next slide. There should be an 14
example from our model lighting ordinance and then afterwards an example from Malibu. So 15
you can actually go to the next slide after that. And we can just skip through Malibu as well. We 16
can go back and look at that if you want. We have written an example – sample of this language 17
into the handout that you have. But for a motion today, you could just recommend that Council 18
consider including a provision rather than hashing out all of the language here. And then – 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
yeah. A lot of the information I’ve talked about is on the handout and then on the slides here. 1
And thank you so much for your time. 2
3
Chair Chang: Thank you. Next speaker please. 4
5
Veronica Dao: Next… 6
7
Chair Chang: I think you meant to have 5 [inaudible 290:51]. 8
9
Veronica Dao: Yes. 10
11
Chair Chang: Okay. 12
13
Veronica Dao: Next is Shani Kleinhaus. 14
15
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Shani Kleinhaus: I’ll save this for next time. And I will speak to the Bird Safety later today. 1
2
Veronica Dao: And next is Rani Fischer. 3
4
Rani Fischer: Hello. I’m a member of the Santa Clara Valley Audubon Society and Environmental 5
Commission. I’m a resident of Sunnyvale, so what am I doing here? I’m here to give you an 6
example of what happens when the ordinance does not – the light ordinance does not include 7
existing buildings. I live near the railroad tracks in Sunnyvale right where the residential ends 8
and the office parks begin. And two or three years ago, I had a building, Fortnite Security, and it 9
shone these very bright lights up into the air to just simply to illuminate the building and it – 10
even though it was over a quarter mile away from me, I could make puppet shadows on the 11
walls. And this was the living room. I had blackout shades in the bedroom. Now I could have put 12
blackout shades in the living room too but it just angers me that − what are they doing to the 13
environment? So I encourage you to include existing buildings in your ordinance and as Dash 14
said it need not be to change the fixtures. I tried and tried to get the City to do something and 15
they couldn’t because they didn’t have the ordinance. I wrote [inaudible 292:37] with Shani’s 16
help and the [inaudible 292:39]. And they changed the angle of the light. So that’s my story. 17
And just a little tie on − the security. I live in an HOA complex and they put in very, very, very 18
bright lights, probably 5,000 Kelvin in the parking [supports 292:59] and we still have had – a 19
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
year ago, someone with a gun, stealing a car, and pointing it at people inside the building. So it 1
doesn’t work. The bright lights don’t always deter crime. Thank you very much. 2
3
Chair Chang: Thank you. 4
5
Veronica Dao: That’s it for Dark Skies. 6
7
Chair Chang: Fantastic. Okay. So… 8
9
Female: [Inaudible 293:29]. 10
11
Chair Chang: …I think we need to make a motion to continue this. We’re not closing public – 12
somebody help me. Make a motion. I think – Commissioner Hechtman. 13
14
Commissioner Hechtman: Sure. I’ll try. I move that the PTC continue Action Items 4a and 4b 15
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
to… 1
2
Chair Chang: Oh, no. I think we’re just going to… 3
4
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh. 5
6
Chair Chang: …do 4a right now and we’re still going to take the comments for 4b. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Oh, okay. Sorry. Then – I didn’t realize that. So 4a to our August 28 9
meeting allowing limited public testimony on Item 4a at that meeting by members of the public 10
who may wish to speak and did not speak tonight. 11
12
Chair Chang: Second. Discussion? All right. Ms. Dao, could you please take the vote? 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 15
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 4
5
Chair Chang: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 8
9
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 12
13
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 14
15
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 1
2
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 3
4
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Reckdahl? 5
6
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 7
8
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 9
10
Chair Chang: Great. Could we have the staff presentation for the next item, which is on Bird 11
Safe Design? 12
13
Kelly Cha: Hello again. Before the presentation, I just wanted to inform the Planning 14
Commission – Planning and Transportation Commission that we have ARB Chair Rosenberg on 15
line to – actually she’s here to help facilitate the discussion but just – I guess we’re continuing, 16
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
so we’ll ask her to attend the next meeting. [Inaudible 295:33]. So this is also the – this comes 1
from the same priority, Council priority, as the Dark Sky ordinance. But it also has – it’s 2
implementation action of one of the comprehensive plan policy that encourages bird-friendly 3
design and asking for developing guidelines. So we are – there’s no actually existing section on 4
design – bird-friendly design standards, so we’re introducing a new section to the code. The 5
applicability was one of the main discussion item for ARB and we have ended up with all new 6
construction and substantial remodel in the Bird Sensitive Area and also new or replacement 7
windows or bird hazard installations that are unbroken and 24 square feet, they would have to 8
comply with the new standards, new bird-friendly design standards. And we are allowing some 9
exemptions that’s listed here. We’re allowing [inaudible 296:41]. We have three options, so 10
they would have to choose one to comply. One of them is the glazing and the fenestration, so 11
this is what we’re asking for. So 2 inches apart, at least a quarter inch wide, and if they’re using 12
lines, it’s still 2 inch apart and the line width should be greater than a one-eight inch. And we’re 13
also requesting – another option is to have some exterior features that’s shown here. It’s – 14
these are some of the examples − and I’m just going to go back. And another option is to use 15
the [inaudible 297:24] reflector. It’s a reflectance level of the materials used for buildings and 16
the [inaudible 297:32] reflector information is avail-, readily available from the American Bird 17
Conservancy Website. And another requirement is the bird-safe treatment to be located and 18
installed no less than 90 percent. If it – in between the zero and 40 feet of the building and 19
anything above 40 feet, we’re asking 60 percent of the surface to be treated. And this is 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
consistent with CalGreen Program. Just go back. So as I mentioned, the [inaudible 298:07] 1
discussion actually focused on applicability and exemption. And so we added a substantial 2
remodel to the applicability like lighting and we have also added a size-base requirement for 3
the bird-friendly design ordinance, which is the 24-inch unbroken windows. So the staff 4
recommendation is recommend that – PTC to recommend to City Council to adopt the new 5
ordinance language, and again, this will have to be moved but initially, it was supposed to go to 6
the City Council in September. 7
8
Chair Chang: Thank you. Ms. Dao, what public comments do we have for this? 9
10
Veronica Dao: I have one group and three individual. I think first would be Dashiell Leeds again. 11
12
Chair Chang: They’re on line. Hi. 13
14
Dashiell Leeds: Hello, Chair Chang and Commissioners. Hi again. Dashiell Leeds from the Sierra 15
Club Loma Prieta Chapter. I want to talk a little bit about bird-friendly design. Particularly, I 16
think the first part of the presentation here is fine. If you want to go to the next slide. So first, 17
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1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
we have plenty of birds here in Palo Alto, and fortunately, birds have been shown to be linked 1
to higher happiness levels. So not only do birds themselves benefit from this but benefit 2
because the birds benefit. You can go to the next slide. And that’s a study from the World 3
Economic Forum, by the way. So I want to talk about some hazardous features. So first is highly-4
reflective glass and how it functions. So for highly-reflective glass, birds unfortunately don’t 5
know that glass is there, so if they can see habitat reflected in that glass, it provides an 6
incentive for them to try to get to it and they’ll fly right into it. So you can see on basically all 7
three of these photographs, you can see pretty clear outlines of nearby habitat in these 8
reflections. You can go to the next slide, please. The next is see-through glass buildings. So 9
much like highly-reflective glass, with see-through glass, birds can see habitat through the glass 10
and try to get to it and smash into windows. So not only is this building see-through but it’s also 11
reflective, so kind of a double whammy there. You can go to the next slide. And here’s another 12
example of see-through glass buildings. I believe this project went to the ARB and there were 13
some mitigations proposed but they, to my knowledge, were not specific enough to – what was 14
that? 15
16
Female: [Inaudible 300:47]. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Dashiell Leeds: Oh, okay. So I got my buildings mixed up then. But – yeah, this is another 1
example of see-through glass features. As you can see, you can actually see the blue sky 2
through the entire building itself. Next slide, please. And here’s some more examples of see-3
through glass buildings. One of these − the top right photo actually you can see habitat that is 4
inside the building, so a special bird trap there. But there are also some architectural features 5
like the glass corner on the bottom left. This is an especially dangerous one for birds. And then 6
on the bottom right, another especially dangerous hazardous feature, which is parallel panes of 7
glass just creating that extra visibility for birds to just try and fly through that. Next slide, please. 8
But it’s not only buildings; it’s also auxiliary structures. On the top left photo, you can see that 9
they actually have had issues with bird strikes and they’ve tried to put some stickers on there to 10
try and mitigate that. There are other kinds of glass fencing as you can see on the top right 11
where you can also see the habitat through the glass. On the bottom left, you have a bus stop 12
and you can pretty much see entirely through that. It almost doesn’t even look like glass is 13
there. And then on the bottom right, you can see another glass fence creating another glass 14
corner. Next slide, please. And I think this is actually the end of my comment and I think where 15
I hand it off. But yeah – part of our solutions is to avoid these collision hazards and to identify 16
such collision hazards to avoid them entirely. So thanks. 17
18
Chair Chang: Thank you. 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Veronica Dao: Yes. Next is Shani Kleinhaus speaking as a group on behalf of Linda, Diane , Julie, 2
and Lyn. 3
4
Shani Kleinhaus: Thank you. Shani Kleinhaus again. And the first thing we tried to do to avoid – 5
with bird collisions is not to even have them, right? So if you can avoid them by designing a 6
building that doesn’t have any hazardous or really extensive, really reflective, all these types of 7
buildings that kill birds, then that’s the best solution. It doesn’t necessarily cost more. It doesn’t 8
depend on location. It’s relatively easy. I wanted to say one other thing as I move into more 9
details here. Like Dashiell said earlier, the Dark Sky Ordinance is getting to where it’s – you can 10
make some recommendations, include our recommendations where they can move forward. 11
We feel that this one is not even close. It needs a lot of work. So I’ll go through some of these 12
issues. I did not go through every one of them in the e-mails and the presentations but the first 13
thing is that we think that we would like this ordinance to move forward. And we felt that it 14
really is important to address the natural areas on 101, and the Baylands, and the hillsides but – 15
and the natural creeks, which continues to go back to the first discussion here today. But the – 16
for most of the city, we don’t need to consider the city – certain areas are more bird-sensitive 17
areas than others. If I look at my house, I have more birds around my house than any of the 18
other homes around but mine would not fall in a bird-safety area and the ones in front of me 19
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
and behind me would. So I think we need to really look at the city a little differently in terms of 1
the area between 101 and Foothills Expressway with the exception of natural creeks that needs 2
special [inaudible 305:08], special treatment. The next thing in the next slide – I don’t even 3
know where I am. Go two slides ahead. Sorry. So yeah − where does the ordinance apply 4
includes the dimensions of how much glass and combines two different things. One is the bird 5
hazards like reflective glass or transparent glass or [inaudible 305:40] situations and a whole 6
bunch of other things with the size of 24 square feet. But they come from different directions 7
and marrying them together, I don’t think works. I’ve been working on bird safety design for a 8
long time for a lot of companies around here as well. So I think that needs to be reconsidered 9
and there’s also – we have to consider not only – and I don’t know how you do that. That’s your 10
expertise. But some auxiliary structures like the bus station that Dash – that you showed – that 11
Dash showed. Next slide. The requirement of 40 feet for the more substantial [inaudible 12
306:17] feet. I’m not sure why 40. Most of the other cities around us require 60 because that’s 13
where the trees canopy is and for Palo Alto, we’re the big tree. We are the tall tree. We need to 14
do it the minimum but it’s 60 feet like Mountain View and Cupertino and even San Jose and not 15
necessarily 40, which is not usual here. The American Bird Conservancy says 100 feet. New York 16
City requires 75. The next slide. So we wrote some recommendations. You can look at them 17
more because we’ll have to discuss it again. But we’re looking at no less than 90 percent of 18
building elevations up to 60 feet and then if you have a green roof, that resets things. So we 19
need to think about green roofs. The numbers they wrote here on the slide come from San 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jose. They’re not necessarily the best. It’s just one example I could find. And then the 1
remainder of the structure, the staff recommended 60 percent of the remaining of the 2
structure above the 40 or what I would say 60 feet. What I see – Cupertino only has 5 percent. 3
Other cities don’t require any, so we need to figure it out and I don’t know for sure. But 4
definitely, we don’t want to allow any hazardous situations to occur in the area that is not 5
included. So if you say you have to [inaudible 307:48] 90 feet at 90 percent of the [inaudible 6
307:51] let’s say and then they put a really mirror-like structure with 10 percent left, then that’s 7
where the birds are going to die. So – and you’ll see examples later of that. The next slide I 8
think – so the same that I would consider for the general requirements should really apply to all 9
development in the bird safety areas, which as I said, could be shrunk. But also for all 10
commercial and mixed use. That’s what is required in some of the other cities whereas 11
residential is separated. And I would recommend that at least for those type of structures for 12
mixed use and for commercial, it would apply city-wide. A lot of cities do that. In Mountain 13
View, they required it for buildings that are larger than 10,000 square feet. So there’s some 14
flexibility that you can consider here but it definitely needs more thought to be involved – 15
invested here. And so for housing that is outside of bird safety areas, it needs more 16
investigation and thought because you don’t want to make it onerous on the homeowners that 17
are in those areas. But you also want to prevent the most egregious types of structure like 18
some of those that we’ve seen in those slides. So how do we get there still needs some 19
consideration. I don’t know where I am on this slide. You can go to the next one. I think the 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
definition of a bird – what is a bird hazard installation goes to the heart of this. Because not 1
every piece of glass is a hazard but the types of things we’ve seen before are. So one thing that 2
was not included is highly-reflective glass. And I put 20 percent or more. Again, this comes from 3
San Jose and I’m not sure that that’s the best description. It’s very difficult to deal with 4
reflectivity but need to find out. And then in terms of the – I put the longest description behind 5
it and again – in there. And I hope that you take a look at it later and staff, I’m sure will. But it 6
needs to have a more – to expand the examples because people don’t necessarily think about 7
that themselves. So if you say this and this and this not limited to, then they don’t look at 8
anything else. So we do need to be a little more comprehensive with that. And so I kind of 9
merged part of what the staff offered with some of what Cupertino did. And I think that for 10
developments, not every development I think requires objective standards, so you can be more 11
flexible on the ones that don’t and be more prescriptive for the types of development that does 12
require objective standards. One of the things for example is if you have two parallel walls, how 13
far can they be apart? New York uses 17 feet. That’s what the staff used as well. And some of 14
them requires 30 feet, which makes a lot more sense for this area but even that may not be 15
enough for some building additions that − kind of building bridges. Like if you think about the 16
Amazon building over in East Palo Alto, that bridge initially did not have [inaudible 311:40] and 17
eventually they did something on the inside but still they did something. About bird-friendly 18
treatment, I have a couple of comments. One is that UV doesn’t work. It’s simply doesn’t work 19
and the tunnel tests that they do, the birds may see it but in real life, they just don’t. And you 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
can assume that if you don’t see it, the birds are not going to see it either. Not all birds can see 1
UV and they don’t see it when it’s dark or in the early morning and late evening, which is a time 2
when they’re active. The other thing is that the threat factor – and I’m way behind. Can I go to 3
my last slide. No, wait. No. Go back. Back. One more. Yeah. See this building. This is a building 4
that was proposed in San Jose and I think some of you may be familiar with it. The Sierra Club 5
sued over this one because it’s right next to the Guadalupe River and this building passed the 6
test of the Section 3 in the Threat Factor. Even though it’s right next to the Guadalupe River, 7
they had some walls that didn’t have any glass towards the city where it didn’t look too good 8
and then they had some that was [inaudible 313:03] near the creek but they had some really 9
serious bird death traps in that building. I don’t think will ever get built because of the changing 10
situation with commercial real estate but that’s just my opinion. They might come back. They 11
have all the permits to do it right now. They have the entitlement, so – yeah. I’m like one 12
second. I’m doing well. Thank you. 13
14
Chair Chang: Thank you. Next speaker. 15
16
Veronica Dao: Next is Julianne Wang. 17
18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Ms. Wang, make sure you move the microphone so it’s right next to your mouth, 1
so that we can hear you. 2
3
Julianne Wang: Good evening Commissioners. My name is Julianne Wang. 4
5
Chair Chang: Closer. Closer please. 6
7
Julianne Wang: Okay. So my name is Julianne Wang. I’m a previous bird researcher and now a 8
policy advocate assistant at Santa Clara Valley Audubon Society. My presentation is titled “Are 9
Visual Cues Effective?” So you can see in this slide two windows, the left is from the Meta 10
building in Menlo Park and the right is from [Inaudible 314:34] City Hall. Both have bird-friendly 11
free patterns. Lines and [inaudible 314:40] of ceramic patterns in the glass. So these are 12
examples that have been proved to be quite effective for preventing bird threats and are 13
comfortable for [inaudible 314:57]. You can see that they’re – the pattern are highly-visible 14
from inside. Next slide, please. This is an office building in Mountain View with transparent 15
glass and some areas [inaudible 315:15] free to make the glass reasonable to birds. The 16
[building’s 315:19] not in what we could consider a bird-safety area. A study of bird collisions 17
was performed here between 2020 and 2022 by HT Harvard. Next slide, please. Oh. You can see 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
this is – this shows the locations of bird collisions in red dots and [dead 315:47] birds on the 1
ground in blue dots. The area in yellow is where the bird-friendly treatment was supplied. As 2
you can see, there were almost no bird collisions here. We can also see that birds mostly collide 3
at lower elevations but they can also collide [inaudible 316:06] up. The victims including many 4
species, including this yellow warbler, a species of special concerns. Next slide, please. So this is 5
a study from [inaudible 316:21]. They studied the bus stations with glass shelters and compared 6
clean and dirty glass and glass with graffiti. They conclude that graffiti saves birds. Yeah. Next 7
slide. Summary of the result. Clean glass shelters caused more collision and dusty shelter, less. 8
Graffiti, even less. And the shelters – so you can see that dirty glass really help. Well – next 9
slide. This is a bus station. We showed this picture before. It’s in Stanford Research Park. The 10
design was required by the Palo Alto ARB last year at Audubon’s request. It was retrofitted with 11
bird treatment [inaudible 317:15] by Stanford. Next slide. This slide show two good example of 12
bus stations. You can see the beautiful patterns on the glass. And this – all those patterns really 13
provide good visual cues to alert birds to the glass barrier. Thank you. 14
15
Chair Chang: Thank you. 16
17
Veronica Dao: And last is Rani Fischer. 18
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Hi, Rani. Is there… 2
3
Female: [Inaudible 318:00]. 4
5
Chair Chang: No. Oh. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Okay. Then that was our last speaker. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. Great. Thank you. So I think we need another vote to continue this item to 10
next week. Another motion? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: I’ll make a motion. I’ll make a motion to continue this item with 13
additional speakers at the Chair’s discretion until our next meeting on August 28. Is it for sure? 14
Okay. Yeah. 15
16
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Can I have a second? 1
2
Commissioner Akin: Second. 3
4
Chair Chang: Discussion. Okay. Ms. Dao. 5
6
Veronica Dao: Vice-Chair Reckdahl? 7
8
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yes. 9
10
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Summa? 11
12
Commissioner Summa: Yes. 13
14
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Lu? 15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Commissioner Lu: Yes. 2
3
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Hechtman? 4
5
Commissioner Hechtman: Yes. 6
7
Veronica Dao: Chair Chang? 8
9
Chair Chang: Yes. 10
11
Veronica Dao: Commissioner Akin? 12
13
Commissioner Akin: Yes. 14
15
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Veronica Dao: Motion carries 6-0. 1
2
Chair Chang: Great. Thank you. Okay. So now I think we have a few more items left on our 3
agenda. We have to approve some minutes. So the minutes that we need to improve – the first 4
set are the Draft Summary Minutes of January 31, 2024. We are clearly pretty far behind. 5
6
APPROVAL OF MINUTES 7
Public Comment is Permitted. Three (3) minutes per speaker. 8
9
5. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary Minutes of 10
January 31, 2024 11
12
6. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary Minutes of 13
February 28, 2024 14
15
7. Approval of Planning & Transportation Commission Draft Summary Minutes of May 8, 16
2024 17
18
Commissioner Hechtman: I move approval as revised. 19
20
Commissioner Akin: Second. 21
22
Chair Chang: Ms. Dao, could you please call the vote? What? 23
24
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Jonathan Lait: You can just do a voice vote. 1
2
Chair Chang: Okay. 3
4
Jonathan Lait: All in favor. 5
6
Chair Chang: Great. All in favor? 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Aye. 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Aye. 11
12
Commissioner Akin: Aye. 13
14
Commissioner Summa: Aye. 15
16
Chair Chang; Aye. 17
18
Commissioner Lu: Aye. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: All opposed? The motion passes unanimously. 1
2
Commissioner Hechtman: 6-0 3
4
Chair Chang: 6-0. For those – unanimously for those here. The next set of minutes are Summary 5
Minutes of February 28, 2024. 6
7
Commissioner Hechtman: Move approval as revised. 8
9
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Second. 10
11
Chair Chang; All in favor? 12
13
Commissioner Hechtman: Aye. 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Aye. 16
17
Commissioner Akin: Aye. 18
19
Commissioner Summa: Aye. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang; Aye. 2
3
Commissioner Lu: Aye. 4
5
Chair Chang: All opposed. Motion passes 6-0. The third set of minutes is for the Draft Summary 6
Minutes of May 8, 2024. 7
8
Commissioner Hechtman: Move approval as revised 9
10
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Second. 11
12
Chair Chang; All in favor? 13
14
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Aye. 15
16
Commissioner Hechtman: Aye. 17
18
Commissioner Summa: Aye. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Chair Chang: Aye. 1
2
Commissioner Akin: Aye. 3
4
Chair Chang: All opposed? 5
6
Commissioner Lu: I’ll abstain technically. 7
8
Chair Chang: Okay. So the motion passes 5-0-1, with Commissioner Lu abstaining. All right. 9
Finally. We reach the last item, which is Commissioner Questions, Comments, Announcements, 10
or Future Meetings and Agendas. And I just want to say that this was Ms. French’s last meeting 11
with us as – oh, she’s still here. Whoa. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Wow. So dedicated. 14
15
Commissioner Questions, Comments or Announcements 16
Chair Chang: Yes. Seriously dedicated. So this is Ms. French’s last ever PTC meeting and she’s – 17
because she is retiring after, I believe, 27 years of service in Palo Alto. And she unfortunately 18
couldn’t be here today because she is ill with COVID, but she stuck around to the bitter end. 19
And so it’s just a – you can see just in [inaudible 321:21] dedication to Palo Alto and to serving 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
the PTC and we, as the PTC, want to thank her for her many, many, many years of service for all 1
of the knowledge that she brought us, all the coaching that she provided all of us, all of the 2
institutional memory that she gave to us. And we have a card here and a gift here for you that 3
we will make sure makes its way to you. I’m trying to hold it up. Can you see it? We’re very 4
small I think on your screen. We got something here we purchased for you and that all the 5
Commissioners, including Commissioner Templeton, who’s not here tonight, contributed for 6
the gift. 7
8
Commissioner Summa: From a local shop. 9
10
Chair Chang: From a local shop because we wanted to support local retail. 11
12
Commissioner Hechtman: But it wasn’t a sleep pod shop. 13
14
Chair Chang: Okay. Would anybody else like to say something because I think this is pretty 15
momentum. 16
17
Commissioner Summa: Thank you, Amy. I hope you’re feeling better soon. 18
19
Amy French: Thank you. 20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
1
Chair Chang: Commissioner Akin. 2
3
Commissioner Akin: I made up a longer speech. So I’ve known Ms. French for much longer than 4
I’ve been on the PTC thanks to this really challenging project we worked on a long time ago. I 5
was so impressed with her knowledge, her integrity, her patience, and her sense of humor that 6
joining the PTC was more interesting just because she was serving as liaison. Thank you not only 7
for the immense body of work that you completed but also for making all of us better 8
Commissioners. Have a fantastic retirement and I’m looking to you to see how it really should 9
be done. Thanks. 10
11
Amy French: Thank you. 12
13
Chair Chang: Anybody else like to speak? Commissioner Reckdahl. 14
15
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yeah, just – I’ve only been on the Commission now for three years but I 16
have enjoyed my interactions with you. You’ve – if you don’t know the question, you diligently 17
get back to me. I appreciate that. You’re just a joy to work with. I will miss you. Go out to 18
Europe, have a good time, and don’t think about PTC at all. 19
20
_______________________
1. Spokespersons that are representing a group of five or more people who are identified as present at the meeting at
the time of the spokesperson’s presentation will be allowed up to fifteen (15) minutes at the discretion of the Chair, provided
that the non-speaking members agree not to speak individually.
2. The Chair may limit Oral Communications to 30 minutes for all combined speakers.
3. The Chair may reduce the allowed time to speak to three minutes to accommodate a larger number of speakers.
Commissioner Summa: And don’t let them drag you back here. 1
2
Amy French: Thank you. 3
4
Commissioner Lu: Thank you, Amy, so much for getting me up to speed, getting all of us up to 5
speed. Helping move us along. Helping the city so much. I’m really grateful. Thank you, Amy. 6
7
Amy French: Thanks, George. 8
9
Chair Chang: Okay. So I think that’s a wrap for tonight. Amy, have a great time in Ireland. We 10
hope that you are recovered well and that you can enjoy that trip and also congratulations on 11
your retirement. All right. With that, tonight’s meeting is adjourned. 12
13
Vice-Chair Reckdahl: Yay. 14
15
Chair Chang: Thank you, Amy. 16
17
Adjournment 18
10:47 PM 19
20
/ls 21